13 ms·

‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

118 points by mellosouls 3y ago

barrysteve 3y ago
And all the warning they get is a random guardian article in the slew of media rain. This society is completely broken. My craving to return to the 1980s and 1990s is just getting worse and worse. We replaced so many functioning structures with an ocean of mirages. I legitmately have not seen an adult man who looks and acts like an authority figure should, in about fifteen years. I literally cannot take 90% of 'authorities' seriously. Their advice is self-serving and just telling the truth about circumnstances is enough to end the conversation and burn out emotions, never mind getting to the point in the conversation where an informed decision could be made. Discipline in the management structure used to be the backbone of society, now every level is scheming for themselves, and breaking the structure to get there. Or just low effort incompetence, understandable in the chaos. Or just friends killing time, promoting friends and family. Everybody's here today, gone tomorrow in commitment and planning and structuring some jobs is a chaotic nightmare. People keep leaning harder and harder into tech to ASSERT authority. Not a gosh darn soul in this country actually believes or cares what their phones/scheduling system tells them. The apps update every few weeks anyway and we can all sense the impending global lockdown coming, so why bother. And in this chaos we have to commit to literally any woman, have kids and a house and gamble our lives on the churn. Society used to be predictable and rational, now the media has gone to the dogs, the 'adults in the room' are not believable and are pushing more tech tyranny. There's literally nobody to turn to. Grifts and false hope is virulent. Churches just want you to do their thing, with zero practical application in the short term. The media is a total clusterF. The compassion from the comfortable families is a dismissive band aid, so they can go back to ignoring reality. If I were younger I'd join the military just for the permenant sense of order. Now don't mind me, I'm going to waste another 6 months battling C++ without anything to show for it, because solving some small tech problems is my best bet at keeping my sanity and providing a sense of achievement, that I <insert real name here> did something that was believable and good, before I lost it all to government and time. All people want from a regular joe, is to control him. Literally everyone and their dog gives their condemnation and their gut reaction as 'advice'. Then if you don't immediately comply, it's taken as sufficient reason to ignore you. Life hurts and then you die. Where is the children in that? waves my countries' flag sardonically
- alphabettsy 3y ago
  > Society used to be predictable and rational No. It really wasn’t. Read some history books. There was nothing uniquely great about the 80s-90s. Impending global lockdown? You might be well served from a lot less time online and more time with your fellow humans or nature.
  - barrysteve 3y ago
    Lol. I lived through the 80s and 90s. I don't need history books and I'm not going to correct you. It's a waste of 'breath' if your intial reaction is that. It is easy to doubt, doubt is cheap. When the time comes to say 'I told you so..' I won't want to and you won't want to remember. Tell me why deaths of despair have jumped up 100k. Then I'll accept your casual dismissiveness. Dismissiveness that is ripe 'online'.
    - ryanwaggoner 3y ago
      Tell me why deaths of despair have jumped up 100k. Answer: it's complicated. https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/republicans/2019/9/long-term-trends-in-deaths-of-despair https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/republicans/2019... We could probably come up with a lot of things that have improved since the 80s and 90s too. That doesn't mean things are dramatically improving. I hope you find some peace.
  - anon291 3y ago
    > Impending global lockdown? You might be well served from a lot less time online and more time with your fellow humans or nature. Please stop trying to gaslight people. I too would have thought such a thing impossible in 2019/early 2020, but we saw that that is not beyond our leaders. Many people in the world have a lot of trauma from the government-imposed lockdowns and subsequent seizing of basic human freedoms. Unfortunately, one is often unable to mention this trauma without being dismissed as a kook, which you are doing to OP. Please stop. Global lockdowns are now a thing that has happened and -- given the right circumstances -- may happen again. Given how recent it was, people should be cut some slack, even if you perceive them to be hyper-vigilant.
dudul 3y ago
> this Game of Thrones genetic push felt by men to have children”. Literally no idea what this means.
- mtreis86 3y ago
  They're talking legacy and heritage. “It’s the family name that lives on. It’s all that lives on. Not your honor, not your personal glory, family.” — Tywin Lannister
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    House of Duras would disagree.
  - chongli 3y ago
    "La familia es todo (family is all)." -- Salamanca motto. I find it funny how in popular fiction it's the villains who seem to care the most about family. Otherwise, family seems to be portrayed in a negative light these days.
- redeux 3y ago
  It’s explained by the next sentence. > Instead, he said: “There’s this mistaken belief that men are fertile across their lifespan, so there’s no imperative to get on with it.”
  - irrational 3y ago
    How does that relate to Game of Thrones? I’ve only seen the show and can’t think of any examples of that. Is there a character in the books who waits too long to have kids?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
theGeatZhopa 3y ago
I can't have kids. So am I big sad. Congratulations to all fathers out there. Want to adopt some poor kid and give him/her a possibility to have a kind of a standard life and to help to open a door to the world :( But a single man adopting is considered as pervert. So I am even bigger sad.
- corobo 3y ago
  > But a single man adopting is considered as pervert Is this evidence or assumption? Not challenging too hard just wondering if you've actually been called or treated like a perv or if it's something you assume will occur
  - bt4u 3y ago
