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> It isn't that anymore, though. Searches are geospecific and social network-dependent. All of which is fine and useful, but that's not what made us love Googl

> It isn't that anymore, though. Searches are geospecific and social network-dependent. All of which is fine and useful, but that's not what made us love Google's search engine. What makes you love Google is Google giving you the right answer. If you live in the US, do a google search for dmv. Did it pull the one from your state? Do you really want an averaged across all searchers answer? California is probably the state the generates the most Google searches for dmv, but the California DMV is likely relevant iff you are in California. This idea of one best search page for one query, independent of any other factors based on the user or users geography is really overly romantic and simplicistic. On the other hand, the filter bubble stuff is a nice narrative, but it mostly makes for an interesting story rather than real problem. Having worked on search personalization at Google about 5 years ago, it's just hard to make that big impact on search results with personalization. "dmv" is a nice example where it's works brilliantly, but those ambiguous queries are pretty rare, and hence the more bread and butter stuff is still really driving most of the quality.

drhayes9 15y ago
A little off-topic, but... Why is this getting down-voted? Is it because you disagree with what this person is saying? I thought down-votes were only for things that didn't contribute to the conversation. It feels like this is getting down-voted because people don't like that Google is doing these things. So, this person is getting down-voted 'cuz of Google? Huh?
- joering2 15y ago
  > I thought down-votes were only for things that didn't contribute to the conversation. yeah, well.. you need to see my posts on Apple threads.
- lkrubner 15y ago
  Sadly, Paul Graham has endorsed the idea of using the downvote to express disagreement. I personally dislike this use of the downvote, but it does have official sanction. Read this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171
  - antoko 15y ago
    Just because something CAN be done doesn't mean it SHOULD be done. I think the community benefits from people expressing counter-arguments far more than grey-ing out minority opinion. I'd hope a majority of users here feel the same way and act accordingly - pg's comments not withstanding.
  - jilebedev 15y ago
    > I think it's ok to use the up and down arrows to express agreement. There's a dangerous consequence to saying this. Here's how: 1. Voting is easy. 2. Voting is valueable: it literally changes HN for everyone else. 3. Agreement/disagreement is easy: we're taught how to do it as children. 4. Agreement/disagreement is value-less. Saying that you agree with pg on 'Hackers and Painters' is valueless. Saying "prior to reading H&P, I was in mindset A-B-C supported by points of view D-E-F, and here's how they were modified, and here's the new mindset H-I-J" conveys the same agreement, but it provides value. We shouldn't incite people to use up/down votes to express something value-less. Agreement and lack thereof (alone) is valueless.
- Dylan16807 15y ago
  Some people might have downvoted based on the DMV example apparently being wrong. Factual inaccuracy can be a good reason to downvote.
dakotasmith 15y ago
Logged in, and in Texas, my search for 'dmv' returns the California DMV. Then New York. Then Virginia. The only results for Texas DMV are two ads at the top of the result listing for sketchy drivers-license.org type "businesses".
- antoko 15y ago
  hmm that might be because we don't use the DMV here in Texas the same way - TxDOT and TxDPS are the two agencies you're going to interface with to handle the stuff that California's DMV does. I've been in TX 5 years now (and owned a car that whole time) and never even knew we had a department of motor vehicles.
drats 15y ago
That's ok until Google infects a current search with a previous search as it seemed to do for me the other day. In some cases that might help, and although they were in the same domain I was actually looking for something else. Maybe it was an accident, but the result (at position 3 or 4) looked very much like it'd been boosted from my search a minute earlier. Anyone else experience this?
JoshTriplett 15y ago
> If you live in the US, do a google search for dmv. First of all, no, it doesn't give me the DMV for my state first. And second, why would I do that when I can easily search for "$statename dmv" and have that search universally do the right thing regardless of location? I don't want hidden inputs to my search based on my location; I want everything that determines the results encapsulated in the query.
- loganfrederick 15y ago
  I think this debate hits at an important point; different people want different things. Some people would find it easier to type "dmv" and have the engine know they want "dmv open right now and closest to my location". Some people, like you, want the search engine to handle your input without external influences. In the end, it might be optimal for the world to have multiple, specialized search engines/apps to please as many wants as possible.
  - zmj 15y ago
    The reality of it is slightly more meta than that. Some people just want the right answer. Some people want a tool that they can build a consistent mental model of. Hackers prefer the latter. Everyone else? That's up in the air.
    - nsns 15y ago
      As I've said before, there are searches for consumption needs, and a completely different kind of search made for research needs. No popular search engine today differentiates between the two, but Goggle is slowly moving towards a search dedicated to consumption needs, which seems logical for an advertizing company. I might search for pizza in order to find a place to order it from. Or I might become curious, and search for pizza to learn about its origins and history. A personalized search would only answer the first option.
      - yew 15y ago
        Personalized searches also render it difficult to gauge how 'pizza' relates to other data in the public (sub)conscious. Google results used to (and still do, to a certain extent) provide a very good picture of the semantic structure of the Internet, if you knew how to read them.
bthomas 15y ago
I'd prefer the local DMV be a special result, clearly separate from the universal search. See how "current time" gives you a special result on top - I think they could give similar treatment to a link. More generally, I think users appreciate when recommendations are transparent. Amazon and netflix are great about this - users get to implicitly choose when they want "recommended for you" or just basic results. I'd like Google search more if it had the same model.
tlogan 15y ago
