7 ms·

Are you an Asker or a Guesser? (2010)

85 points by horseradish 3y ago

horseradish 3y ago
This is the post the article is based on: https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-between-FU-and-Welcome#830421 https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-bet...
ftxbro 3y ago
are you someone who gets people to do things for you or are you someone who does things for other people
asicsp 3y ago
See also: https://jeanhsu.substack.com/p/ask-vs-guess-culture https://jeanhsu.substack.com/p/ask-vs-guess-culture https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37176703 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37176703 (946 points | 19 days ago | 479 comments)
dt3ft 3y ago
> This column will change your life Nope. Nothing changed. Where do I submit a formal complaint?
- 0xfae 3y ago
  Did you read every article that's part of the column? Does every advertisement or claim about a product upset you?
- dang 3y ago
  "Please don't pick the most provocative thing in an article or post to complain about in the thread. Find something interesting to respond to instead." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
timeagain 3y ago
The article discusses how agonizing it must be for a guesser when they have to say no to something. But something I have been dealing with recently is actually the reverse—the resentment a guesser feels when told “no”. Because in their mind, they have done the math and think they have correctly deduced they should receive a “yes”. Forthwrmore, since they don’t like saying “no”, they project this on their rejector and take it personally. As a diehard “asker” I can’t help but see “guessing” as narcissistic. Why would you presume you know what I want? Of course from the other side “asking” can be seen as self centered—why can’t they read the room?
- bibanez 3y ago
  As someone from a guesser culture, being nice is refreshing. I enjoy giving surprises and not expecting something in return. It's different when you're at a dinner party and someone doesn't collaborate or collaborates very little, because we expect everyone to know about the shared burdens. The thing with this system is that it allows for more flexibility when everyone is on the same page! We're not narcicisstic, I swear!
  - pdonis 3y ago
    > it allows for more flexibility when everyone is on the same page Yes, but that qualifier is crucial, as the Metafilter post referenced upthread points out: "Guess behaviors only work among a subset of other Guess people -- ones who share a fairly specific set of expectations and signalling techniques. The farther you get from your own family and friends and subculture, the more you'll have to embrace Ask behavior." In fact, as the scenario described in the Metafilter thread shows, even sharing considerable background doesn't always make Guess work. The wife and the friend in the scenario were from the same home town and knew each other's families, but the wife's attempts to hint, in Guess fashion, that the friend wasn't a welcome visitor didn't take, and now the wife and husband are struggling with the (necessary in this case) switch to Ask behavior (or more precisely the correct Ask response, which is to Just Say No instead of hinting).
- unsupp0rted 3y ago
  A good guesser should realize that "no" is always a possibility.
dav_Oz 3y ago
While Japan is the most obvious "Guess culture" for Westerners. My favourite example of a "Guess culture" is that of Iranian taarof[0]: Another example occurs if a Western individual is not familiar with taarof in Iranian culture. When an Iranian individual is offering taarof, it is to first view it as a sincere offer with the hope of decline up to four or five times. If the individual offers more than five times, it can be concluded that the individual is not doing taarof, and the opposite side should respectfully thank that individual and accept the offer with gratitude. In that example one has to decline about 5 times (!) to be sure the offer is genuine, most people unfamiliar with that custom will take the offer the second or third time or will be enraged that they don't understand a "No, thank you". The most laborious combination is a "genuine offer" and you deciding to decline it. The person signaling the genuine offer will try to double down, - so expect an 8th time - until your genuine rejection is "accepted" and while you are at it firmly holding your ground try to sneak in a counter-offer, too ;) In the end you will end up most likely accepting a "symbolic offer" of the genuine offer. E.g. if you decline a ride you are offered genuinely (say because you want to have a comfortable ride with a taxi), you can decline eventually by accepting the symbolic offer that e.g. a taxi is called up for you. Pretty hard to figure out if you are coming from an ask culture. [0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taarof https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taarof
- 0xfae 3y ago
  As someone who grew up in America (typically ask culture) but also grew up in a very guess culture family, subculture and religion (Utah Mormons), this seems insane to me. I grew up guess culture so I understand it, but ask culture is so much clearer/concise/kinder in my opinion. Less likely to be misunderstood and build resentment, etc. The wikipedia article states the "Taarof is a ritual politeness that levels the playing field and promotes equality in a hierarchical culture" but the expectation that you repeatedly say no to something that is being offered and that you want out of social nicety seems nonsensical, and I don't see how it promotes equality. Can someone shed some light on this?
  - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
    If things are regularly being offered with the expectation that they'll be declined, or declined in expectation that they'll be eventually accepted, it allows for wiggle room where somebody can choose to break the social expectation, in effect burning some of their reputation in exchange for fulfilling a short-term need.
corobo 3y ago