    It will absolutely occur. Men who take their kids to the playground by themselves are often confronted (by moms of other kids). At some point things are so obvious that not many people are going to bother finding a peer reviewed study to cite. Maybe they should but they won't.
    - pertymcpert 3y ago
      I've never seen that happen myself, but I have heard of it. My only theory is that it happens in places which are heavily socially/politically conservative and "backwards", where women can't imagine men being an actual real parent.
      - mbg721 3y ago
        I live in a flyover state and have never had that sort of thing happen...I actually assumed the opposite, that socially/politically liberal areas would be less accustomed to seeing two-parent households and would be wealthy enough to have busybodies with too much time on their hands.
        pertymcpert 3y ago
delineator 3y ago
Don't just assume... 1. Create bumble account 2. Filter for Age: > 35, Kids: "Want someday" 3. Swipe right
- rambambram 3y ago
  > Filter for Age: > 35, Kids: "Want someday" And... you're in bed with a borderliner or covert narcissist before you know it. Maybe this important step is missing: vetting the prospective mother of your children for some time?
  - lisardo 3y ago
    I learned this lesson the hard way.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - MagaMuffin 3y ago
    [dead]
- Dudester230602 3y ago
  Might as well get a surrogate.
- francisofascii 3y ago
  Well, that is one action people could take. Agree that you should stop waiting and start a plan and start taking steps to make something happen. If it doesn't work, at least you tried.
- antisthenes 3y ago
  Surely you mean swipe left? Age 35+ woman without kids is such a massive red flag, it might as well be Communist China invading.
bell-cot 3y ago
Geezer* Perspective... [*If not in the USA, read "Old geezer". Credit: Aachen] Many varieties of "I really regret that I [did|didn't] do X when I was younger" occur in older humans. The stereotype of young men wanting to avoid all the work and commitment of setting down, marrying, and raising children is older than the pyramids. It is obviously not true of all young men, but there's very seldom been a shortage. Sure, their feelings may change as they grow older - but a young man whose main motive for marriage is "so I don't regret not having kids when I'm old" strikes me as a young man who the young women should avoid. In some cases, I get the sense that "I really regret not having children" is mostly a way of articulating "I am old and socially disconnected and feel lonely and depressed". In the modern world - where kids generally grow up and move far away for jobs - having had children would probably not help much with that.
- basisword 3y ago
  I feel like most young men have always wanted to extend their youth and avoid the responsibility that family life would bring. However, until recently (with easy access to birth control, abortion, and proper education) this wasn't really possible. You would accidentally have a child and be forced into the lifestyle you were trying to avoid. And most of the time things worked out and you were forced into a situation that's probably better for you rather than delaying it until it's too late. Now that we have 'choice' things are more difficult because you need to actually commit to something life changing. For most people it's impossible to know the 'right time' to do that or for them to have the courage necessary to take the change.
  - ant_li0n 3y ago
    Wow yeah you really hit the nail on the head for me. My wife and I weren't trying to have kids but we weren't trying not to have kids either, if you get my drift. Looking back on it, if we had been "smart" about deciding when the right time would happen, we might never have had kids. Having kids is hands-down the best thing I've ever done but also the hardest. Not because of the amount of work, because it's really not that much work. It's more of the dramatically uncomfortable shift in perspective: Realizing I'm not the main character in this story. It still hits me sometimes.
mlinhares 3y ago
I feel bad for the people that now want to have had children but didn't but as a father of two, if you didn't directly plan to have kids it might have been better that you didn't, kids take a lot of work, you have to be in the right place to do it. I used to be the person that said "yeah, go have kids" and now I'm "only do it if you're completely sure its what you want" because if you're not it's the children suffering through it.
- franze 3y ago
  Well, I have 2 sons. 25 and 15. I am 45. If you want to have kids, just have them. Or if they happen, let them happen. Yes, they are a lot of work. Yes, they are a lot of commitment. Lots of sleepless nights, lots of extra work as you want to be a father and a provider. But so what? Its not very complicated work, just lots of it. And life is too beautiful to slack around, so you can just as well spend them with your kids.
- pertymcpert 3y ago
  I don't think people should have kids very young, but if you're 25+ and you think you want kids some day, just let it happen. Don't worry about being ready, because nothing can truly prepare you for it. You will never be ready for your first child because there's nothing you can do to train for it. Just do it.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- basisword 3y ago
  >> kids take a lot of work, you have to be in the right place to do it. I think it's a certain type of personality that believes this. I know somebody who gets worried for certain friends/family having children because they don't own their house or have high paid jobs. They have a laundry list of todo's (mostly financial) before they will even consider having children. It's almost condescending but I choose to see it as more of an unnecessary fear/anxiety. People make do. People get knocked up, they get unemployed, they get help from friends and family where possible, and they love their kids just as much as the people who planned it on a Jira board.
pers0n 3y ago
Men can have children even in their 80s, rich people do it all the time.
- pavel_lishin 3y ago
  FTA: > Instead, he said: “There’s this mistaken belief that men are fertile across their lifespan, so there’s no imperative to get on with it.”
