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As an European, where we drive mostly stick, it's funny to observe the newfound US love for stick shifts. It's funny because it happened almost exactly when aut

As an European, where we drive mostly stick, it's funny to observe the newfound US love for stick shifts. It's funny because it happened almost exactly when automatics became good! Good dual clutch gearboxes are amazing, but even "classic" ones like BMW's ZF6 or ZF8 are really close. ZF8 is so good BMW uses it in the M3, instead of a dual clutch. With these options, I'd never go back to stick shift. This after having half a million km driven on manual transmissions.

o0banky0o 3y ago
lol, we've always bitched about automatics in the US too
ghaff 3y ago
I assume a lot of it is a retro thing like film and vinyl. I donated my 20 year old Honda Del Sol two-seater stick shortly before the pandemic. It had a lot of miles on it and, with no commute, I just wasn't getting the use out of it to make it worth keeping. It was fun but there's no way I'd buy a stick today even if I were to have a "fun" car.
cpursley 3y ago
Manuals suck in traffic. Americans sit in a lot of traffic. And I say this as somebody who loves manuals (I’m an amateur race car driver).
- ImprovedSilence 3y ago
  this was always a key point from people who drove automatics but claimed to like manuals. i daily drove a manual in some of the worst traffic the US has to offer. but so what, guess what else sucks in traffic? Automatics!! when you're stuck in traffic, everything sucks, so you might as well drive something thats enjoyable the rest of the time.
  - mda 3y ago
    Automatics suck less. Why am I constantly trying to change gears of the transmission system?
  - cduzz 3y ago
    I've never really seen the issue with "manual in traffic" -- there's almost always a gear or two that allow you to go a the speed of traffic without tons of shifting. Stop and go? 2nd probably goes from "creep" to "moderate speed" Anyhow, electric cars are better all around -- at least those with "one pedal driving" where the speed pedal goes all the way to zero or nearly zero. My dislike of automatics is the indeterminate lag between request for a particular speed and when the car decides to shift to the appropriate gear to get to that speed as quickly as I've indicated I want to get there. Plus with ICE cars there's all sorts of other tedious inertia to contend with around engine RPM and turbo spool state and such. At least a manual provides better determinism around throttle behavior.
    - connicpu 3y ago
      "Semi-automatic" cars (aka an automatic transmission with a manual gear override available) are a nice compromise for those of us who want the simple convenience most of the time, with the ability to take control when we want to. Plus once the order comes in, those servo motors can shift the gear way faster than I can depress a clutch.
      - Arrath 3y ago
        Yeah I quite like those.
    - foxyv 3y ago
      Ahh sweet summer child. Traffic that has a speed isn't really traffic in my book. It isn't really traffic until you spend more time stopped than moving. Joking aside, the worst traffic is when you stop every 4 seconds and then creep forward ten feet before stopping again. If I wasn't planning to go car-less I think I would buy an electric car for that nonsense.
      - cduzz 3y ago
        Oh, I live in metro boston and before that lived in the slurm of southern california, and have not at any time owned a car with an automatic transmission... The workload from gear shifting is more than zero, but not (for me) oppressively so. Even "stop and go" traffic eventually has some average speed and sometimes it is low enough that you've got to clutch in to come to a full stop and clutch out to go faster; modern engine management's pretty good at keeping the motor from stalling. Probably I annoy people by letting the lead in front of me get to be a couple car lengths before I decide to go, but that's on them... we'll all get there eventually. Electric cars are the best in that you're basically always in first gear, the redline is basically infinite, and the car doesn't stall when the engine's not moving, so you don't need a clutch.
- scott_w 3y ago
  That’s odd because I like the control a clutch pedal gives me in heavy traffic. And I drive a 15 year old diesel!
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    When I still drove I hated the way I had to keep my foot on the clutch in traffic jams. Or constantly switch to neutral. The clutch on my car was heavy. That's why I got an automatic. But now I live in a city where I can take the metro to work and I don't own a car anymore. I hope I'll never need to drive again, I hate driving so much.
