5 ms·

Employers will always try to get you to undervalue yourself so they can get away with paying you as little as possible. Taking tools away from them that they us

Employers will always try to get you to undervalue yourself so they can get away with paying you as little as possible. Taking tools away from them that they use to do this is only a good thing.

phpisthebest 3y ago
While I 100% agree with wage transparency, just like I agree with price transparency for any other good... This idea that there is some evil conspiracy to screw people is crazy to me. Everyone wants to get the best price they can for anything, I am sure when you hire a HVAC person, or a plumber you are not looking to hire the most expensive person, you are looking to hire the best value... Why do people believe employment is something different than any other goods exchange, employers buy labor from the market no different you buy a computer monitor, or a plumber. I think everyone should have transparent pricing for everything, if Space X can post pricing to launch something into orbit, then dave the plumber can publish his rates, and Amce Corp can publish what they are paying employees... "Call for pricing" should be a thing of the past for products just like "We pay competitive wages" should be a thing of the past for job ads.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  > This idea that there is some evil conspiracy to screw people is crazy to me. Bruh. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... https://goodjobsfirst.org/conspiring-against-competition/ https://goodjobsfirst.org/conspiring-against-competition/ https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/14/business/economy/wages-antitrust-law-us.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/14/business/economy/wages-an... https://archive.ph/2022.03.07-193856/https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/07/business/economy/treasury-competition-report.html https://archive.ph/2022.03.07-193856/https://www.nytimes.com... https://www.justice.gov/atr/file/903511/download https://www.justice.gov/atr/file/903511/download
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    Bruh.... exceptions do not make a rule
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      If $96 billions in fines over two decades and thousands of companies doesn’t demonstrate a pattern, I don’t know what to tell you. Perhaps we’re haggling over the conspiracy ruler. Refer to your quote I quoted, and the data provided. There is clearly a broad effort to suppress wages, even if everyone involved isn’t getting together at a Skull and Bones convention to do it.
      - phpisthebest 3y ago
        you provided 5 links, about one 1 incident involving 5 companies and a possible 64,000 employees in a nation of almost 200 million working people..
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - mattgrice 3y ago
      It absolutely is a rule if 2 of most valuable companies on the planet are colluding. (Apple and Google). Most SW devs aren't FAANG or whatever you call it these days, but downward pressure trickles down to everyone.
      - phpisthebest 3y ago
        This seems to HN bias at work here.... Believing that what happens to Dev at 2 companies means everyone is impacted... This is like .0000000000001% of the work force.... FAANG devs really do have an inflated sense of self worth dont they
- genocidicbunny 3y ago
  > Why do people believe employment is something different than any other goods exchange, employers buy labor from the market no different you buy a computer monitor, or a plumber. They're at least a little different, as evidenced by how employment is treated legally. There's usually a significantly larger asymmetry of power in the employee-employer relationship than there is when you buy a good as a consumer.
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    Speaking for US Employment Largely created by government treating labor differently than any other good. It is ironic how government regulations creates a problem for which then we need ever increasing amounts of regulations to fix... Asymmetry comes from the wide ranges of things we have linked to employment via regulation such as health care....