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    But it's true. Men don't have an expiration date on fertility like women do. As they get older, the chance of random infertility increases but this is something that's present at any age. The bigger impediment would be age difference though. I wouldn't want to have a child in my 50s as I'd be so out of sync with their life.
    - pavel_lishin 3y ago
      My friend has two children, and he's in his fifties. It presents certain challenges, but having children at any age presents challenges. I'd wager most of these men who are sad they missed out would rather have a child at 50 than never at all.
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  We are not built to chase around toddlers wanting to run towards danger at that age.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- polski-g 3y ago
  Schizophrenia risk of the child is proportional to the age of the father.
10g1k 3y ago
Evolution. It's programmed into you, the drive to reproduce. And that's a good thing. You won't understand how important and amazing it is until you have your own kid. NOTHING is more important.
- tr888 3y ago
  I really hate this attitude. It's a condescending and patronising attitude - that men who don't (or can't) have children are less. Are you really saying that absolutely nothing is more important than reproducing? For everyone, in every situation? I sincerely hope not.
  - halfmatthalfcat 3y ago
    If you look at things objectively, then yes, it is the most important for the species. If you look at things relatively, then no, there's a lot of factors at play and everyone does not need to have kids (overpopulation concerns, cost of living, personal preferences, etc). That being said, having kids brings so much perspective to a life already lived. You almost live a second (or third, forth, fifth, etc) life vicariously though them, so it's up there in "experiences to have".
    - tr888 3y ago
      It certainly is an experience, it's just not the only experience in life's rich tapestry!
    - hhjinks 3y ago
      Looking at things from the perspective of the species is not equivalent to looking at things objectively. Hell, there is no such thing as an objective measure of life. How can I objectively measure that a life is worth living? What if my child only lives for a few years, in agony due to getting cancer? Was such a short life worth the pain? It's impossible to say.
  - _V_ 3y ago
    Is it? I don't see anything patronising in there. It is just a statement. I don't think that people who cannot have children are seen as something less. This is just you wanting to be offended. And yes, in general there is almost nothing more important other than reproduction from the perspective of species. Nothing controversial about that either.
basisword 3y ago
Interesting article. I think part of the issue is education. We get lots of education and resources to help us not have children. But the logistics of finding a partner, maybe marrying, maybe buying property, and then starting to have children is ignored. You very suddenly reach an age as a man where you realise these things are all going to take time and that might be time you don't have. Or time your partner doesn't have. At a certain age, if you're still dating, you might need to start to date women slightly younger than yourself too, and before long you've aged out - you're too old to date a women still of child-bearing age. I've noticed in friends once they hit their thirties, things start to move quickly. New relationships no longer last 4 years before ending - they're engaged after 12 months and married within 24 months. The 'deadline' and pressure can be a good thing for some people. Others will make mistakes. So I think it's a mix of not understanding how early you need to start on the road to having children, mixed with the paradox of choice where people don't want to 'give up' all of their options and then leave it too late. I definitely think the number of childless men who regret it will grow massively with Millennials and Gen Z.
- xyzelement 3y ago
  It's similar to how people are now fatter and sicker despite access to more information and options vs prior generations. The limited choices before "happened to" line up to what is for many a healthier diet and exercise pattern. Similar with kids - there's less pressure to have kids now and easier excuses not to - but that road takes you to not a good place in the long run.
  - helmchenlord 3y ago
    Only a minority of people who don't have children regret it, so your last statement is definitely too broad. Most of us are happily child-free.
- hititncommitit 3y ago
  I agree with your last statement and with my close friends, I do try to broach this subject occasionally. I think there are many people who genuinely don’t want with kid. But there are many other people who just don’t really seem to have a good perspective on the timeline for these things. This is especially true with men. The idea that you can simply date younger strikes me as a bit foolish- I’ve got a ten year age split with my husband, I’m by no means against it, but I think these age differences come with issues of their own. I think 27 -33, both people around the same age. Is going the sweet spot for most people even it comes to children. The reality is: the decision to start a family it isn’t just about you. It’s also about your future grand kids. And while 40 might seem like it’s the right time for some…it’s rarely ideal in the grand scheme of things- that puts you at a strong chance of having health issues while your kids start families of their own. But meeting your grandkids if your kids make that same choice. It’s best I think to be at that phase in life when your kids are a bit more settled. On the other hand I think normalising most men marrying 30 year olds at 45 opens society up for a variety of problems. And that seems obvious to me even if I don’t think it’s true for everyone- or my relationship. That on a larger scale…it would cause problems. And perhaps aggravate things for the younger generation of men quite considerably.
tr888 3y ago
Tough topic. I have some personal experience with it. The thing I struggle most with is the fact that I am often looked down upon (either consciously or subconsciously) by those that have "achieved" parenthood. Having children is an odd status symbol in Western society.
- pertymcpert 3y ago
  > Having children is an odd status symbol in Western society. Funny, the exact opposite sentiment is mentioned in the article. I'm not sure who is right.
  - tr888 3y ago