  - dieselgate 3y ago
    15 years is almost kinda young for many diesel engines
    - scott_w 3y ago
      If I showed you a photo of my car, “new” is not a word you’d use to describe it.
  - BluePen7 3y ago
    I'm only 30, but at this point a 15 year old car still feels kinda "new" to me. Up until a few months ago, I drove a 2008 Lexus, felt perfectly modern. But in regards to driving a manual in traffic, does a diesel not make it easier? An engine suited to lower RPMs, but with more torque, seems perfectly suited to clutching in/out to shuffle along.
    - scott_w 3y ago
      The clutch is heavier in a diesel.
- foxyv 3y ago
  This is the exact reason I bought an automatic. I had a 1994 BMW 318is that I loved, but I spent probably a couple thousand hours on the 91 freeway in southern California pushing the clutch in and out. The BMW "sporty" clutch was a leg workout and a half. The return spring was super stiff. Sometimes I would play a game to see if I could stay in first and just let my lead distance increase enough to not have to stop at all, but it pissed people off so bad.
  - mlrtime 3y ago
    This is actually how you're supposed to drive in traffic. Give more space to the car in front of you and try to stay at a constant speed. You will see truckers do this a lot. It also is much better for your car and mental health. You don't need to accelerate to a complete stop over and over. I do this every time I'm in very bad traffic (Think inching along and coming to a complete stop multiple times). However about 10% of the time I get some idiot behind me that thinks that I'm going to slow so they speed around me just to come to a complete stop 2 seconds later.
    - foxyv 3y ago
      I tried it once or twice. It was great for the first minute or so, until the lady in the car behind me started honking, screaming, revving her engine, and pretending like she was going to ram my bumper. People HATE when I try to reach average traffic speeds instead of just cramming my car as close to the one in front of me as I dare.
    - grvdrm 3y ago
      I love crawling in traffic in 1st. Totally agree.
- ravenstine 3y ago
  Yeah, I certainly wouldn't knock those who love driving manual. Part of why I like riding my motorcycle is that it's a manual. But in LA traffic, I'd rather drive an automatic so I can put my brain into "autopilot" while playing an audiobook rather than have to constantly be shifting by hand. It irks me how so many manual-lovers have this superiority complex over people who just want a car that will get them from A to B. Have fun with your manuals, but don't speak as if I'm an imbecile because I don't think driving manual is fun in heavy traffic.
  - VTimofeenko 3y ago
    I had been riding in SoCal for a few years and I'd say doing the autopilot thing when split laning is not very safe. Too many folks trying to suddenly merge into HOV lane solid lines be damned
  - neuralRiot 3y ago
    I’ve driven manual my whole car life and in heavy US traffic. When you get accustomed, your brain goes into “auto-pilot” and does the shifting too anyway.
    - grvdrm 3y ago
      Yep, likewise. It’s not the burden that people like to describe.
rootusrootus 3y ago
> As an European, where we drive mostly stick Enjoy it while it lasts. As of a couple years ago, more than half of all new cars sold in Europe are automatics. That doesn't seem too surprising, I imagine the same logic that made manuals appealing in the past is why automatics are appealing today.
- sergiosgc 3y ago
  I'm on the side fostering that change. Ever since I got a Mini Countryman with a ZF6. I was forced into an automatic because the car was a hybrid, and now I wouldn't go back to manual. The car was a little janky from a dead stop, when running solely on gas. I probably would miss the precision for maneuvering you get with a clutch. I didn't, actually, because of the electric motor doing these operations perfectly.
  - dingaling 3y ago
    It is possible to combin a hybrid drive line with manual transmission, as Toyota is developing: https://www.topspeed.com/toyota-manual-for-hybrids-game-changer/ https://www.topspeed.com/toyota-manual-for-hybrids-game-chan...
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  Automatics are more fuel efficient, and govenment keeps raising the efficiency requirements. Automatics do this by having a lot of gears and changing up very aggressively. It would suck to drive a 7 or 9 speed manual (maybe truck drivers feel differently; I think 5 is optimal for a car) but automatics can manage it and squeeeze out another tenth of an MPG. I love manual transmissions and will never buy an automatic unless forced to. I'd rather buy a used car with a manual than anything new.