I was expecting that DMV is shown as special result on top - something like "are you searching for DMV office next to your location?" ... But you explained the core of the problem. There are two kinds of searches: 1) discovery of information 2) finding information I probably know but I'm just too lazy to go that site directly (or something in that sense) The first kind of search is what made Google the most popular search engine. The second kind of search is something new for Google and it seems it is implemented as a unsophisticated simplification of the complex problem. It is like AOL search all over again.
spc476 15y ago
I did a Google search for "dmv". The first result, an ad, is for Florida, where I live. The next three non-ad based results are for California, Virginia and New York. The fourth (and on) non-ad results are for Florida. A Google search for "florida dmv" returned Florida-based results. What I am tired of seeing are Eames chair ads all over the place. Do one search for Eames chairs, and click on one paid result, and now all I see are Eames chair ads. Sigh. At least it's a break from the casino school ads I was getting.
- loverobots 15y ago
  The first result, an ad, is for Florida, where I live. The next three non-ad based results are for California, Virginia and New York. The fourth (and on) non-ad results are for Florida. So you click on the relevant link ("happened" to be an ad,) as the Stanford MBAs high five each other at Googleplex. I remember reading a very interesting comment about the incentives of providing the best results and ad revenue. It's clear to me that ad revenue has been winning at Google.
  - thisisnotatest 15y ago
    No. I work on Search Quality at Google. We have a firewall between Search Quality and Ads. We don't answer to Ads. Revenue is just not my team's problem. We come into work every day and look at our search results and try to get the most relevant answers ranked as #1, #2, etc. I never think about the impact of my ranking improvements on ads. I've been personally involved in dozens of changes, and I've never once heard anyone argue for or against releasing a change because of ads. I can understand why someone might be mistrustful because of the apparent incentive to sandbag the algorithmic results. But Google has the long-term view: if we can keep satisfying our users' needs, the revenue will follow.
    - loverobots 15y ago
      You can only speak about yourself, you do not know what goes behind the scenes. Firewall, like the investment banks have? Don't take personally, enjoy your paycheck and stock grants, you work for a corporation that answers to Wall Street. Listen to the earnings call once and analyze what the ad people say about "innovation." But Google has the long-term view: if we can keep satisfying our users' needs, the revenue will follow. Personally I no longer buy that. The revenue is now #1 and now Google is spending like crazy to keep the users. It started last year full speed
hrktb 15y ago
Two points. > it's just hard to make that big impact on search results with personalization Trying to make a big impact on something that was more or less working might be the problem. A "don't fix what's not (too) broken" could be a good idea. For your dmv example, actually, I din't know what dmv is, and my fisrt page (french localized) is about a medicament dictionnary for doctors (DMV, didn't know it either). "dmv usa" doesn't get me the dmvusa.org result firt either (it's the one I get on the US google) This seems to be the best example of why geospecific data can be widly irrelevant, and using the default setting, I get this kind of unusable results for half of what I search.
brudgers 15y ago
>Do you really want an averaged across all searchers answer? California is probably the state the generates the most Google searches for dmv, but the California DMV is likely relevant iff you are in California." My state has a Motor Vehicle Division. "DMV" gives me California's. This page which does not appear on Google's first page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMV http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMV - though perhaps it should.
tripzilch 15y ago
> What makes you love Google is Google giving you the right answer. No it's not. What I loved about Google is giving me the ability to search the web. If my answer wasn't on the first page (or even the second), I'd refine my query until I would get it. Which was easy because Google was very deterministic, just your basic "AND" keyword search engine. Try a few synonyms maybe, different angle, synecdochical approach[1] and if all that didn't get you your answer, it probably wasn't there[2]. Today, you type in your query, Google tries to guess what you need, and shows you your results. If your answer is not there, you can try different queries, synonyms, whatever, but you'll get mostly the same results again. The web being unimaginably bigger than 10 years ago when I used the approach described above, I refuse to believe my answer's not there. Google is just being dumb. Anyone know of a proper Search Engine? (I love Duck Duck Go but its index is rather small) [1]http://www.searchlores.org/synecdoc.htm http://www.searchlores.org/synecdoc.htm [2]actually, you were probably not trying hard enough. Pressing on over the course of a week and getting some expert friends to help you would always show that your answer was in fact there. in some form or another.
- rieter 15y ago
  Try the literal search feature on Google.
  - tripzilch 15y ago
    You mean this one? http://googlesystem.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/google-verbatim.html http://googlesystem.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/google-verbatim.h... Yeah I'll investigate that tomorrow.
- raldi 15y ago
  Do you have an example of a search that doesn't currently find good results, but you suspect it would work if Google worked the way it used to?
  - tripzilch 15y ago
    That's a rather difficult question to answer. I usually don't remember what I've searched for recently. I'm just relating my general impression, which has gotten much much worse over the past year. Really it's hard to say because 9 times out of 10 it works fine. Probably even more. Because most of my queries are simple ones. I'd have to go dig through my browsing history, it'd take a lot of effort. I did it once, when Matt Cutts asked a similar question, but right now it's rather late here so I hope you can excuse me :) One thing I can say, I have tried to diversify my usage of Search Engines in the past, to not just use Google but also Yahoo, Bing, and others. Even changed my default search engine sometimes. But it never stuck. Google just was too good--its speed was a big factor btw, even when the results weren't great, the fact that you could quickly try different queries made up for it. But since a couple of months I find myself more and more going for DDG at the first query--also because if DDG doesn't have my answer it has a convenient link to Google to retry, if Google would have the same I might even still use Google with DDG as a fallback instead :) Another tweak I did was disable Javascript on the Google result pages. There are a lot of shortcut keys I use in Opera all the time and Google's persistent autofocus was really getting in the way. Especially with the instant-refresh feature, your whole results would change just because you pressed some shortcut key even though the input box wasn't even focused!