    Yes, contrary to the article, the opposite is true (in my experience).
- sparrish 3y ago
  [flagged]
- xyzelement 3y ago
  // The thing I struggle most with is the fact that I am often looked down upon Much more likely, parents (and anyone else) don't think about you nearly as much as you think they do. Probably don't think of you at all. And they probably look at their kids as something they love and makes their live much richer, not a "status symbol."
- thefz 3y ago
  I'm a mom, what's your superpower?
jokoon 3y ago
I'm 38, and I'm socially unable to meet women outside of online dating, I've had enough girlfriend and a long, 8 years relationship (she did not want kids). I don't really understand that social norm of having kids. I can understand sexual desire, but is there really a "desire to have kids"? Is having kids really some kind of moral imperative to "continue the human species"? Anyway, women have high standards, which is normal, so it's normal that a lot of men will be left on the side. And women also suffer for not having kids if they wanted to.
- MattPalmer1086 3y ago
  You can certainly desire to have kids, just like you can desire to have anything.
- fra 3y ago
  > I can understand sexual desire, but is there really a "desire to have kids"? Yes, unequivocally there is such a thing as a "desire to have kids". Speaking for myself and many others I know!
- xyzzy4747 3y ago
  Yes, there is a desire. I’m 36 and recently had my first with my wife and hoping for another sometime.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- francisofascii 3y ago
  > is there really a "desire to have kids" Sometimes the parental instinct or desire activates the moment the kid is born, but is not present before that. It it an interesting phenomenon.
- em-bee 3y ago
  I can understand sexual desire, but is there really a "desire to have kids"? there is even a desire for kids without desire for sex. which can be filled with adoption. the desire that i don't understand or feel is the need to have kids to be my biological descendants i see my kids as given to me as a responsibility to raise and care for. regardless of our biological relationship. for me "i want kids" means "i want that responsibility"
TheChaplain 3y ago
Spending a lot more time with my aging father, I see a certain joy and pride in him whenever we are doing things together, a feeling that I will myself never know. Instead I chose career, travel and education early in life, and while I do not regret it.. Later in life I noticed that for me such accomplishments feel worth about 5 minutes of cold talk in social events, even more among those who warmly talk about their grandchildren and even great grandchildren. Each of us have a limited time here, and we make choices that (hopefully) makes it worthwhile. Though perhaps, the choices I made left a feeling of emptiness..
- xyzelement 3y ago
  // while I do not regret it... feel worth about 5 minutes of cold talk... the choices I made left a feeling of emptiness.. I appreciate your candor and vulnerability with us here. But I can't help but read a good amount of regret in your post, in line with the article. As middle aged / older guys, there's significance to the message we send out. Perhaps someone reading your post will be inspired to pause and re evaluate their choice based on what you wrote. Thank yku.
bitsandbooks 3y ago
We ought to be converting these people into adoptive or foster parents.
- malfist 3y ago
  Yeah, I agree. There's an easy solution for regret of not having kids, adoption. It'll be better for you and for the kid(s). There's no reason this childless person can't change his situation if he's capable of caring for a kid.
  - Steltek 3y ago
    This person is 72 years old. Maybe people don't understand what parents mean by "kids take a lot of work". Take everything you do right now and double it. Maybe triple it, because it's harder when they don't know what they're doing at all and you need to teach as you go. All your household chores: double. Work: double (homework). Getting friggin' dressed in the morning: double. Wake up extra early too because school starts at 7:30 and they can't eat their own breakfast in a timely fashion, let alone make it. That's not to mention that at 72 years old, there's a good chance he's going to keel over and leave that child fatherless pretty soon. Super traumatically too because guess who's going to find his body after he passed in his sleep?
    - malfist 3y ago
      This person in the article might be too old to adopt, but that doesn't apply to everyone in his boat. It also doesn't stop him from fostering.
- tr888 3y ago
  I somewhat agree, but 2 things: - Adoption/fostering isn't actually a guarantee for all people. It's a challenging process that may or may not be successful. - Just some gentle advice: mentioning "just adopt" to people suffering infertility is considered a faux-pas. It's best to avoid it.
- anon291 3y ago
gpgn 3y ago
A relevant documentary, although slightly more about women and the world in general, is Birthgap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6s8QlIGanA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6s8QlIGanA, where they talk about "unplanned childlessness"
dghughes 3y ago
I'm in the same boat. Just a shy kid who never got over it. My grandfather died when I was three and I think it hit Dad hard. I was determined to find a woman and have children even if it meant doing so if not married. My Catholic parents were very against that it was unspoken but very obvious in their attitude. My Dad died a few years ago so my plan fell apart. Now Mom is old so she is not long for this world either. But even so I am early 50s so unless I win a lot of money, get famous fast, find a foreign wife (who won't murder me), or somehow father a child I'm SOL. It is depressing especially seeing in later life how family support is great to have. When I'm old I'll have nobody. And I mean just regular stuff having someone to drive you to appointments, help with home repairs, finances. There are a lot of scammers and bad people ready to pounce on elderly. We need old time forced dances where a lot of us shy folks are forced to interact.
- Gigachad 3y ago
  Having kids is no guarantee of getting help when you are old. Quite a few people I know refuse to have any contact with their parents.
hackeraccount 3y ago
I'd regret not getting married a lot more then not having kids.
- Dudester230602 3y ago