  - stork19 3y ago
    Noooo. Manuals are on average much more efficient. I drive a 1st generation Honda Insight, and the manual version gets ~10 mpg more than the automatic.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ImprovedSilence 3y ago
drivers that enjoy manuals have always been around. We’re just louder now because they almost don't make cars with manuals anymore, so when one does come along we rejoice.
- sergiosgc 3y ago
  Genuine question: What exactly do you enjoy? Twenty years go, you could do a mountain road engine braking with downshifts, getting then the perfect gear for the turn apex and coming out perfectly balanced. But cars have changed. Engine braking is a lot less effective today (different compression ratios, better mechanics). Automatics now have more gears and allow you to manually select the gear, so you can control available torque in the turn. It seems the advantages of manual transmissions no longer exist.
  - cduzz 3y ago
    I dislike indeterminate lag between input and action. With an automatic, there's a threshold where the car decides to downshift when asking for a particular increase in forward velocity; that set point will wander depending on current RPM state and velocity and drive gear ratio. Modern cars are bad enough with turbos and fancy valve timing and throttle by wire stuff where the behavior of the thing is a big stack of jitter, but adding a transmission to the mix makes the response times even more random. At least with a manual transmission, the behavior of the throttle pedal is far more predictable and direct -- down the engine will go faster (modulo the current drive gear) and up the engine will slow down and slow the car down. Often you're in the incorrect gear for a particular desired acceleration but there's a feedback loop that you participate in to recognize / avoid the issue (mash pedal, not much happens because you're in the wrong gear, you get feedback and decide to change gears). With an automatic, you're just yelling down to the engine room asking the hamster to get on a different wheel.
    - sergiosgc 3y ago
      That is true, but only in automatic mode. In semi-automatic, everything is quite predictable, no?
technothrasher 3y ago
> it's funny to observe the newfound US love for stick shifts Nobody in the US loves or drives stick shifts. There's been a steady drop in manual transmissions here from about 12% of the market in 2000 to 2% of the market today. The noise around them is just a very small vocal minority of enthusiasts who pine for the "old days". I'm definitely one of those enthusiasts, but I have to face reality that they're effectively gone. I haven't had a stick for a daily driver since about 2010. I do still have older manual sports cars that I can drive and enjoy when I wish.
supazek 3y ago
A few years ago I got a 53 Chevrolet pickup with a 3 speed (and a nice BW overdrive attachment). Learned how to drive a manual in that truck and will never buy an automatic again as long as I can choose. Actually operating the vehicle is extremely satisfying and fun. I’m swapping out the C-4 in my 65 mustang for a T-5 as soon as I can spare the cash/time. For me it’s definitely not a matter of practicality but a “vinyl” type of thing. My DD has a CVT but at least emulates shifting with paddles
justin66 3y ago
> newfound US love for stick shifts That is something that exists entirely in the minds of auto journalists. The number of manually-shifted cars has been in steady decline for decades. These last several years, it went from something like 3.7 % of new cars to 2.4% to 0.7% to 1.9%. You can see how a deceptive headline could be manufactured around the last two years of data.
neuralRiot 3y ago
DSG are wonderful but an added complexity for the sake of what? Shaving 0.5sec 0-60mph? Saving the hassle of slow traffic driving? Both can be fixed by learning to drive.
vGPU 3y ago
The difference between being forced to use one vs choosing to use one. I’ve driven some real nice autos, but when it comes to a car I enjoy driving, give me a nice sloppy GM T-56 or the crisp shifts of a BMW ZF stick. They’re just more fun. It’s the reason why I don’t have a C8 corvette. But when it comes to day to day puttering around, auto all the way, and give me as many convenience features as you have. Radar cruise control? Yes please. Nothing worse than riding your clutch for an hour straight every day.