I wonder if there's any correlation, causation, whatever, between the guesser segment of the population and socially disrupting mental disorders. Autism, ADHD, etc. Giving it a quick think with the people I know (given that I don't know the mental health status of people without diagnoses) it's an almost perfect split. A secondary wonder comes in due to the theory of mind deficit that can come with those disorders - thinking, or guessing, that other people have the same information you do even if it's not been communicated https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind Maybe sprinkle in some illusion of transparency too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion_of_transparency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion_of_transparency Of course there are a billion other variables, just a possible pattern that popped into mind as I was reading the article. It could just be that people who socialise less in general are more likely to become guessers possibly (Caveman programming: If you ask for something and get rejected you are risking your position in the tribe)
- ics 3y ago
  Many variables indeed but it's an interesting thought to consider. In my experience friends and relatives with autism are hard askers and those with diagnosed ADHD/OCD/related are all guessers without exception.
  - corobo 3y ago
    Fair point I may have excessively grouped, admittedly my circles skew a bit ADHD heavy
  - awkward 3y ago
    Many people with ADHD suffer from rejection sensitive dysphoria - often an unexpected "no" will wreck their day. Limiting dependence on others and over-preparing for a big ask is a way to protect their own mental well being.
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      > often an unexpected "no" will wreck their day I have ADHD and RSD and this is me when asking anything: https://twitter.com/sensorystories_/status/1695614951937740983 https://twitter.com/sensorystories_/status/16956149519377409...
k__ 3y ago
I guess. I read docs, I read code, I read SO questions, I read forum posts, I read blog posts, I read chat histories, I read GitHub issues. And then, after I lost 1h-20h I ask someone. Why? When I started programming, people didn't help me. They were angry when I didn't know things. They laughed at me when I didn't know things. They explained things very badly. They didn't have time to explain things. They didn't know what they were doing themselves.
- jagged-chisel 3y ago
  Similar here. People still get annoyed when I ask. Dude, I’m just trying to save time. You can say “I don’t know” and I’ll go read. You don’t have to talk in circles, you don’t have the make something up (that will often be wrong), just admit the truth.
  - chankstein38 3y ago
    Right? I hate when I ask someone something and their response is to go way overboard in answering. "Do you have time for a 30min video call to talk about it?" kinds of things. I mean, obviously it's appreciated but if you don't know (just say so) or if it's that massive just point me at an article or a nice reference pull request or something.
    - JuanPosadas 3y ago
      The "I can't communicate anything without a full video chat" types are the worst for sure.
      - LoganDark 3y ago
        The "video" types are the worst. Talk to me over text only. Phone calls are also unacceptable.
  - mgaunard 3y ago
    You should do your own research before disrupting others. It's basic politeness.
kens 3y ago
The idea of Ask and Guess cultures seems reasonable, if the Asker will accept a no. However, it's easy for Ask culture to slip into Ask, followed by Ask again, "but why not?", "but you should", "but you did that for someone else", and so forth.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- dilyevsky 3y ago
  This is obviously someone from the nagger culture
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
_def 3y ago
Weird. I think I'm a bit of both. Which probably explains a lot why some "guessers" have a hard time with me sometimes.
a1o 3y ago
Someone mentioned last time this or similar was posted and I agree that this division is totally written from the Asker perspective. Using "guesser" is a deprecating word. It's the person that has empathy and think about others.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  No, I think you're missing the point the neither is correct/better, and it's certainly not about which one is more empathetic or thoughtful. "Guesser" doesn't seem deprecating at all. You might as well say "asker" sounds demanding and impertinent, but it's not meant to be either. And you could just as easily say that askers are the ones who empathize and think about others because they want to avoid misunderstandings and stress by just being direct. But at the end of the day, it's just different communication styles. It's a valid and real distinction, and neither is "right". Or, they're both right.
  - a1o 3y ago
    You are missing the point, the "Asker" can be a demanding idiot, but if you frame as "just asking" it tries to absorb any blame as it puts the burden of figuring out things at whoever has to answer. I think this dynamic analysis is written from an "Asker" perspective and this reflects in the choice of words.
    - crazygringo 3y ago
      No I'm sorry but you are continuing to miss the point. Sure, the asker can be a "demanding idiot". But a guesser can also expect everyone to be able to read their mind -- which is being just as much of a "demanding idiot". You seem to actually be insisting that one cultural pattern is better than the other, when there's simply no objective basis for that assertion whatsoever. You're concluding that the article/analysis is written from one bias, but I think it's actually revealing your own personal bias here. The article seems entirely objective and neutral to both viewpoints, whereas your reactions are clearly not.
tehnub 3y ago
A certain degree of guess culture is required. No one would be happy living in a "culture" where it's normal to ask the person you're talking to "Hey, can I punch you in the face?" every five minutes — if you don't ask how could you be sure? It seems to me that the more a culture leans toward guess, the better.
- em-bee 3y ago
  It seems to me that the more a culture leans toward guess, the better. it's just as bad when you can't ask. it really doesn't help if your subordinates try to guess what you meant because they are afraid to ask for clarifications.
paint 3y ago
I'm an asker

