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I ran into this today. Not only is Chase forcing me to opt into a 125 page agreement [0] in order to log in to my account—say, to pay my bill or check my balan

I ran into this today. Not only is Chase forcing me to opt into a 125 page agreement [0] in order to log in to my account—say, to pay my bill or check my balance—but that agreement has a new arbitration clause. The arbitration clause says you can opt out within 60 days but gives no instructions for how to do so. Not even an email address to contact. I would love to log into my account tonight but won't until I know I can opt out of arbitration. This upsets me, maybe more than it should, and I'm thinking of dropping Chase. Anyone else? [0]: https://static.chasecdn.com/content/dam/legal-agreements/library/en/dsa_la/versions/dsa_la.pdf https://static.chasecdn.com/content/dam/legal-agreements/lib...

nathanaldensr 3y ago
There's no escape from this trend except through legislation.
- iamdamian 3y ago
  I agree with you. I also believe that raising the alarm via social media is a good first step toward building shared understanding and focus on this problem.
  - nsriv 3y ago
    Highly recommend organizing people that are similarly alarmed or affected into filing complaints with the U.S. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau: https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/ https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- shanekandy 3y ago
  While that's true in some regard, there are alternatives. I joined a local credit union for my banking over a decade ago and I have never looked back. There is a nationwide network, so I can bank anywhere. I have not noticed much if any difference from investment banks in any negative way. It's nice to know that my money is working in the community and that I'm an owner!
  - throwaway2037 3y ago
    local credit union Sounds good. Can you share the name? Others here may be interested.
    - pixelatedindex 3y ago
      You can find credit unions close to you by looking for them up here: https://mapping.ncua.gov/ https://mapping.ncua.gov/
- riku_iki 3y ago
  9 out 10 times new legislation will be in favor of rich and corps who put money in lobbying and supporting politicians. They may wrap it into some cool language like Protection of Citizen Rights Act 2024.
throwaw1yyy 3y ago
I switched to Capital One recently. Have a friend who works there. However the best bank I ever used was I believe a smaller bank, 5/3rd. 5/3rd had the best service a non bloated mobile app and good rates on loans/mortgages. Moved out of the country so I closed the account but I do miss that bank
- rplst8 3y ago
  5/3rd has some suuuuper sketchy loan terms that caught my parents up during a refi on the mortgage for their primary residence. I do not recommend that bank, at all.
  - SkyPuncher 3y ago
    I have mixed feelings about 5/3. Overall, they're a fine bank and they service their own loans. We've had two mortgages with them and had not major issues with the mortgages themselves. That being said, we had a lot of professionalism/ethical concerns with our most recent loan originator/agent with 5/3. This person seems to have intentionally misrepresented my wife and I's profession on the internal loan application to qualify us for a better rate. This was only caught well into the process when underwriting asked for proof of said profession (which of course I couldn't provide since I never claimed to be of said profession). We ended up having to restart the entire application process 10 days out from closing. It seems to have been a one-off situation, as this person's manager ended up taking over and was _fantastic_. We pulled everything together in some unbelievably short amount of time. Our prior loan was smooth as heck with them and they've serviced the loan the entire duration.
    - geoelectric 3y ago
      Not to defend the bank, as I don’t know them, but that does sound like it could be a single bad actor. If they have checks that caught the misrepresentation in your case, it seems unlikely they condone it broadly. Sounds like the agent was either ignorant or foolish to have even tried it.
      - 3y ago
toomuchtodo 3y ago
If you don’t need lending products (mortgage, auto), I recommend Fidelity. Cash Management account is a better checking account, and you can hold money market funds instead of a savings account. Wires in and out are free. Checks are free. Easy to buy brokered CDs and US treasuries (which you buy will depend on your investment objectives and if your state has an income tax). Customer service is domestic and helpful. Branches are not everywhere, but you should be able to accomplish everything online or via mail (ie depositing a check that exceeds mobile deposit limits of $100k daily). No Zelle though, will need to hold an account elsewhere to have that capability.
- GavinMcG 3y ago
  Is Fidelity a bank that is FDIC insured?
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Cash held in their cash management account is FDIC insured up to $5M when all partner banks are enabled for their sweep program. Otherwise, traditional limits apply. https://www.fidelity.com/why-fidelity/safeguarding-your-accounts https://www.fidelity.com/why-fidelity/safeguarding-your-acco...
  - jon_richards 3y ago
    This particular account will actually automatically split your money between several FDIC insured banks, effectively massively raising the limit.
- captainkrtek 3y ago
  Do they offer some kind of debit card to access the cash account from an ATM?
  - kccqzy 3y ago
    Yes. They even reimburse you for ATM fees charged by owners of the ATM. Same thing with Schwab. Both also have outstanding customer service.