o0banky0o 3y ago

lol, we've always bitched about automatics in the US too

ghaff 3y ago

I assume a lot of it is a retro thing like film and vinyl. I donated my 20 year old Honda Del Sol two-seater stick shortly before the pandemic. It had a lot of miles on it and, with no commute, I just wasn't getting the use out of it to make it worth keeping. It was fun but there's no way I'd buy a stick today even if I were to have a "fun" car.

cpursley 3y ago

Manuals suck in traffic. Americans sit in a lot of traffic. And I say this as somebody who loves manuals (I’m an amateur race car driver).

ImprovedSilence 3y ago
this was always a key point from people who drove automatics but claimed to like manuals. i daily drove a manual in some of the worst traffic the US has to offer. but so what, guess what else sucks in traffic? Automatics!! when you're stuck in traffic, everything sucks, so you might as well drive something thats enjoyable the rest of the time.
- mda 3y ago
  Automatics suck less. Why am I constantly trying to change gears of the transmission system?
- cduzz 3y ago
  I've never really seen the issue with "manual in traffic" -- there's almost always a gear or two that allow you to go a the speed of traffic without tons of shifting. Stop and go? 2nd probably goes from "creep" to "moderate speed" Anyhow, electric cars are better all around -- at least those with "one pedal driving" where the speed pedal goes all the way to zero or nearly zero. My dislike of automatics is the indeterminate lag between request for a particular speed and when the car decides to shift to the appropriate gear to get to that speed as quickly as I've indicated I want to get there. Plus with ICE cars there's all sorts of other tedious inertia to contend with around engine RPM and turbo spool state and such. At least a manual provides better determinism around throttle behavior.
  - connicpu 3y ago
    "Semi-automatic" cars (aka an automatic transmission with a manual gear override available) are a nice compromise for those of us who want the simple convenience most of the time, with the ability to take control when we want to. Plus once the order comes in, those servo motors can shift the gear way faster than I can depress a clutch.
    - Arrath 3y ago
      Yeah I quite like those.
  - foxyv 3y ago
    Ahh sweet summer child. Traffic that has a speed isn't really traffic in my book. It isn't really traffic until you spend more time stopped than moving. Joking aside, the worst traffic is when you stop every 4 seconds and then creep forward ten feet before stopping again. If I wasn't planning to go car-less I think I would buy an electric car for that nonsense.
    - cduzz 3y ago
      Oh, I live in metro boston and before that lived in the slurm of southern california, and have not at any time owned a car with an automatic transmission... The workload from gear shifting is more than zero, but not (for me) oppressively so. Even "stop and go" traffic eventually has some average speed and sometimes it is low enough that you've got to clutch in to come to a full stop and clutch out to go faster; modern engine management's pretty good at keeping the motor from stalling. Probably I annoy people by letting the lead in front of me get to be a couple car lengths before I decide to go, but that's on them... we'll all get there eventually. Electric cars are the best in that you're basically always in first gear, the redline is basically infinite, and the car doesn't stall when the engine's not moving, so you don't need a clutch.
scott_w 3y ago
That’s odd because I like the control a clutch pedal gives me in heavy traffic. And I drive a 15 year old diesel!
- wkat4242 3y ago
  When I still drove I hated the way I had to keep my foot on the clutch in traffic jams. Or constantly switch to neutral. The clutch on my car was heavy. That's why I got an automatic. But now I live in a city where I can take the metro to work and I don't own a car anymore. I hope I'll never need to drive again, I hate driving so much.
- dieselgate 3y ago
  15 years is almost kinda young for many diesel engines
  - scott_w 3y ago
    If I showed you a photo of my car, “new” is not a word you’d use to describe it.
- BluePen7 3y ago
  I'm only 30, but at this point a 15 year old car still feels kinda "new" to me. Up until a few months ago, I drove a 2008 Lexus, felt perfectly modern. But in regards to driving a manual in traffic, does a diesel not make it easier? An engine suited to lower RPMs, but with more torque, seems perfectly suited to clutching in/out to shuffle along.
  - scott_w 3y ago
    The clutch is heavier in a diesel.
foxyv 3y ago
This is the exact reason I bought an automatic. I had a 1994 BMW 318is that I loved, but I spent probably a couple thousand hours on the 91 freeway in southern California pushing the clutch in and out. The BMW "sporty" clutch was a leg workout and a half. The return spring was super stiff. Sometimes I would play a game to see if I could stay in first and just let my lead distance increase enough to not have to stop at all, but it pissed people off so bad.
- mlrtime 3y ago
  This is actually how you're supposed to drive in traffic. Give more space to the car in front of you and try to stay at a constant speed. You will see truckers do this a lot. It also is much better for your car and mental health. You don't need to accelerate to a complete stop over and over. I do this every time I'm in very bad traffic (Think inching along and coming to a complete stop multiple times). However about 10% of the time I get some idiot behind me that thinks that I'm going to slow so they speed around me just to come to a complete stop 2 seconds later.
  - foxyv 3y ago
    I tried it once or twice. It was great for the first minute or so, until the lady in the car behind me started honking, screaming, revving her engine, and pretending like she was going to ram my bumper. People HATE when I try to reach average traffic speeds instead of just cramming my car as close to the one in front of me as I dare.
  - grvdrm 3y ago
    I love crawling in traffic in 1st. Totally agree.
ravenstine 3y ago
Yeah, I certainly wouldn't knock those who love driving manual. Part of why I like riding my motorcycle is that it's a manual. But in LA traffic, I'd rather drive an automatic so I can put my brain into "autopilot" while playing an audiobook rather than have to constantly be shifting by hand. It irks me how so many manual-lovers have this superiority complex over people who just want a car that will get them from A to B. Have fun with your manuals, but don't speak as if I'm an imbecile because I don't think driving manual is fun in heavy traffic.
- VTimofeenko 3y ago
  I had been riding in SoCal for a few years and I'd say doing the autopilot thing when split laning is not very safe. Too many folks trying to suddenly merge into HOV lane solid lines be damned
- neuralRiot 3y ago
  I’ve driven manual my whole car life and in heavy US traffic. When you get accustomed, your brain goes into “auto-pilot” and does the shifting too anyway.
  - grvdrm 3y ago
    Yep, likewise. It’s not the burden that people like to describe.