drhayes9 15y ago

A little off-topic, but... Why is this getting down-voted? Is it because you disagree with what this person is saying? I thought down-votes were only for things that didn't contribute to the conversation. It feels like this is getting down-voted because people don't like that Google is doing these things. So, this person is getting down-voted 'cuz of Google? Huh?

joering2 15y ago
> I thought down-votes were only for things that didn't contribute to the conversation. yeah, well.. you need to see my posts on Apple threads.
lkrubner 15y ago
Sadly, Paul Graham has endorsed the idea of using the downvote to express disagreement. I personally dislike this use of the downvote, but it does have official sanction. Read this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171
- antoko 15y ago
  Just because something CAN be done doesn't mean it SHOULD be done. I think the community benefits from people expressing counter-arguments far more than grey-ing out minority opinion. I'd hope a majority of users here feel the same way and act accordingly - pg's comments not withstanding.
- jilebedev 15y ago
  > I think it's ok to use the up and down arrows to express agreement. There's a dangerous consequence to saying this. Here's how: 1. Voting is easy. 2. Voting is valueable: it literally changes HN for everyone else. 3. Agreement/disagreement is easy: we're taught how to do it as children. 4. Agreement/disagreement is value-less. Saying that you agree with pg on 'Hackers and Painters' is valueless. Saying "prior to reading H&P, I was in mindset A-B-C supported by points of view D-E-F, and here's how they were modified, and here's the new mindset H-I-J" conveys the same agreement, but it provides value. We shouldn't incite people to use up/down votes to express something value-less. Agreement and lack thereof (alone) is valueless.
Dylan16807 15y ago
Some people might have downvoted based on the DMV example apparently being wrong. Factual inaccuracy can be a good reason to downvote.