godelski 3y ago
> forcing me to opt into a 125 page agreement There's a weird legal issue that I don't get why it is widely accepted. Why is an average person expected to understand legalize? There is absolutely no reason to believe the average person a) reads that whole thing (clear dark pattern) and b) understands the whole thing. Even intelligent people! Because it is lawyer language written for lawyers. It is like expecting the average person (not on HN) to be able to tell you what metadata is or how machine learning models work (okay maybe HN too ;). How do we not see these as patterns of deciept and taking advantage of people? We live in a highly specialized world and that has been great, but we can't reasonable expect people to comprehend these decisions. It comes down to some combination of trust, naivety, and arm twisting in the end, and this shouldn't be seen as okay.
- anytime5704 3y ago
  Isn’t this one of the reasons why privacy agreements/terms of use often don’t hold up in court when tested? Fwiw, I agree it’s scummy and the average person is likely to rollover because they think they already agreed to ____.
  - jahewson 3y ago
    They absolutely do hold up in court. In recent years multiple US courts have found even browsewrap licenses to be enforceable.
    - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
      you probably should not use the word absolutely regarding legal issues on a site that, while strongly biased towards the U.S., actually international. This specific situation is of course in reference to the U.S so the following pertains https://ironcladapp.com/journal/contracts/terms-and-conditions-legally-binding/ https://ironcladapp.com/journal/contracts/terms-and-conditio... and actually I'm not sure if this fulfills the conditions of a contract? >According to contract law, in order for a contract to be valid, there must be an offer, consideration, and acceptance. Being able to prove your customer accepted your terms (and therefore entered a contract with you) will determine whether or not your Terms and Conditions are enforceable. In this case someone is accessing their account, not signing up for an account, not purchasing anything - so not sure if there is actually an offer or consideration the way there would be if a user purchased a pair of shoes.
3abiton 3y ago
You probably know the answer, the only way to send a message
k0k0 3y ago
> but gives no instructions for how to do so. Not even an email address to contact. Yes it does, under: Can I (customer) cancel or opt out of this agreement to arbitrate? "If you want to opt out, go to the Legal Agreements and Disclosures section of your chase.com or jpmorganonline.com profile or on Chase Mobile or JP Morgan Mobile." On the lower left side bar of the desktop/full site in small print is the legal agreements and disclosures link. That page has the link for the Arbitration opt-out https://imgur.com/a/6QRp4vJ https://imgur.com/a/6QRp4vJ Oh and let's be clear - Chase is an absolute trash bank. I have no idea why anyone would waste time with their retail deposit or savings products. However Chase does offer some of the best travel Credit Card products in the US, the only one directly competing with them is Amex and they are not a great worldwide traveling card, Capitol One is close but not quite. Chases' customer service is a mixed bag, but it's on par or better than most of the competition (say, Citi, ugh).
- Izkata 3y ago
  > I have no idea why anyone would waste time with their retail deposit or savings products. I regularly get offers from them in the mail, free money if I open an account. I imagine some people are going for it then just stay.
- k-nearest-food 3y ago
  hm so the user have to know about / find this? how about putting a simple "disagree" button?
- Gabrys1 3y ago
  If there's someone taking recommendations, I'm gonna recommend Capital One. When I was new to the US it was the only bank that wanted to give me a credit card (even Citi didn't even though I had an established credit history from Citibank in Poland). As I built my credit score, I got the credit limit increased, the WebApp is very reasonable, I used fraud protection a few times which worked (got my money back and credit card replaced after the CC was used to buy some things I didn't authorize). And they have a zero-fee foreign currency transactions that still give you cashback. It's really good (from my perspective). The only downside is they require an US phone number to use the products (on top of SSN)
throwaway2037 3y ago
I suggest that you file a complaint. It is not very difficult to do, and your case is very strong. Even the 125 page agreement is ridiculous. I find it hard to believe this would be upheld in court. There simply no way that customers are reading the full document before agreeing. HOWTOs from official US gov't websites: https://ask.fdic.gov/fdicinformationandsupportcenter/s/article/Q-How-do-I-file-a-complaint-against-a-bank?language=en_US https://ask.fdic.gov/fdicinformationandsupportcenter/s/artic... https://www.usa.gov/bank-credit-complaints https://www.usa.gov/bank-credit-complaints https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/credit_12666.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/credit_12666.htm
- jahewson 3y ago
  > I find it hard to believe this would be upheld in court. I think you mean in arbitration.
  - martin8412 3y ago
    No, court. If the contract is found unenforceable, it will be in court.
datavirtue 3y ago
Contact the CFPB. HN is useless for this.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

nathanaldensr 3y ago

There's no escape from this trend except through legislation.