85 points by horseradish 3y ago

This is the post the article is based on: https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-between-FU-and-Welcome#830421 https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-bet...

ftxbro 3y ago

are you someone who gets people to do things for you or are you someone who does things for other people

asicsp 3y ago

See also: https://jeanhsu.substack.com/p/ask-vs-guess-culture https://jeanhsu.substack.com/p/ask-vs-guess-culture https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37176703 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37176703 (946 points | 19 days ago | 479 comments)

dt3ft 3y ago

> This column will change your life Nope. Nothing changed. Where do I submit a formal complaint?

0xfae 3y ago
Did you read every article that's part of the column? Does every advertisement or claim about a product upset you?
dang 3y ago
"Please don't pick the most provocative thing in an article or post to complain about in the thread. Find something interesting to respond to instead." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

timeagain 3y ago

The article discusses how agonizing it must be for a guesser when they have to say no to something. But something I have been dealing with recently is actually the reverse—the resentment a guesser feels when told “no”. Because in their mind, they have done the math and think they have correctly deduced they should receive a “yes”. Forthwrmore, since they don’t like saying “no”, they project this on their rejector and take it personally. As a diehard “asker” I can’t help but see “guessing” as narcissistic. Why would you presume you know what I want? Of course from the other side “asking” can be seen as self centered—why can’t they read the room?