dakotasmith 15y ago

Logged in, and in Texas, my search for 'dmv' returns the California DMV. Then New York. Then Virginia. The only results for Texas DMV are two ads at the top of the result listing for sketchy drivers-license.org type "businesses".

antoko 15y ago
hmm that might be because we don't use the DMV here in Texas the same way - TxDOT and TxDPS are the two agencies you're going to interface with to handle the stuff that California's DMV does. I've been in TX 5 years now (and owned a car that whole time) and never even knew we had a department of motor vehicles.

drats 15y ago

That's ok until Google infects a current search with a previous search as it seemed to do for me the other day. In some cases that might help, and although they were in the same domain I was actually looking for something else. Maybe it was an accident, but the result (at position 3 or 4) looked very much like it'd been boosted from my search a minute earlier. Anyone else experience this?

JoshTriplett 15y ago

> If you live in the US, do a google search for dmv. First of all, no, it doesn't give me the DMV for my state first. And second, why would I do that when I can easily search for "$statename dmv" and have that search universally do the right thing regardless of location? I don't want hidden inputs to my search based on my location; I want everything that determines the results encapsulated in the query.

loganfrederick 15y ago
I think this debate hits at an important point; different people want different things. Some people would find it easier to type "dmv" and have the engine know they want "dmv open right now and closest to my location". Some people, like you, want the search engine to handle your input without external influences. In the end, it might be optimal for the world to have multiple, specialized search engines/apps to please as many wants as possible.
- zmj 15y ago
  The reality of it is slightly more meta than that. Some people just want the right answer. Some people want a tool that they can build a consistent mental model of. Hackers prefer the latter. Everyone else? That's up in the air.
  - nsns 15y ago
    As I've said before, there are searches for consumption needs, and a completely different kind of search made for research needs. No popular search engine today differentiates between the two, but Goggle is slowly moving towards a search dedicated to consumption needs, which seems logical for an advertizing company. I might search for pizza in order to find a place to order it from. Or I might become curious, and search for pizza to learn about its origins and history. A personalized search would only answer the first option.
    - yew 15y ago
      Personalized searches also render it difficult to gauge how 'pizza' relates to other data in the public (sub)conscious. Google results used to (and still do, to a certain extent) provide a very good picture of the semantic structure of the Internet, if you knew how to read them.

bthomas 15y ago

I'd prefer the local DMV be a special result, clearly separate from the universal search. See how "current time" gives you a special result on top - I think they could give similar treatment to a link. More generally, I think users appreciate when recommendations are transparent. Amazon and netflix are great about this - users get to implicitly choose when they want "recommended for you" or just basic results. I'd like Google search more if it had the same model.

tlogan 15y ago

I was expecting that DMV is shown as special result on top - something like "are you searching for DMV office next to your location?" ... But you explained the core of the problem. There are two kinds of searches: 1) discovery of information 2) finding information I probably know but I'm just too lazy to go that site directly (or something in that sense) The first kind of search is what made Google the most popular search engine. The second kind of search is something new for Google and it seems it is implemented as a unsophisticated simplification of the complex problem. It is like AOL search all over again.

spc476 15y ago

I did a Google search for "dmv". The first result, an ad, is for Florida, where I live. The next three non-ad based results are for California, Virginia and New York. The fourth (and on) non-ad results are for Florida. A Google search for "florida dmv" returned Florida-based results. What I am tired of seeing are Eames chair ads all over the place. Do one search for Eames chairs, and click on one paid result, and now all I see are Eames chair ads. Sigh. At least it's a break from the casino school ads I was getting.