iamdamian 3y ago
I agree with you. I also believe that raising the alarm via social media is a good first step toward building shared understanding and focus on this problem.
- nsriv 3y ago
  Highly recommend organizing people that are similarly alarmed or affected into filing complaints with the U.S. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau: https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/ https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
shanekandy 3y ago
While that's true in some regard, there are alternatives. I joined a local credit union for my banking over a decade ago and I have never looked back. There is a nationwide network, so I can bank anywhere. I have not noticed much if any difference from investment banks in any negative way. It's nice to know that my money is working in the community and that I'm an owner!
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  local credit union Sounds good. Can you share the name? Others here may be interested.
  - pixelatedindex 3y ago
    You can find credit unions close to you by looking for them up here: https://mapping.ncua.gov/ https://mapping.ncua.gov/
riku_iki 3y ago
9 out 10 times new legislation will be in favor of rich and corps who put money in lobbying and supporting politicians. They may wrap it into some cool language like Protection of Citizen Rights Act 2024.

throwaw1yyy 3y ago

I switched to Capital One recently. Have a friend who works there. However the best bank I ever used was I believe a smaller bank, 5/3rd. 5/3rd had the best service a non bloated mobile app and good rates on loans/mortgages. Moved out of the country so I closed the account but I do miss that bank

rplst8 3y ago
5/3rd has some suuuuper sketchy loan terms that caught my parents up during a refi on the mortgage for their primary residence. I do not recommend that bank, at all.
- SkyPuncher 3y ago
  I have mixed feelings about 5/3. Overall, they're a fine bank and they service their own loans. We've had two mortgages with them and had not major issues with the mortgages themselves. That being said, we had a lot of professionalism/ethical concerns with our most recent loan originator/agent with 5/3. This person seems to have intentionally misrepresented my wife and I's profession on the internal loan application to qualify us for a better rate. This was only caught well into the process when underwriting asked for proof of said profession (which of course I couldn't provide since I never claimed to be of said profession). We ended up having to restart the entire application process 10 days out from closing. It seems to have been a one-off situation, as this person's manager ended up taking over and was _fantastic_. We pulled everything together in some unbelievably short amount of time. Our prior loan was smooth as heck with them and they've serviced the loan the entire duration.
  - geoelectric 3y ago
    Not to defend the bank, as I don’t know them, but that does sound like it could be a single bad actor. If they have checks that caught the misrepresentation in your case, it seems unlikely they condone it broadly. Sounds like the agent was either ignorant or foolish to have even tried it.
    - 3y ago

toomuchtodo 3y ago

If you don’t need lending products (mortgage, auto), I recommend Fidelity. Cash Management account is a better checking account, and you can hold money market funds instead of a savings account. Wires in and out are free. Checks are free. Easy to buy brokered CDs and US treasuries (which you buy will depend on your investment objectives and if your state has an income tax). Customer service is domestic and helpful. Branches are not everywhere, but you should be able to accomplish everything online or via mail (ie depositing a check that exceeds mobile deposit limits of $100k daily). No Zelle though, will need to hold an account elsewhere to have that capability.

GavinMcG 3y ago
Is Fidelity a bank that is FDIC insured?
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Cash held in their cash management account is FDIC insured up to $5M when all partner banks are enabled for their sweep program. Otherwise, traditional limits apply. https://www.fidelity.com/why-fidelity/safeguarding-your-accounts https://www.fidelity.com/why-fidelity/safeguarding-your-acco...
- jon_richards 3y ago
  This particular account will actually automatically split your money between several FDIC insured banks, effectively massively raising the limit.
captainkrtek 3y ago
Do they offer some kind of debit card to access the cash account from an ATM?
- kccqzy 3y ago
  Yes. They even reimburse you for ATM fees charged by owners of the ATM. Same thing with Schwab. Both also have outstanding customer service.