bibanez 3y ago
As someone from a guesser culture, being nice is refreshing. I enjoy giving surprises and not expecting something in return. It's different when you're at a dinner party and someone doesn't collaborate or collaborates very little, because we expect everyone to know about the shared burdens. The thing with this system is that it allows for more flexibility when everyone is on the same page! We're not narcicisstic, I swear!
- pdonis 3y ago
  > it allows for more flexibility when everyone is on the same page Yes, but that qualifier is crucial, as the Metafilter post referenced upthread points out: "Guess behaviors only work among a subset of other Guess people -- ones who share a fairly specific set of expectations and signalling techniques. The farther you get from your own family and friends and subculture, the more you'll have to embrace Ask behavior." In fact, as the scenario described in the Metafilter thread shows, even sharing considerable background doesn't always make Guess work. The wife and the friend in the scenario were from the same home town and knew each other's families, but the wife's attempts to hint, in Guess fashion, that the friend wasn't a welcome visitor didn't take, and now the wife and husband are struggling with the (necessary in this case) switch to Ask behavior (or more precisely the correct Ask response, which is to Just Say No instead of hinting).
unsupp0rted 3y ago
A good guesser should realize that "no" is always a possibility.

dav_Oz 3y ago

While Japan is the most obvious "Guess culture" for Westerners. My favourite example of a "Guess culture" is that of Iranian taarof[0]: Another example occurs if a Western individual is not familiar with taarof in Iranian culture. When an Iranian individual is offering taarof, it is to first view it as a sincere offer with the hope of decline up to four or five times. If the individual offers more than five times, it can be concluded that the individual is not doing taarof, and the opposite side should respectfully thank that individual and accept the offer with gratitude. In that example one has to decline about 5 times (!) to be sure the offer is genuine, most people unfamiliar with that custom will take the offer the second or third time or will be enraged that they don't understand a "No, thank you". The most laborious combination is a "genuine offer" and you deciding to decline it. The person signaling the genuine offer will try to double down, - so expect an 8th time - until your genuine rejection is "accepted" and while you are at it firmly holding your ground try to sneak in a counter-offer, too ;) In the end you will end up most likely accepting a "symbolic offer" of the genuine offer. E.g. if you decline a ride you are offered genuinely (say because you want to have a comfortable ride with a taxi), you can decline eventually by accepting the symbolic offer that e.g. a taxi is called up for you. Pretty hard to figure out if you are coming from an ask culture. [0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taarof https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taarof

0xfae 3y ago
As someone who grew up in America (typically ask culture) but also grew up in a very guess culture family, subculture and religion (Utah Mormons), this seems insane to me. I grew up guess culture so I understand it, but ask culture is so much clearer/concise/kinder in my opinion. Less likely to be misunderstood and build resentment, etc. The wikipedia article states the "Taarof is a ritual politeness that levels the playing field and promotes equality in a hierarchical culture" but the expectation that you repeatedly say no to something that is being offered and that you want out of social nicety seems nonsensical, and I don't see how it promotes equality. Can someone shed some light on this?
- OkayPhysicist 3y ago
  If things are regularly being offered with the expectation that they'll be declined, or declined in expectation that they'll be eventually accepted, it allows for wiggle room where somebody can choose to break the social expectation, in effect burning some of their reputation in exchange for fulfilling a short-term need.

corobo 3y ago

I wonder if there's any correlation, causation, whatever, between the guesser segment of the population and socially disrupting mental disorders. Autism, ADHD, etc. Giving it a quick think with the people I know (given that I don't know the mental health status of people without diagnoses) it's an almost perfect split. A secondary wonder comes in due to the theory of mind deficit that can come with those disorders - thinking, or guessing, that other people have the same information you do even if it's not been communicated https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind Maybe sprinkle in some illusion of transparency too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion_of_transparency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion_of_transparency Of course there are a billion other variables, just a possible pattern that popped into mind as I was reading the article. It could just be that people who socialise less in general are more likely to become guessers possibly (Caveman programming: If you ask for something and get rejected you are risking your position in the tribe)

ics 3y ago
Many variables indeed but it's an interesting thought to consider. In my experience friends and relatives with autism are hard askers and those with diagnosed ADHD/OCD/related are all guessers without exception.
- corobo 3y ago
  Fair point I may have excessively grouped, admittedly my circles skew a bit ADHD heavy
- awkward 3y ago
  Many people with ADHD suffer from rejection sensitive dysphoria - often an unexpected "no" will wreck their day. Limiting dependence on others and over-preparing for a big ask is a way to protect their own mental well being.
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    > often an unexpected "no" will wreck their day I have ADHD and RSD and this is me when asking anything: https://twitter.com/sensorystories_/status/1695614951937740983 https://twitter.com/sensorystories_/status/16956149519377409...