    - genocidicbunny 3y ago
      I think people tend to forget how much of the regulations we have in the US related to labour arose because labour fought (and often bled and died) for. Sure we have problems like healthcare being tied to employment that are a result of some heavy-handed regulations in the WW2 era, but we also have things like a minimum wage, and overtime, workers comp..etc.
      - phpisthebest 3y ago
        This is somewhat revisionist in alot of cases. A lot of employment law is bottom up, it is top down. For example Walmart is on record advocating for an increase in the Min Wage Federally, they have zero positions they are currently paying at federal minimum wages so to them it costs them nothing, and it may have the advantage to taking out small businesses. Lots of regulation is the same way, written by and for large companies so ensure their competition can never have a competitive advantage. This is why over the last few decades the market has been massively consolidated, where the top 5 companies in a market used to control around 20% of a market, 80% of the market share for most markets are controlled by less than 5 companies.
- deprecative 3y ago
  There's no evil conspiracy. There are convergent interests. Wealth wants to retain wealth. Labor wants to get wealth for the labor. Employers want to spend as little as possible on labor to retain wealth. Our (US) tax policy encourages this behavior. Everyone should have transparent pricing - yes. It seems like you're just one layer of ignorance away from understanding what is actually going on. No conspiracy needed BUT that doesn't mean that there hasn't been conspiracies (note: not conspiracy theories) for wage/cost fixing.
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    >>It seems like you're just one layer of ignorance away from understanding what is actually going on. No, you seem to be one layer of ignorance away from understanding the economic reality, you are adding a layer of complexity to labor markets attempting to treat them differently from any other market. Has nothing to do with wealth at all....
    - deprecative 3y ago
      It has everything to do with wealth. Wealth is the basis of our economic systems. BTW, "no u" isn't a valid response. You can use it but nobody has any interest in continuing that discussion. Just like I no longer have any desire to converse with you regarding this. Have a good life.
      - phpisthebest 3y ago
        >Wealth is the basis of our economic systems. Only if you are an anti-capitalist that has swallowed the anti-capitalist propaganda hook line and sinker with the view that capitalism is evil and should be replaced with the utopia of socialism....
        orwin 3y ago
        This doesn't make any sense? Which capital do we talk about with the word 'capitalist'? Exactly. It's wealth. Capitalism is a system where the production is decided and owned by the capital owners. So, wealthy people. If bezos want a mega-yacht, a mega-yacht will be built.
- andrewjl 3y ago
  > This idea that there is some evil conspiracy to screw people is crazy to me. $203 million in wages stolen in the past 5 years, and that's just in New York.[1] The US Department of Labor recovered $3 billion in stolen wages 2017-2020.[2] A large portion of wage theft also slips through the cracks because of cash transactions that make it hard to catch or when it's difficult for victims to seek legal redress, such as when they are undocumented. But sure, there obviously is nothing to worry about. /s [1] https://www.propublica.org/article/thousands-of-new-york-workers-have-been-victims-of-wage-theft https://www.propublica.org/article/thousands-of-new-york-wor... [2] https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-theft-2021/ https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-theft-2021/
BlackEngineer 3y ago
I mean; that sounds like a personal problem. If you take responsibility for your life and are honest with yourself about the value you bring to the table, then what you’re saying is moot.
- deprecative 3y ago
  I often forget how techbro-libertarian this site can be. Carry on.

