4 ms·

Sort of funny, because I remember in school we were taught "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle" but maybe that simply doesn't work as a concept for most modern materials.

by dottjt 3y ago

chongli 3y ago
I was taught the same slogan in school as well. The 3 R’s we called it! I think where we went wrong is we started ignoring the first two and went all in on the third. I remember at one point we saw a demo of an alternative 2 litre pop (soda) bottle that used slightly thicker plastic which made it durable enough to be collected, washed, and refilled. It never came to market here, unfortunately. I guess no one was willing to put in the infrastructure.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  The first two are bad for business unfortunately. They're a tough sell in practice even though they are more important.
- Y_Y 3y ago
  Go to somewhere like Germany. You pay a "Pfand" when you buy the plastic bottle and it's noticeably sturdier than in countries without this system. There are machines everywhere (especially in supermarkets) that you can put the bottles into. The machine collects them for cleaning and refilling and you get your Pfand back. The infrastructure isn't crazy and it's working nicely in plenty of countries.
  - chongli 3y ago
    That's a great system. We call it a "deposit" and but we only use it for beer here. For a long time, beer was only sold at specific beer stores so it was natural for people to return their empty bottles and cans to the store for the deposit.
  - pvorb 3y ago
    But there's also the so-called "Einweg-Pfand" for single-use bottles. The reverse venting machines will also take those back but immediately cut them down into small pieces. Supermarket chains lure you into believing that all of the plastic from those bottles will be reused to create new ones.
- jabbany 3y ago
  > I guess no one was willing to put in the infrastructure. This is kind of surprising. I remember when I was a kid (not that many decades ago), things like milk, soda, yogurt etc. would come in glass or ceramic bottles under a subscription service. [For context this wasn't in the US] Every time the delivery day came, you would set out (sometimes a crate of) empty bottles that were then exchanged for the same amount of filled bottles. They'd then wash and sterilize the old bottles centrally and refill and recap for a future delivery. Thing is, I don't recall buying drinks this way being more expensive per-bottle than what it costs today. Perhaps slightly more inconvenient since you had to remember to set out the old bottles, but it's not like people don't do that anyways today with their recycling...
  - pvorb 3y ago
    I live in Germany and I just buy milk, soda, water and yogurt in glass bottles from my local supermarket. All are from companies less than 50 kilometers away and will be washed and reused several times. So there are places in the world, where this is still possible, although there no longer is a delivery service. But it's more expensive than plastic bottles and even more expensive than single-use plastic, so the majority uses plastic alternatives. Most milk here comes in some kind of cardboard containers that are mixed with a lot of plastic.
    - sam_lowry_ 3y ago
      >some kind of cardboard containers >that are mixed with a lot of plastic. Tetrapak?
      - jabbany 3y ago
        I've heard that tetrapak are like the worst type of material to recycle. IIRC they're a combo of paper, aluminum foil, and a plastic inner coating. Individually, the paper and aluminum are relatively easily recyclable, but I recall seeing somewhere that because it's all bound into a single material, the labor/energy cost to separate the layers of tetrapak for recycling end up not worth it and it just ends up in landfills...
andrewstuart 3y ago
Plastic roads aren't recycling, and it's not green - it's toxic waste disposal. The reason they are getting traction is because at first glance it sounds like a great idea. Only when you think about the detail that you start to realise that unintended consequences. The question to really focus on is "why are environmentalists so obsessed with keeping plastic out of landfill?". Environmentalists will go to almost any length to keep plastic out of landfill. But WHY? The safest place for plastic waste is in landfill, not out in the environment distributed everywhere as microplastics. In Australia there's a ridiculous utter obsession with "recycling plastic", as though it is some sort of solution to the plastic problem. Recycling plastic is not a solution because the flow of plastic is so utterly gargantuan that no amount of recycling can get on top of it. And that is when governments that are under pressure to do something about it turn to plastic roads. "What are we going to do with this firehose of waste plastic? Well we CANNOT put it in landfill because landfill is the worst thing in the world, so we must put it in roads."
Pxtl 3y ago
The trick was that "recycle" was always a lie when it came to plastic. Paper can be recycled, but it's not super efficient. Metal can be recycled profitably. Glass can be recycled or even just reused. But plastic? It's stupid-expensive to recycle and degrades too much to be endlessly reusable. Imho all single-use plastic (and similar non-recyclable non-biodegradable products like non-recyclable coated paper products) should be taxed by mass. Get rid of the stupid "plastic straw ban" and "plastic bag ban" piecemeal garbage that punishes consumers while ignoring commercial users and hit everybody equally.
- unyttigfjelltol 3y ago
  It's impossible to buy food and beverages packaged in anything but single-use plastics. You'd think someone would have built a commercial alternative.