rootusrootus 3y ago

> As an European, where we drive mostly stick Enjoy it while it lasts. As of a couple years ago, more than half of all new cars sold in Europe are automatics. That doesn't seem too surprising, I imagine the same logic that made manuals appealing in the past is why automatics are appealing today.

sergiosgc 3y ago
I'm on the side fostering that change. Ever since I got a Mini Countryman with a ZF6. I was forced into an automatic because the car was a hybrid, and now I wouldn't go back to manual. The car was a little janky from a dead stop, when running solely on gas. I probably would miss the precision for maneuvering you get with a clutch. I didn't, actually, because of the electric motor doing these operations perfectly.
- dingaling 3y ago
  It is possible to combin a hybrid drive line with manual transmission, as Toyota is developing: https://www.topspeed.com/toyota-manual-for-hybrids-game-changer/ https://www.topspeed.com/toyota-manual-for-hybrids-game-chan...
SoftTalker 3y ago
Automatics are more fuel efficient, and govenment keeps raising the efficiency requirements. Automatics do this by having a lot of gears and changing up very aggressively. It would suck to drive a 7 or 9 speed manual (maybe truck drivers feel differently; I think 5 is optimal for a car) but automatics can manage it and squeeeze out another tenth of an MPG. I love manual transmissions and will never buy an automatic unless forced to. I'd rather buy a used car with a manual than anything new.
- stork19 3y ago
  Noooo. Manuals are on average much more efficient. I drive a 1st generation Honda Insight, and the manual version gets ~10 mpg more than the automatic.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ImprovedSilence 3y ago

drivers that enjoy manuals have always been around. We’re just louder now because they almost don't make cars with manuals anymore, so when one does come along we rejoice.