  If one likes signing unfavourable contracts with the government, there are non-matrimonial ones available I am sure?
Scubabear68 3y ago
I’m can say that, for our family at least, adoption was an alternate route. There are many, many children here in the US who’s parents have died or who whose parents have had their parental rights terminated for cause. 8 years ago we adopted a 3 year old and a 7 year old, and the lack of biological link barely matters (it only comes up due to racial differences). If you are a basically decent human and can support yourself and a child, give a look at adoption rather than having this regret for your lifetime.
wkat4242 3y ago
I'm surprised there's so many men that genuinely want kids. I've never had that desire, I know it's more commonplace in women. Most of my friends who have them were basically doing it for the wife even though they loved their kids when they appeared on the scene. But it was not something they would have chosen. But anyway good for them. I'm glad I never had any and I have no regrets.
- xyzelement 3y ago
  // doing it for the wife even though they loved their kids when they appeared on the scene Are you sure? People aren't stupid and then they marry a woman who wants kids and then agree to have kids with her, they are not doing it against their will. The fact that they are happy and love the kids once they arrive suggests they had room inside them for that happiness and love to begin with and they just allowed the wife to be the impetus to it.
- drewcoo 3y ago
  > I know it's more commonplace in women. There are plenty of women who are perfectly happy without kids, too. And that doesn't mean those men and women don't like kids or don't have kids in their lives. It's nice to get some kid time. And it's nice to go home later and not have to deal with them. Or the inevitable ex spouses.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    > There are plenty of women who are perfectly happy without kids, too. I wish I'd find some :) For me it has generally been a breaking point in relations or at least a very contentious point. However at this point I'm so old that with a partner of the same age it's simply not really relevant anymore. Either they have never had them, have had them and they grew up, or they just can't get them anymore.
2-718-281-828 3y ago
> When that is not by choice, regret can grow into pain. This thinking is flawed. Here's the solution and your road to happiness. Foster the ability to accept, be grateful and by that weaken tendencies to regret. Because _this_ is the only difference between people who regret when they are old (or pretty much any other time in their life) and those who don't. That's all. What you practice is what you become. You practice regretting and you don't have children => you'll regret that. You practice regretting and you do have children => you'll either regret that or something else. It's that simple. > he tries to stay indoors and ignore the family celebrations outside. there you have it - that's the attitude which has you likely end up lonely. he just keeps up the old pattern without reflecting. why not participate in one way or another. he doesn't have a son or daughter but he can have positive interactions. instead - he stays indoors to protect himself emotionally. > So many ambushes and triggers for my anguish. it's ambushes and triggers. looking for reasons of your pain outside of yourself is human and normal - we all do it - but it's often not going to make positive difference. ... won't bother reading on - this article is lacking any deeper reflection and almost reads like a government ordered attempt to disseminate FUD in men to manipulate the birth rate positively.
WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
> 25% of men over 42 do not have children – 5% more than women of the same age group In another generation, I believe this number will jump. That's mostly because of current economics. Two people making the most commonly earned wages can not afford housing (then add sharply increased costs of insurances and transportation). Stated otherwise, most couples can't afford to be an independent couple.
Tangurena2 3y ago
I wanted to get married and have kids. Being rather effeminate, I don't attract the women who do want to have kids. I was about 40 when I finally realized that if she said she didn't want kids, she really meant it and it was not negotiable. I swore a vow: no more childless relationships. Being in no relationship is far better than being in the wrong relationship. When I tried to adopt, Florida's child welfare agency decided - after doing a background check - decided to declare me "legally gay" since I was heavily involved in LGBT rights (all my friends were lesbians and I was mad at how badly they were treated). And back then, it was illegal in FL for gays/lesbians to adopt. Not that I was/am one.
- _V_ 3y ago
  Wtf? O.O How can you be declared "legally gay"? That sounds like something from a dystopian novel...
  - Tangurena2 3y ago
    The attitude was that "no hetero would do that sort of thing." A similar attitude for race relations would be to use the "one drop rule" [0] against white-looking [1] supporters of civil rights for blacks (back in the 1950s & 1960s), that since no white would do that, I must have some black blood in my ancestry and therefore I'd be legally black. > In the United States, the “one-drop rule” — also known as hypodescent — dates to a 1662 Virginia law on the treatment of mixed-race individuals. The legal notion of hypodescent has been upheld as recently as 1985, when a Louisiana court ruled that a woman with a black great-great-great-great-grandmother could not identify herself as “white” on her passport. [2] > Not only does the one-drop rule apply to no other group than American blacks, but apparently the rule is unique in that it is found only in the United States and not in any other nation in the world. In fact, definitions of who is black vary quite sharply from country to country, and for this reason people in other countries often express consternation about our definition. > The phenomenon known as "passing as white" is difficult to explain in other countries or to foreign students. [3] This happened back in the 1990s. In 2007, Florida repealed the ban on homosexuals adopting, but I had left the state years before. 0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_(racial_identity) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_(racial_identity) 2 - https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2010/12/one-drop-rule-persists/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2010/12/one-drop-rule... 3 - https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/mixed/onedrop.html https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/mix...
