4 ms·

Competitive salaries with the US isn’t really a thing in countries with socialized healthcare, welfare, etc. With these institutions in place life looks qualita

by mtsr 3y ago

Competitive salaries with the US isn’t really a thing in countries with socialized healthcare, welfare, etc. With these institutions in place life looks qualitatively different at any salary. Problems start when these institutions get systematically dismantled and salaries don’t change to make up for them.

ak_111 3y ago
Competitive tech salaries in the US will almost certainly come with competitive health insurance and other benefits.
meinmissoula 3y ago
It looks like you've been misled about the US. The US welfare budget is mind-bogglingly large, over a Trillion dollars per year. Yes, Trillion with a T. Healthcare costs can be very important for Americans working in low-wage positions, but are essentially irrelevant for tech workers. Here's how healthcare costs impact my life on an hours-worked basis: Monthly health insurance premium: 20 minutes of my wage per month Office visit at a primary care doctor: 12 minutes of my wage Office visit at a specialist: 15 minutes of my wage Maximum amount I can possibly pay in a year (eg, if I get in a car accident and spend months in intensive care): 20 hours of my wage To be clear, the American who is driving Uber full-time or cooking food at McDonalds would have a drastically worse situation, and their costs might be multiple hours worked to see a doctor or multiple weeks of wages to cover a catastrophic hospitalization. But on a tech salary, healthcare is trivially covered.
- dkqmduems 3y ago
  It's not only health care. Child care is another big one. Some places that is effectively 0 minutes of wage.
- ffhhttt 3y ago
  > Monthly health insurance premium: 20 minutes of my wage per month Presumably your employer pays much more than that? Which still technically money you earn, you just don’t see it
emptysongglass 3y ago
This is selling the narrative that enables the continued wealth disparity of EU and UK tech workers. This narrative was bought into (by workers imagine that). For all our collective bargaining we've bought into our Stockholm Syndrome enough not to bargain for wage equality. With the salaries US tech workers are earning, healthcare, welfare and childcare benefits don't substantively impact their take-home for it to matter.
- itiro 3y ago
  Not as true with inflation here though. Anyone tech worker buying a home now needs a bigger down payment or will face a massive mortgage. Add in the inflation of food and hygiene products, a $100-$150k year salary has the buying power of $50k a couple decades ago. The politicians know exactly which screws to turn to prevent the proles from getting too much leverage. It’s been part of the playbook for decades, we were just not honest decades ago: https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/27/business/job-insecurity-of-workers-is-a-big-factor-in-fed-policy.html https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/27/business/job-insecurity-o... It’s all sleight of hand. Buying power is being nerfed to spank the kids into compliance.
  - emptysongglass 3y ago
    Inflation is much worse in the Eurozone https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/eurozone-inflation-rate:-is-inflation-worse-in-europe-or-the-us#:~:text=Overall%2C%20inflation%20is%20worse%20in,%25%20year-over-year https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/eurozone-inflation-rate:-is-....
- benhurmarcel 3y ago
  You seem to assume that workers could get higher salaries if only they were angry enough and believed they should get more. It's not the case, you're not going to get offers way above the current local market rate just because you believe that rate is too low.
  - emptysongglass 3y ago
    Correct, collective bargaining is "collective" after all and should be the job of our unions who are failing to negotiate on our behalf.
JPLeRouzic 3y ago
That's the case today in France, high taxes, poor salaries and crumbling social healthcare. I agree there are many causes well known even 15 years ago (including propensity to prefer social welfare to investments and hard work), but the collective blindness is astonishing.
- bakuninsbart 3y ago
  Same in Germany. I have relatively unspecific, but serious medical problems, and while I do receive standard GP and surgeon care, I've been waiting for months to see specialists regarding the underlying causes. Best guess of multiple doctors is to take antibiotics, which at this point seems like the medical professions "have you tried turning it off and on again?".
ffhhttt 3y ago
Or these things are mostly tangential? Why every time when someone points out the fact that tech workers in Europe are severely underpaid in relation the US someone always sees it as a personal attack. How does that in any way justify lower salaries pretax? > With these institutions in place life looks qualitatively different at any salary. I’m not sure it does. People who earn above the median rarely have access go welfare (unless its child related). Also working for an American tech company you’ll have decent insurance and can save another 50k per year just in case anyway..
jwestbury 3y ago
> With these institutions in place life looks qualitatively different at any salary. As someone who's worked at high income levels in both the US and the UK: The US is emphatically better at high income levels. The employer-paid benefits were miles ahead of my socialised care (or even private insurance) in the UK. Yes, they're employer-tied, and that's a real risk worth considering, but from a purely personal standpoint that's a risk I'm willing to take. (Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer that this wasn't the case, and that life was qualitatively better for lower earners even if it was marginally worse for high earners in the US.)