k__ 3y ago

I guess. I read docs, I read code, I read SO questions, I read forum posts, I read blog posts, I read chat histories, I read GitHub issues. And then, after I lost 1h-20h I ask someone. Why? When I started programming, people didn't help me. They were angry when I didn't know things. They laughed at me when I didn't know things. They explained things very badly. They didn't have time to explain things. They didn't know what they were doing themselves.

jagged-chisel 3y ago
Similar here. People still get annoyed when I ask. Dude, I’m just trying to save time. You can say “I don’t know” and I’ll go read. You don’t have to talk in circles, you don’t have the make something up (that will often be wrong), just admit the truth.
- chankstein38 3y ago
  Right? I hate when I ask someone something and their response is to go way overboard in answering. "Do you have time for a 30min video call to talk about it?" kinds of things. I mean, obviously it's appreciated but if you don't know (just say so) or if it's that massive just point me at an article or a nice reference pull request or something.
  - JuanPosadas 3y ago
    The "I can't communicate anything without a full video chat" types are the worst for sure.
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      The "video" types are the worst. Talk to me over text only. Phone calls are also unacceptable.
- mgaunard 3y ago
  You should do your own research before disrupting others. It's basic politeness.

kens 3y ago

The idea of Ask and Guess cultures seems reasonable, if the Asker will accept a no. However, it's easy for Ask culture to slip into Ask, followed by Ask again, "but why not?", "but you should", "but you did that for someone else", and so forth.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
dilyevsky 3y ago
This is obviously someone from the nagger culture

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

_def 3y ago

Weird. I think I'm a bit of both. Which probably explains a lot why some "guessers" have a hard time with me sometimes.

a1o 3y ago

Someone mentioned last time this or similar was posted and I agree that this division is totally written from the Asker perspective. Using "guesser" is a deprecating word. It's the person that has empathy and think about others.

crazygringo 3y ago
No, I think you're missing the point the neither is correct/better, and it's certainly not about which one is more empathetic or thoughtful. "Guesser" doesn't seem deprecating at all. You might as well say "asker" sounds demanding and impertinent, but it's not meant to be either. And you could just as easily say that askers are the ones who empathize and think about others because they want to avoid misunderstandings and stress by just being direct. But at the end of the day, it's just different communication styles. It's a valid and real distinction, and neither is "right". Or, they're both right.
- a1o 3y ago
  You are missing the point, the "Asker" can be a demanding idiot, but if you frame as "just asking" it tries to absorb any blame as it puts the burden of figuring out things at whoever has to answer. I think this dynamic analysis is written from an "Asker" perspective and this reflects in the choice of words.
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    No I'm sorry but you are continuing to miss the point. Sure, the asker can be a "demanding idiot". But a guesser can also expect everyone to be able to read their mind -- which is being just as much of a "demanding idiot". You seem to actually be insisting that one cultural pattern is better than the other, when there's simply no objective basis for that assertion whatsoever. You're concluding that the article/analysis is written from one bias, but I think it's actually revealing your own personal bias here. The article seems entirely objective and neutral to both viewpoints, whereas your reactions are clearly not.

tehnub 3y ago

A certain degree of guess culture is required. No one would be happy living in a "culture" where it's normal to ask the person you're talking to "Hey, can I punch you in the face?" every five minutes — if you don't ask how could you be sure? It seems to me that the more a culture leans toward guess, the better.

em-bee 3y ago
It seems to me that the more a culture leans toward guess, the better. it's just as bad when you can't ask. it really doesn't help if your subordinates try to guess what you meant because they are afraid to ask for clarifications.

paint 3y ago

I'm an asker