Employers will always try to get you to undervalue yourself so they can get away with paying you as little as possible. Taking tools away from them that they use to do this is only a good thing.

phpisthebest 3y ago

While I 100% agree with wage transparency, just like I agree with price transparency for any other good... This idea that there is some evil conspiracy to screw people is crazy to me. Everyone wants to get the best price they can for anything, I am sure when you hire a HVAC person, or a plumber you are not looking to hire the most expensive person, you are looking to hire the best value... Why do people believe employment is something different than any other goods exchange, employers buy labor from the market no different you buy a computer monitor, or a plumber. I think everyone should have transparent pricing for everything, if Space X can post pricing to launch something into orbit, then dave the plumber can publish his rates, and Amce Corp can publish what they are paying employees... "Call for pricing" should be a thing of the past for products just like "We pay competitive wages" should be a thing of the past for job ads.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
> This idea that there is some evil conspiracy to screw people is crazy to me. Bruh. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... https://goodjobsfirst.org/conspiring-against-competition/ https://goodjobsfirst.org/conspiring-against-competition/ https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/14/business/economy/wages-antitrust-law-us.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/14/business/economy/wages-an... https://archive.ph/2022.03.07-193856/https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/07/business/economy/treasury-competition-report.html https://archive.ph/2022.03.07-193856/https://www.nytimes.com... https://www.justice.gov/atr/file/903511/download https://www.justice.gov/atr/file/903511/download
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  Bruh.... exceptions do not make a rule
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    If $96 billions in fines over two decades and thousands of companies doesn’t demonstrate a pattern, I don’t know what to tell you. Perhaps we’re haggling over the conspiracy ruler. Refer to your quote I quoted, and the data provided. There is clearly a broad effort to suppress wages, even if everyone involved isn’t getting together at a Skull and Bones convention to do it.
    - phpisthebest 3y ago
      you provided 5 links, about one 1 incident involving 5 companies and a possible 64,000 employees in a nation of almost 200 million working people..
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - mattgrice 3y ago
    It absolutely is a rule if 2 of most valuable companies on the planet are colluding. (Apple and Google). Most SW devs aren't FAANG or whatever you call it these days, but downward pressure trickles down to everyone.
    - phpisthebest 3y ago
      This seems to HN bias at work here.... Believing that what happens to Dev at 2 companies means everyone is impacted... This is like .0000000000001% of the work force.... FAANG devs really do have an inflated sense of self worth dont they
genocidicbunny 3y ago
> Why do people believe employment is something different than any other goods exchange, employers buy labor from the market no different you buy a computer monitor, or a plumber. They're at least a little different, as evidenced by how employment is treated legally. There's usually a significantly larger asymmetry of power in the employee-employer relationship than there is when you buy a good as a consumer.
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  Speaking for US Employment Largely created by government treating labor differently than any other good. It is ironic how government regulations creates a problem for which then we need ever increasing amounts of regulations to fix... Asymmetry comes from the wide ranges of things we have linked to employment via regulation such as health care....
  - genocidicbunny 3y ago
    I think people tend to forget how much of the regulations we have in the US related to labour arose because labour fought (and often bled and died) for. Sure we have problems like healthcare being tied to employment that are a result of some heavy-handed regulations in the WW2 era, but we also have things like a minimum wage, and overtime, workers comp..etc.
    - phpisthebest 3y ago
      This is somewhat revisionist in alot of cases. A lot of employment law is bottom up, it is top down. For example Walmart is on record advocating for an increase in the Min Wage Federally, they have zero positions they are currently paying at federal minimum wages so to them it costs them nothing, and it may have the advantage to taking out small businesses. Lots of regulation is the same way, written by and for large companies so ensure their competition can never have a competitive advantage. This is why over the last few decades the market has been massively consolidated, where the top 5 companies in a market used to control around 20% of a market, 80% of the market share for most markets are controlled by less than 5 companies.
deprecative 3y ago
There's no evil conspiracy. There are convergent interests. Wealth wants to retain wealth. Labor wants to get wealth for the labor. Employers want to spend as little as possible on labor to retain wealth. Our (US) tax policy encourages this behavior. Everyone should have transparent pricing - yes. It seems like you're just one layer of ignorance away from understanding what is actually going on. No conspiracy needed BUT that doesn't mean that there hasn't been conspiracies (note: not conspiracy theories) for wage/cost fixing.
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  >>It seems like you're just one layer of ignorance away from understanding what is actually going on. No, you seem to be one layer of ignorance away from understanding the economic reality, you are adding a layer of complexity to labor markets attempting to treat them differently from any other market. Has nothing to do with wealth at all....
  - deprecative 3y ago
    It has everything to do with wealth. Wealth is the basis of our economic systems. BTW, "no u" isn't a valid response. You can use it but nobody has any interest in continuing that discussion. Just like I no longer have any desire to converse with you regarding this. Have a good life.
    - phpisthebest 3y ago
      >Wealth is the basis of our economic systems. Only if you are an anti-capitalist that has swallowed the anti-capitalist propaganda hook line and sinker with the view that capitalism is evil and should be replaced with the utopia of socialism....
      - orwin 3y ago
        This doesn't make any sense? Which capital do we talk about with the word 'capitalist'? Exactly. It's wealth. Capitalism is a system where the production is decided and owned by the capital owners. So, wealthy people. If bezos want a mega-yacht, a mega-yacht will be built.
andrewjl 3y ago
> This idea that there is some evil conspiracy to screw people is crazy to me. $203 million in wages stolen in the past 5 years, and that's just in New York.[1] The US Department of Labor recovered $3 billion in stolen wages 2017-2020.[2] A large portion of wage theft also slips through the cracks because of cash transactions that make it hard to catch or when it's difficult for victims to seek legal redress, such as when they are undocumented. But sure, there obviously is nothing to worry about. /s [1] https://www.propublica.org/article/thousands-of-new-york-workers-have-been-victims-of-wage-theft https://www.propublica.org/article/thousands-of-new-york-wor... [2] https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-theft-2021/ https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-theft-2021/

BlackEngineer 3y ago

I mean; that sounds like a personal problem. If you take responsibility for your life and are honest with yourself about the value you bring to the table, then what you’re saying is moot.

deprecative 3y ago
I often forget how techbro-libertarian this site can be. Carry on.