by mtsr 3y ago

ak_111 3y ago

Competitive tech salaries in the US will almost certainly come with competitive health insurance and other benefits.

meinmissoula 3y ago

It looks like you've been misled about the US. The US welfare budget is mind-bogglingly large, over a Trillion dollars per year. Yes, Trillion with a T. Healthcare costs can be very important for Americans working in low-wage positions, but are essentially irrelevant for tech workers. Here's how healthcare costs impact my life on an hours-worked basis: Monthly health insurance premium: 20 minutes of my wage per month Office visit at a primary care doctor: 12 minutes of my wage Office visit at a specialist: 15 minutes of my wage Maximum amount I can possibly pay in a year (eg, if I get in a car accident and spend months in intensive care): 20 hours of my wage To be clear, the American who is driving Uber full-time or cooking food at McDonalds would have a drastically worse situation, and their costs might be multiple hours worked to see a doctor or multiple weeks of wages to cover a catastrophic hospitalization. But on a tech salary, healthcare is trivially covered.

dkqmduems 3y ago
It's not only health care. Child care is another big one. Some places that is effectively 0 minutes of wage.
ffhhttt 3y ago
> Monthly health insurance premium: 20 minutes of my wage per month Presumably your employer pays much more than that? Which still technically money you earn, you just don’t see it

emptysongglass 3y ago

This is selling the narrative that enables the continued wealth disparity of EU and UK tech workers. This narrative was bought into (by workers imagine that). For all our collective bargaining we've bought into our Stockholm Syndrome enough not to bargain for wage equality. With the salaries US tech workers are earning, healthcare, welfare and childcare benefits don't substantively impact their take-home for it to matter.

itiro 3y ago
Not as true with inflation here though. Anyone tech worker buying a home now needs a bigger down payment or will face a massive mortgage. Add in the inflation of food and hygiene products, a $100-$150k year salary has the buying power of $50k a couple decades ago. The politicians know exactly which screws to turn to prevent the proles from getting too much leverage. It’s been part of the playbook for decades, we were just not honest decades ago: https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/27/business/job-insecurity-of-workers-is-a-big-factor-in-fed-policy.html https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/27/business/job-insecurity-o... It’s all sleight of hand. Buying power is being nerfed to spank the kids into compliance.
- emptysongglass 3y ago
  Inflation is much worse in the Eurozone https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/eurozone-inflation-rate:-is-inflation-worse-in-europe-or-the-us#:~:text=Overall%2C%20inflation%20is%20worse%20in,%25%20year-over-year https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/eurozone-inflation-rate:-is-....
benhurmarcel 3y ago
You seem to assume that workers could get higher salaries if only they were angry enough and believed they should get more. It's not the case, you're not going to get offers way above the current local market rate just because you believe that rate is too low.
- emptysongglass 3y ago
  Correct, collective bargaining is "collective" after all and should be the job of our unions who are failing to negotiate on our behalf.

JPLeRouzic 3y ago

That's the case today in France, high taxes, poor salaries and crumbling social healthcare. I agree there are many causes well known even 15 years ago (including propensity to prefer social welfare to investments and hard work), but the collective blindness is astonishing.

bakuninsbart 3y ago
Same in Germany. I have relatively unspecific, but serious medical problems, and while I do receive standard GP and surgeon care, I've been waiting for months to see specialists regarding the underlying causes. Best guess of multiple doctors is to take antibiotics, which at this point seems like the medical professions "have you tried turning it off and on again?".

ffhhttt 3y ago

Or these things are mostly tangential? Why every time when someone points out the fact that tech workers in Europe are severely underpaid in relation the US someone always sees it as a personal attack. How does that in any way justify lower salaries pretax? > With these institutions in place life looks qualitatively different at any salary. I’m not sure it does. People who earn above the median rarely have access go welfare (unless its child related). Also working for an American tech company you’ll have decent insurance and can save another 50k per year just in case anyway..

jwestbury 3y ago

> With these institutions in place life looks qualitatively different at any salary. As someone who's worked at high income levels in both the US and the UK: The US is emphatically better at high income levels. The employer-paid benefits were miles ahead of my socialised care (or even private insurance) in the UK. Yes, they're employer-tied, and that's a real risk worth considering, but from a purely personal standpoint that's a risk I'm willing to take. (Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer that this wasn't the case, and that life was qualitatively better for lower earners even if it was marginally worse for high earners in the US.)