loverobots 15y ago
The first result, an ad, is for Florida, where I live. The next three non-ad based results are for California, Virginia and New York. The fourth (and on) non-ad results are for Florida. So you click on the relevant link ("happened" to be an ad,) as the Stanford MBAs high five each other at Googleplex. I remember reading a very interesting comment about the incentives of providing the best results and ad revenue. It's clear to me that ad revenue has been winning at Google.
- thisisnotatest 15y ago
  No. I work on Search Quality at Google. We have a firewall between Search Quality and Ads. We don't answer to Ads. Revenue is just not my team's problem. We come into work every day and look at our search results and try to get the most relevant answers ranked as #1, #2, etc. I never think about the impact of my ranking improvements on ads. I've been personally involved in dozens of changes, and I've never once heard anyone argue for or against releasing a change because of ads. I can understand why someone might be mistrustful because of the apparent incentive to sandbag the algorithmic results. But Google has the long-term view: if we can keep satisfying our users' needs, the revenue will follow.
  - loverobots 15y ago
    You can only speak about yourself, you do not know what goes behind the scenes. Firewall, like the investment banks have? Don't take personally, enjoy your paycheck and stock grants, you work for a corporation that answers to Wall Street. Listen to the earnings call once and analyze what the ad people say about "innovation." But Google has the long-term view: if we can keep satisfying our users' needs, the revenue will follow. Personally I no longer buy that. The revenue is now #1 and now Google is spending like crazy to keep the users. It started last year full speed

hrktb 15y ago

Two points. > it's just hard to make that big impact on search results with personalization Trying to make a big impact on something that was more or less working might be the problem. A "don't fix what's not (too) broken" could be a good idea. For your dmv example, actually, I din't know what dmv is, and my fisrt page (french localized) is about a medicament dictionnary for doctors (DMV, didn't know it either). "dmv usa" doesn't get me the dmvusa.org result firt either (it's the one I get on the US google) This seems to be the best example of why geospecific data can be widly irrelevant, and using the default setting, I get this kind of unusable results for half of what I search.

brudgers 15y ago

>Do you really want an averaged across all searchers answer? California is probably the state the generates the most Google searches for dmv, but the California DMV is likely relevant iff you are in California." My state has a Motor Vehicle Division. "DMV" gives me California's. This page which does not appear on Google's first page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMV http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMV - though perhaps it should.

tripzilch 15y ago

> What makes you love Google is Google giving you the right answer. No it's not. What I loved about Google is giving me the ability to search the web. If my answer wasn't on the first page (or even the second), I'd refine my query until I would get it. Which was easy because Google was very deterministic, just your basic "AND" keyword search engine. Try a few synonyms maybe, different angle, synecdochical approach[1] and if all that didn't get you your answer, it probably wasn't there[2]. Today, you type in your query, Google tries to guess what you need, and shows you your results. If your answer is not there, you can try different queries, synonyms, whatever, but you'll get mostly the same results again. The web being unimaginably bigger than 10 years ago when I used the approach described above, I refuse to believe my answer's not there. Google is just being dumb. Anyone know of a proper Search Engine? (I love Duck Duck Go but its index is rather small) [1]http://www.searchlores.org/synecdoc.htm http://www.searchlores.org/synecdoc.htm [2]actually, you were probably not trying hard enough. Pressing on over the course of a week and getting some expert friends to help you would always show that your answer was in fact there. in some form or another.

rieter 15y ago
Try the literal search feature on Google.
- tripzilch 15y ago
  You mean this one? http://googlesystem.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/google-verbatim.html http://googlesystem.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/google-verbatim.h... Yeah I'll investigate that tomorrow.
raldi 15y ago
Do you have an example of a search that doesn't currently find good results, but you suspect it would work if Google worked the way it used to?
- tripzilch 15y ago
  That's a rather difficult question to answer. I usually don't remember what I've searched for recently. I'm just relating my general impression, which has gotten much much worse over the past year. Really it's hard to say because 9 times out of 10 it works fine. Probably even more. Because most of my queries are simple ones. I'd have to go dig through my browsing history, it'd take a lot of effort. I did it once, when Matt Cutts asked a similar question, but right now it's rather late here so I hope you can excuse me :) One thing I can say, I have tried to diversify my usage of Search Engines in the past, to not just use Google but also Yahoo, Bing, and others. Even changed my default search engine sometimes. But it never stuck. Google just was too good--its speed was a big factor btw, even when the results weren't great, the fact that you could quickly try different queries made up for it. But since a couple of months I find myself more and more going for DDG at the first query--also because if DDG doesn't have my answer it has a convenient link to Google to retry, if Google would have the same I might even still use Google with DDG as a fallback instead :) Another tweak I did was disable Javascript on the Google result pages. There are a lot of shortcut keys I use in Opera all the time and Google's persistent autofocus was really getting in the way. Especially with the instant-refresh feature, your whole results would change just because you pressed some shortcut key even though the input box wasn't even focused!