Sort of funny, because I remember in school we were taught "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle" but maybe that simply doesn't work as a concept for most modern materials.

by dottjt 3y ago

Sort of funny, because I remember in school we were taught "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle" but maybe that simply doesn't work as a concept for most modern materials.

chongli 3y ago

I was taught the same slogan in school as well. The 3 R’s we called it! I think where we went wrong is we started ignoring the first two and went all in on the third. I remember at one point we saw a demo of an alternative 2 litre pop (soda) bottle that used slightly thicker plastic which made it durable enough to be collected, washed, and refilled. It never came to market here, unfortunately. I guess no one was willing to put in the infrastructure.

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
The first two are bad for business unfortunately. They're a tough sell in practice even though they are more important.
Y_Y 3y ago
Go to somewhere like Germany. You pay a "Pfand" when you buy the plastic bottle and it's noticeably sturdier than in countries without this system. There are machines everywhere (especially in supermarkets) that you can put the bottles into. The machine collects them for cleaning and refilling and you get your Pfand back. The infrastructure isn't crazy and it's working nicely in plenty of countries.
- chongli 3y ago
  That's a great system. We call it a "deposit" and but we only use it for beer here. For a long time, beer was only sold at specific beer stores so it was natural for people to return their empty bottles and cans to the store for the deposit.
- pvorb 3y ago
  But there's also the so-called "Einweg-Pfand" for single-use bottles. The reverse venting machines will also take those back but immediately cut them down into small pieces. Supermarket chains lure you into believing that all of the plastic from those bottles will be reused to create new ones.
jabbany 3y ago
> I guess no one was willing to put in the infrastructure. This is kind of surprising. I remember when I was a kid (not that many decades ago), things like milk, soda, yogurt etc. would come in glass or ceramic bottles under a subscription service. [For context this wasn't in the US] Every time the delivery day came, you would set out (sometimes a crate of) empty bottles that were then exchanged for the same amount of filled bottles. They'd then wash and sterilize the old bottles centrally and refill and recap for a future delivery. Thing is, I don't recall buying drinks this way being more expensive per-bottle than what it costs today. Perhaps slightly more inconvenient since you had to remember to set out the old bottles, but it's not like people don't do that anyways today with their recycling...
- pvorb 3y ago
  I live in Germany and I just buy milk, soda, water and yogurt in glass bottles from my local supermarket. All are from companies less than 50 kilometers away and will be washed and reused several times. So there are places in the world, where this is still possible, although there no longer is a delivery service. But it's more expensive than plastic bottles and even more expensive than single-use plastic, so the majority uses plastic alternatives. Most milk here comes in some kind of cardboard containers that are mixed with a lot of plastic.
  - sam_lowry_ 3y ago
    >some kind of cardboard containers >that are mixed with a lot of plastic. Tetrapak?
    - jabbany 3y ago
      I've heard that tetrapak are like the worst type of material to recycle. IIRC they're a combo of paper, aluminum foil, and a plastic inner coating. Individually, the paper and aluminum are relatively easily recyclable, but I recall seeing somewhere that because it's all bound into a single material, the labor/energy cost to separate the layers of tetrapak for recycling end up not worth it and it just ends up in landfills...

andrewstuart 3y ago

Plastic roads aren't recycling, and it's not green - it's toxic waste disposal. The reason they are getting traction is because at first glance it sounds like a great idea. Only when you think about the detail that you start to realise that unintended consequences. The question to really focus on is "why are environmentalists so obsessed with keeping plastic out of landfill?". Environmentalists will go to almost any length to keep plastic out of landfill. But WHY? The safest place for plastic waste is in landfill, not out in the environment distributed everywhere as microplastics. In Australia there's a ridiculous utter obsession with "recycling plastic", as though it is some sort of solution to the plastic problem. Recycling plastic is not a solution because the flow of plastic is so utterly gargantuan that no amount of recycling can get on top of it. And that is when governments that are under pressure to do something about it turn to plastic roads. "What are we going to do with this firehose of waste plastic? Well we CANNOT put it in landfill because landfill is the worst thing in the world, so we must put it in roads."

Pxtl 3y ago

The trick was that "recycle" was always a lie when it came to plastic. Paper can be recycled, but it's not super efficient. Metal can be recycled profitably. Glass can be recycled or even just reused. But plastic? It's stupid-expensive to recycle and degrades too much to be endlessly reusable. Imho all single-use plastic (and similar non-recyclable non-biodegradable products like non-recyclable coated paper products) should be taxed by mass. Get rid of the stupid "plastic straw ban" and "plastic bag ban" piecemeal garbage that punishes consumers while ignoring commercial users and hit everybody equally.

unyttigfjelltol 3y ago
It's impossible to buy food and beverages packaged in anything but single-use plastics. You'd think someone would have built a commercial alternative.