sergiosgc 3y ago
Genuine question: What exactly do you enjoy? Twenty years go, you could do a mountain road engine braking with downshifts, getting then the perfect gear for the turn apex and coming out perfectly balanced. But cars have changed. Engine braking is a lot less effective today (different compression ratios, better mechanics). Automatics now have more gears and allow you to manually select the gear, so you can control available torque in the turn. It seems the advantages of manual transmissions no longer exist.
- cduzz 3y ago
  I dislike indeterminate lag between input and action. With an automatic, there's a threshold where the car decides to downshift when asking for a particular increase in forward velocity; that set point will wander depending on current RPM state and velocity and drive gear ratio. Modern cars are bad enough with turbos and fancy valve timing and throttle by wire stuff where the behavior of the thing is a big stack of jitter, but adding a transmission to the mix makes the response times even more random. At least with a manual transmission, the behavior of the throttle pedal is far more predictable and direct -- down the engine will go faster (modulo the current drive gear) and up the engine will slow down and slow the car down. Often you're in the incorrect gear for a particular desired acceleration but there's a feedback loop that you participate in to recognize / avoid the issue (mash pedal, not much happens because you're in the wrong gear, you get feedback and decide to change gears). With an automatic, you're just yelling down to the engine room asking the hamster to get on a different wheel.
  - sergiosgc 3y ago
    That is true, but only in automatic mode. In semi-automatic, everything is quite predictable, no?

technothrasher 3y ago

> it's funny to observe the newfound US love for stick shifts Nobody in the US loves or drives stick shifts. There's been a steady drop in manual transmissions here from about 12% of the market in 2000 to 2% of the market today. The noise around them is just a very small vocal minority of enthusiasts who pine for the "old days". I'm definitely one of those enthusiasts, but I have to face reality that they're effectively gone. I haven't had a stick for a daily driver since about 2010. I do still have older manual sports cars that I can drive and enjoy when I wish.

supazek 3y ago

A few years ago I got a 53 Chevrolet pickup with a 3 speed (and a nice BW overdrive attachment). Learned how to drive a manual in that truck and will never buy an automatic again as long as I can choose. Actually operating the vehicle is extremely satisfying and fun. I’m swapping out the C-4 in my 65 mustang for a T-5 as soon as I can spare the cash/time. For me it’s definitely not a matter of practicality but a “vinyl” type of thing. My DD has a CVT but at least emulates shifting with paddles

justin66 3y ago

> newfound US love for stick shifts That is something that exists entirely in the minds of auto journalists. The number of manually-shifted cars has been in steady decline for decades. These last several years, it went from something like 3.7 % of new cars to 2.4% to 0.7% to 1.9%. You can see how a deceptive headline could be manufactured around the last two years of data.

neuralRiot 3y ago

DSG are wonderful but an added complexity for the sake of what? Shaving 0.5sec 0-60mph? Saving the hassle of slow traffic driving? Both can be fixed by learning to drive.

vGPU 3y ago

The difference between being forced to use one vs choosing to use one. I’ve driven some real nice autos, but when it comes to a car I enjoy driving, give me a nice sloppy GM T-56 or the crisp shifts of a BMW ZF stick. They’re just more fun. It’s the reason why I don’t have a C8 corvette. But when it comes to day to day puttering around, auto all the way, and give me as many convenience features as you have. Radar cruise control? Yes please. Nothing worse than riding your clutch for an hour straight every day.