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> If unemployment did not exist, the capitalist class would have no power to make workers work harder using the threat of losing their jobs. That may be true,

> If unemployment did not exist, the capitalist class would have no power to make workers work harder using the threat of losing their jobs. That may be true, but that is not a condition of capitalism. Like the parent said, capitalism only speaks to ownership rights.

asu_thomas 3y ago
Capitalism is a system in which those who control capital wield the most power, but without cheap enough labor to work the capital for a profit, capitalism will by definition give way to something else. Realize capital has no market value without labor to work it. This goes for real estate too, which workers require to rest themselves just in time to return to work to turn a profit for those that control capital.
- ch4s3 3y ago
  This is a warmed over version of labor theory of value which is at its core wrong. Value is entirely subjective and contextual, and utility is not a function of labor inputs. Moreover high wages simply encourage innovation in labor saving devices and techniques. Tight labor markets aren’t the capitalists enemy. It’s no different than other input costs in some sense.
  - asu_thomas 3y ago
    Labor theory of value is literally just an argument that labor is the historical source of wealth. The terminology here is specific and intentional. Next, Marxists recognize 2 central forms of value: Use value is abstract, but not subjective. Exchange value is contextual. That's it. That's what you need to argue with, instead of your ridiculous straw men above. Additionally, it can hardly be stressed enough how unimportant labor theory of value is for Marxism as a whole.
    - astine 3y ago
      Um, no that's not correct. It's true that the origin of the labor theory of value is philosophers like Locke arguing that labor is the source of all value, but in the context that Marx was writing, Smith and Riccardo had popularized the notion that the market value of a good was proportional to the amount of aggregate labor that went into it. To his credit, Marx demonstrated that the market value of a good was not actually proportional to the amount of labor that went into it but he didn't abandon the idea that value of a good was somehow proportional to the labor used to make it. Marx: "Let us now take two commodities, for example corn and iron. Whatever their echange relation may be, it can always be represented by an equation in which a given quantity of corn is equated to some quantity of iron, for instance 1 quarter of corn == x cwt of iron. What does this equation signifify? It signifies that a common element of identical magnitide exists in two different things, in 1 quarter of corn and similarly in x cwt of iron. Both are therefore equal to a third thing, which in itself is niether the one nor the other. Each of them, so far as it is exchange-value, must therefore be reducible to this third thing. [...] As use-values, commodities differ above all in quality, while as exchange-values they can only differ in quantity, and therefore do not contain an atom of use-value. If then we disregard the use-value of commodities, only one property remains, that of being products of labour." In other words, Marx excludes use-value (what normal economists call "utility") as being a factor in the price of a commodity, apart from needing to exist at all (he reduces its relationship to a boolean relationship,) and makes it a function of labor quantity. This is so central to his argument that it comes up in the first few pages of Capital.
      - jdksmdbtbdnmsm 3y ago
        > and makes it a function of labor quantity Actually he makes it a function of socially necessary labor time. Although I don't buy into labor theory of value, I think the "socially necessary" part is a pretty important part. By the way, what is "his argument?" Parent didn't say it isn't central to one of Karl Marx's many arguments, but rather that it's not central to Marxism, which is far greater than Karl Marx. Marxism is an intellectual tradition largely concerned with critiquing Marx's work just like we're doing here.
      - thiagoharry 3y ago
        Marx always begins describing things in Das Kapital simplifying, and then, in later chapters, expanding the model, concluding that in fact it was more complex than was previously presented. The market value of some item would be proportional to the labor only if you consider an isolated industry as an almost closed system, like Marx did in the first book. At the third book, Marx shows that competition and search for profit would produce a force that equalizes the profits for several industries. In the end, prices cannot anymore be explained by the "value" of the product expressed in labor: several goods will be sold above or below their "value". Even if this value is still the origin of the surplus value that creates profit and growth in the capitalist economy. Marx theory of value is much more elaborated than the one from Smith and Ricardo, and most arguments against it, are in fact arguments against naive and simplified versions of the theory.
    - tptacek 3y ago
      No, that doesn't sound right. The LTV says that commodities have an intrinsic value, and regardless of what their price is, the value of those commodities is determined entirely by the socially necessary labor time that went into producing them.
- randomdata 3y ago
  > Capitalism is a system in which those who control capital wield the most power Capitalism has no concern about power. It only speaks to ownership rights. And, as an aside, what you are envisioning clearly puts the power in the hands of labour. As you said: "Realize capital has no market value without labor to work it."
  - asu_thomas 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - randomdata 3y ago
      Politics, with a P, may be concerned about power, but capitalism starts with the letter C.
      - hardwonjay9877 3y ago
        Rights and ownership are defined and maintained by a state. A state is a monopoly on violence, not by right but by power. In other words, power precedes rights and ownership. Additionally, capitalism is defined by relations to capital, not by relations to mere property. Big difference.
        randomdata 3y ago
        While that may be true, capitalism does not concern itself with power or class or anything like that. It is narrowly focused. It is not some catchall term for anything you happen to observe alongside the ownership rights it speaks to. It's okay to use other words.
        jdksmdbtbdnmsm 3y ago
        By all means, if you think you know what it is then say it.
        philosopher1234 3y ago
- hhjinks 3y ago
  >but without cheap enough labor to work the capital for a profit, capitalism will by definition give way to something else Demonstrate why this is true. What _exactly_ about the definition "private ownership of capital" necessitates that capitalism must give way if capital cannot be worked for profit by cheap labor?