Tade0 3y ago
I was born around a decade before my country's fertility rate went below replacement and the social change this shift brought is staggering. As a child I assumed most of my peers would go the usual route, so eventually start a family. Being in my mid 30s now I'm the only one out of three siblings who is a parent and in my immediate social circle there are just two others - that's three out of at least twelve people. The rest are either single, divorced or just childless, with no plan for starting a family in the foreseeable future(or ever) with maybe one exception, but if you asked me two years ago about that person's prospects I would have to say the were looking bleak. I don't go around asking people why aren't they having children, but those who did tell me cite either finances or unwillingness to give up their current lives - sometimes both.
bell-cot 3y ago
Another thought... Over {mumble} decades, I've been stereotyped as good uncle / father / grandfather / etc. material pretty often, based on how I reacted to or interacted with various kids. I've also seen quite a few men react less well to young children, and had less-favorable stereotypes quickly applied to them. I wonder how the men featured in the article were stereotyped when younger. Back when couples mostly got together in larger/richer social contexts (churches, tighter-knit communities, etc.) - having the young women hearing unflattering whispers (about a young man's parenting aptitude) could certainly dim his prospects for having children.
neilv 3y ago
I love teaching/interacting with the occasional good-natured, learning-sponge kids, but the stars haven't yet aligned to have kids of my own. Now that I'm 50-ish, although I'm energetic and not yet noticeably graying, when I think about kids of my own, I have to consider: * A dear friend adored her father, and when he died while she was in college, she was devastated. I could nurture a kid to be resilient in that possibility, but I don't like the idea of setting them up for that possibility to be not-unlikely. * I'd want the other parent to be a life partner, and that probably means in a close age bracket. So biological clocks are a factor, at least for building from scratch. Or, if partner is significantly younger, that means we'd have to consider how much time we could have before the woman likely outlives the man, and where that would leave her. That said, I haven't written off the idea of a family, and I'm paying every month to keep a life insurance policy, just in case there's someday a family who might need it.
- em-bee 3y ago
  depending on what culture you are from you may have a challenge to find someone your age who still wants to have kids (even adopted ones)
slothtrop 3y ago
There is an analogous grief for those dealing with a broken adoption system. I know someone who cared for a newborn for 9 months, before it was forcibly taken away at the request of the biological grandparents. This is in Canada, so you can guess why. They loved and cared for it as any parent would.
psychlops 3y ago
An article concerned about men? The world is certainly changing.
sershe 3y ago
One thing that definitely skews the reporting of this is that it's socially acceptable to admit you regret not having kids, but it's absolutely not socially acceptable to admit you regret having kids.
- xyzelement 3y ago
  Do you expect that this skew would meaningfully alter the conclusion? That there are many men on their deathbed who wish they had more time for brunch in their life vs the hard work of parenting?
  - ryanwaggoner 3y ago
    Do you think what people long for on their deathbed should dictate their life decisions, as opposed to how they felt and viewed their life for the thousands of days that came before?
    - xyzelement 3y ago
      The deathbed is shorthand for retrospecting on your life from the perspective of maximum information and no time left to alter course. It's proxy for the question of whether you've lived a life that deeply resonated with your values, instincts, desire for meaning, etc. Or did you just pass time. To answer your literal question -imagine someone dying from lung cancer in their 40s. If they regret smoking and wish they never started, should that have, in retrospect, dictate their life decisions? Or do the "thousands of days" they happily smoked matter more? I find that most success in life comes from this ability to mentally associate with your ultimate self and do things today that will make that person most satisfied. Which happens to also be way more satisfying in the moment.
  - sershe 3y ago
    Yeah, as a matter of fact I do. Even the snideness of this comment is revealing for how extreme the bias is :) The spectrum goes from, I've talked to quite a few people who only talk about negatives of having kids as long as they are talking about anything specific (health, hobbies, friends, work, even their spouse), but as soon as they start talking in abstract they reiterate how having kids / their kid is great. Usually 5 minutes after an endless stream of complaining. It's either Stokholm syndrome or social desirability bias... To, I know / knew lots of people who are either terrible to their children or whose parents were reportedly terrible to them, anywhere from emotional distance and clearly not wanting them around, to outright physical abuse or extremely controlling behavior, or basically abandoning them to their own devices. I fully expect people like that to regret having kids, but I've never heard or read anyone admit it. I think having kids is a boring chore that (pretty much by definition) nearly anyone can learn to do. Sure, it might be necessary, but that combination makes it about as special, fulfilling and exciting as farming rice. Most would rather have brunch, so perhaps we should pay people to do it. Except that with kids, you cannot admit that you'd rather have done something else... Of course comparing to "brunch" is done in the same snide spirit, but even disregarding pastimes that are actually fulfilling, I'd also much rather have more brunch :)