godelski 3y ago

> forcing me to opt into a 125 page agreement There's a weird legal issue that I don't get why it is widely accepted. Why is an average person expected to understand legalize? There is absolutely no reason to believe the average person a) reads that whole thing (clear dark pattern) and b) understands the whole thing. Even intelligent people! Because it is lawyer language written for lawyers. It is like expecting the average person (not on HN) to be able to tell you what metadata is or how machine learning models work (okay maybe HN too ;). How do we not see these as patterns of deciept and taking advantage of people? We live in a highly specialized world and that has been great, but we can't reasonable expect people to comprehend these decisions. It comes down to some combination of trust, naivety, and arm twisting in the end, and this shouldn't be seen as okay.

anytime5704 3y ago
Isn’t this one of the reasons why privacy agreements/terms of use often don’t hold up in court when tested? Fwiw, I agree it’s scummy and the average person is likely to rollover because they think they already agreed to ____.
- jahewson 3y ago
  They absolutely do hold up in court. In recent years multiple US courts have found even browsewrap licenses to be enforceable.
  - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
    you probably should not use the word absolutely regarding legal issues on a site that, while strongly biased towards the U.S., actually international. This specific situation is of course in reference to the U.S so the following pertains https://ironcladapp.com/journal/contracts/terms-and-conditions-legally-binding/ https://ironcladapp.com/journal/contracts/terms-and-conditio... and actually I'm not sure if this fulfills the conditions of a contract? >According to contract law, in order for a contract to be valid, there must be an offer, consideration, and acceptance. Being able to prove your customer accepted your terms (and therefore entered a contract with you) will determine whether or not your Terms and Conditions are enforceable. In this case someone is accessing their account, not signing up for an account, not purchasing anything - so not sure if there is actually an offer or consideration the way there would be if a user purchased a pair of shoes.

3abiton 3y ago

You probably know the answer, the only way to send a message

k0k0 3y ago

> but gives no instructions for how to do so. Not even an email address to contact. Yes it does, under: Can I (customer) cancel or opt out of this agreement to arbitrate? "If you want to opt out, go to the Legal Agreements and Disclosures section of your chase.com or jpmorganonline.com profile or on Chase Mobile or JP Morgan Mobile." On the lower left side bar of the desktop/full site in small print is the legal agreements and disclosures link. That page has the link for the Arbitration opt-out https://imgur.com/a/6QRp4vJ https://imgur.com/a/6QRp4vJ Oh and let's be clear - Chase is an absolute trash bank. I have no idea why anyone would waste time with their retail deposit or savings products. However Chase does offer some of the best travel Credit Card products in the US, the only one directly competing with them is Amex and they are not a great worldwide traveling card, Capitol One is close but not quite. Chases' customer service is a mixed bag, but it's on par or better than most of the competition (say, Citi, ugh).

Izkata 3y ago
> I have no idea why anyone would waste time with their retail deposit or savings products. I regularly get offers from them in the mail, free money if I open an account. I imagine some people are going for it then just stay.
k-nearest-food 3y ago
hm so the user have to know about / find this? how about putting a simple "disagree" button?
Gabrys1 3y ago
If there's someone taking recommendations, I'm gonna recommend Capital One. When I was new to the US it was the only bank that wanted to give me a credit card (even Citi didn't even though I had an established credit history from Citibank in Poland). As I built my credit score, I got the credit limit increased, the WebApp is very reasonable, I used fraud protection a few times which worked (got my money back and credit card replaced after the CC was used to buy some things I didn't authorize). And they have a zero-fee foreign currency transactions that still give you cashback. It's really good (from my perspective). The only downside is they require an US phone number to use the products (on top of SSN)

throwaway2037 3y ago

I suggest that you file a complaint. It is not very difficult to do, and your case is very strong. Even the 125 page agreement is ridiculous. I find it hard to believe this would be upheld in court. There simply no way that customers are reading the full document before agreeing. HOWTOs from official US gov't websites: https://ask.fdic.gov/fdicinformationandsupportcenter/s/article/Q-How-do-I-file-a-complaint-against-a-bank?language=en_US https://ask.fdic.gov/fdicinformationandsupportcenter/s/artic... https://www.usa.gov/bank-credit-complaints https://www.usa.gov/bank-credit-complaints https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/credit_12666.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/credit_12666.htm

jahewson 3y ago
> I find it hard to believe this would be upheld in court. I think you mean in arbitration.
- martin8412 3y ago
  No, court. If the contract is found unenforceable, it will be in court.

datavirtue 3y ago

Contact the CFPB. HN is useless for this.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]