asu_thomas 3y ago

Capitalism is a system in which those who control capital wield the most power, but without cheap enough labor to work the capital for a profit, capitalism will by definition give way to something else. Realize capital has no market value without labor to work it. This goes for real estate too, which workers require to rest themselves just in time to return to work to turn a profit for those that control capital.

ch4s3 3y ago
This is a warmed over version of labor theory of value which is at its core wrong. Value is entirely subjective and contextual, and utility is not a function of labor inputs. Moreover high wages simply encourage innovation in labor saving devices and techniques. Tight labor markets aren’t the capitalists enemy. It’s no different than other input costs in some sense.
- asu_thomas 3y ago
  Labor theory of value is literally just an argument that labor is the historical source of wealth. The terminology here is specific and intentional. Next, Marxists recognize 2 central forms of value: Use value is abstract, but not subjective. Exchange value is contextual. That's it. That's what you need to argue with, instead of your ridiculous straw men above. Additionally, it can hardly be stressed enough how unimportant labor theory of value is for Marxism as a whole.
  - astine 3y ago
    Um, no that's not correct. It's true that the origin of the labor theory of value is philosophers like Locke arguing that labor is the source of all value, but in the context that Marx was writing, Smith and Riccardo had popularized the notion that the market value of a good was proportional to the amount of aggregate labor that went into it. To his credit, Marx demonstrated that the market value of a good was not actually proportional to the amount of labor that went into it but he didn't abandon the idea that value of a good was somehow proportional to the labor used to make it. Marx: "Let us now take two commodities, for example corn and iron. Whatever their echange relation may be, it can always be represented by an equation in which a given quantity of corn is equated to some quantity of iron, for instance 1 quarter of corn == x cwt of iron. What does this equation signifify? It signifies that a common element of identical magnitide exists in two different things, in 1 quarter of corn and similarly in x cwt of iron. Both are therefore equal to a third thing, which in itself is niether the one nor the other. Each of them, so far as it is exchange-value, must therefore be reducible to this third thing. [...] As use-values, commodities differ above all in quality, while as exchange-values they can only differ in quantity, and therefore do not contain an atom of use-value. If then we disregard the use-value of commodities, only one property remains, that of being products of labour." In other words, Marx excludes use-value (what normal economists call "utility") as being a factor in the price of a commodity, apart from needing to exist at all (he reduces its relationship to a boolean relationship,) and makes it a function of labor quantity. This is so central to his argument that it comes up in the first few pages of Capital.
    - jdksmdbtbdnmsm 3y ago
      > and makes it a function of labor quantity Actually he makes it a function of socially necessary labor time. Although I don't buy into labor theory of value, I think the "socially necessary" part is a pretty important part. By the way, what is "his argument?" Parent didn't say it isn't central to one of Karl Marx's many arguments, but rather that it's not central to Marxism, which is far greater than Karl Marx. Marxism is an intellectual tradition largely concerned with critiquing Marx's work just like we're doing here.
    - thiagoharry 3y ago
      Marx always begins describing things in Das Kapital simplifying, and then, in later chapters, expanding the model, concluding that in fact it was more complex than was previously presented. The market value of some item would be proportional to the labor only if you consider an isolated industry as an almost closed system, like Marx did in the first book. At the third book, Marx shows that competition and search for profit would produce a force that equalizes the profits for several industries. In the end, prices cannot anymore be explained by the "value" of the product expressed in labor: several goods will be sold above or below their "value". Even if this value is still the origin of the surplus value that creates profit and growth in the capitalist economy. Marx theory of value is much more elaborated than the one from Smith and Ricardo, and most arguments against it, are in fact arguments against naive and simplified versions of the theory.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    No, that doesn't sound right. The LTV says that commodities have an intrinsic value, and regardless of what their price is, the value of those commodities is determined entirely by the socially necessary labor time that went into producing them.
randomdata 3y ago
> Capitalism is a system in which those who control capital wield the most power Capitalism has no concern about power. It only speaks to ownership rights. And, as an aside, what you are envisioning clearly puts the power in the hands of labour. As you said: "Realize capital has no market value without labor to work it."
- asu_thomas 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - randomdata 3y ago
    Politics, with a P, may be concerned about power, but capitalism starts with the letter C.
    - hardwonjay9877 3y ago
      Rights and ownership are defined and maintained by a state. A state is a monopoly on violence, not by right but by power. In other words, power precedes rights and ownership. Additionally, capitalism is defined by relations to capital, not by relations to mere property. Big difference.
      - randomdata 3y ago
        While that may be true, capitalism does not concern itself with power or class or anything like that. It is narrowly focused. It is not some catchall term for anything you happen to observe alongside the ownership rights it speaks to. It's okay to use other words.
        jdksmdbtbdnmsm 3y ago
        By all means, if you think you know what it is then say it.
        philosopher1234 3y ago
hhjinks 3y ago
>but without cheap enough labor to work the capital for a profit, capitalism will by definition give way to something else Demonstrate why this is true. What _exactly_ about the definition "private ownership of capital" necessitates that capitalism must give way if capital cannot be worked for profit by cheap labor?