118 points by mellosouls 3y ago

And all the warning they get is a random guardian article in the slew of media rain. This society is completely broken. My craving to return to the 1980s and 1990s is just getting worse and worse. We replaced so many functioning structures with an ocean of mirages. I legitmately have not seen an adult man who looks and acts like an authority figure should, in about fifteen years. I literally cannot take 90% of 'authorities' seriously. Their advice is self-serving and just telling the truth about circumnstances is enough to end the conversation and burn out emotions, never mind getting to the point in the conversation where an informed decision could be made. Discipline in the management structure used to be the backbone of society, now every level is scheming for themselves, and breaking the structure to get there. Or just low effort incompetence, understandable in the chaos. Or just friends killing time, promoting friends and family. Everybody's here today, gone tomorrow in commitment and planning and structuring some jobs is a chaotic nightmare. People keep leaning harder and harder into tech to ASSERT authority. Not a gosh darn soul in this country actually believes or cares what their phones/scheduling system tells them. The apps update every few weeks anyway and we can all sense the impending global lockdown coming, so why bother. And in this chaos we have to commit to literally any woman, have kids and a house and gamble our lives on the churn. Society used to be predictable and rational, now the media has gone to the dogs, the 'adults in the room' are not believable and are pushing more tech tyranny. There's literally nobody to turn to. Grifts and false hope is virulent. Churches just want you to do their thing, with zero practical application in the short term. The media is a total clusterF. The compassion from the comfortable families is a dismissive band aid, so they can go back to ignoring reality. If I were younger I'd join the military just for the permenant sense of order. Now don't mind me, I'm going to waste another 6 months battling C++ without anything to show for it, because solving some small tech problems is my best bet at keeping my sanity and providing a sense of achievement, that I <insert real name here> did something that was believable and good, before I lost it all to government and time. All people want from a regular joe, is to control him. Literally everyone and their dog gives their condemnation and their gut reaction as 'advice'. Then if you don't immediately comply, it's taken as sufficient reason to ignore you. Life hurts and then you die. Where is the children in that? waves my countries' flag sardonically

alphabettsy 3y ago
> Society used to be predictable and rational No. It really wasn’t. Read some history books. There was nothing uniquely great about the 80s-90s. Impending global lockdown? You might be well served from a lot less time online and more time with your fellow humans or nature.
- barrysteve 3y ago
  Lol. I lived through the 80s and 90s. I don't need history books and I'm not going to correct you. It's a waste of 'breath' if your intial reaction is that. It is easy to doubt, doubt is cheap. When the time comes to say 'I told you so..' I won't want to and you won't want to remember. Tell me why deaths of despair have jumped up 100k. Then I'll accept your casual dismissiveness. Dismissiveness that is ripe 'online'.
  - ryanwaggoner 3y ago
    Tell me why deaths of despair have jumped up 100k. Answer: it's complicated. https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/republicans/2019/9/long-term-trends-in-deaths-of-despair https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/republicans/2019... We could probably come up with a lot of things that have improved since the 80s and 90s too. That doesn't mean things are dramatically improving. I hope you find some peace.
- anon291 3y ago
  > Impending global lockdown? You might be well served from a lot less time online and more time with your fellow humans or nature. Please stop trying to gaslight people. I too would have thought such a thing impossible in 2019/early 2020, but we saw that that is not beyond our leaders. Many people in the world have a lot of trauma from the government-imposed lockdowns and subsequent seizing of basic human freedoms. Unfortunately, one is often unable to mention this trauma without being dismissed as a kook, which you are doing to OP. Please stop. Global lockdowns are now a thing that has happened and -- given the right circumstances -- may happen again. Given how recent it was, people should be cut some slack, even if you perceive them to be hyper-vigilant.

dudul 3y ago

> this Game of Thrones genetic push felt by men to have children”. Literally no idea what this means.

mtreis86 3y ago
They're talking legacy and heritage. “It’s the family name that lives on. It’s all that lives on. Not your honor, not your personal glory, family.” — Tywin Lannister
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  House of Duras would disagree.
- chongli 3y ago
  "La familia es todo (family is all)." -- Salamanca motto. I find it funny how in popular fiction it's the villains who seem to care the most about family. Otherwise, family seems to be portrayed in a negative light these days.
redeux 3y ago
It’s explained by the next sentence. > Instead, he said: “There’s this mistaken belief that men are fertile across their lifespan, so there’s no imperative to get on with it.”
- irrational 3y ago
  How does that relate to Game of Thrones? I’ve only seen the show and can’t think of any examples of that. Is there a character in the books who waits too long to have kids?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

theGeatZhopa 3y ago

I can't have kids. So am I big sad. Congratulations to all fathers out there. Want to adopt some poor kid and give him/her a possibility to have a kind of a standard life and to help to open a door to the world :( But a single man adopting is considered as pervert. So I am even bigger sad.

corobo 3y ago
> But a single man adopting is considered as pervert Is this evidence or assumption? Not challenging too hard just wondering if you've actually been called or treated like a perv or if it's something you assume will occur
- bt4u 3y ago
  It will absolutely occur. Men who take their kids to the playground by themselves are often confronted (by moms of other kids). At some point things are so obvious that not many people are going to bother finding a peer reviewed study to cite. Maybe they should but they won't.
  - pertymcpert 3y ago
    I've never seen that happen myself, but I have heard of it. My only theory is that it happens in places which are heavily socially/politically conservative and "backwards", where women can't imagine men being an actual real parent.
    - mbg721 3y ago
      I live in a flyover state and have never had that sort of thing happen...I actually assumed the opposite, that socially/politically liberal areas would be less accustomed to seeing two-parent households and would be wealthy enough to have busybodies with too much time on their hands.
      - pertymcpert 3y ago

delineator 3y ago

Don't just assume... 1. Create bumble account 2. Filter for Age: > 35, Kids: "Want someday" 3. Swipe right

rambambram 3y ago
> Filter for Age: > 35, Kids: "Want someday" And... you're in bed with a borderliner or covert narcissist before you know it. Maybe this important step is missing: vetting the prospective mother of your children for some time?
- lisardo 3y ago
  I learned this lesson the hard way.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- MagaMuffin 3y ago
  [dead]
Dudester230602 3y ago
Might as well get a surrogate.
francisofascii 3y ago
Well, that is one action people could take. Agree that you should stop waiting and start a plan and start taking steps to make something happen. If it doesn't work, at least you tried.
antisthenes 3y ago
Surely you mean swipe left? Age 35+ woman without kids is such a massive red flag, it might as well be Communist China invading.

bell-cot 3y ago

Geezer* Perspective... [*If not in the USA, read "Old geezer". Credit: Aachen] Many varieties of "I really regret that I [did|didn't] do X when I was younger" occur in older humans. The stereotype of young men wanting to avoid all the work and commitment of setting down, marrying, and raising children is older than the pyramids. It is obviously not true of all young men, but there's very seldom been a shortage. Sure, their feelings may change as they grow older - but a young man whose main motive for marriage is "so I don't regret not having kids when I'm old" strikes me as a young man who the young women should avoid. In some cases, I get the sense that "I really regret not having children" is mostly a way of articulating "I am old and socially disconnected and feel lonely and depressed". In the modern world - where kids generally grow up and move far away for jobs - having had children would probably not help much with that.

basisword 3y ago
I feel like most young men have always wanted to extend their youth and avoid the responsibility that family life would bring. However, until recently (with easy access to birth control, abortion, and proper education) this wasn't really possible. You would accidentally have a child and be forced into the lifestyle you were trying to avoid. And most of the time things worked out and you were forced into a situation that's probably better for you rather than delaying it until it's too late. Now that we have 'choice' things are more difficult because you need to actually commit to something life changing. For most people it's impossible to know the 'right time' to do that or for them to have the courage necessary to take the change.
- ant_li0n 3y ago
  Wow yeah you really hit the nail on the head for me. My wife and I weren't trying to have kids but we weren't trying not to have kids either, if you get my drift. Looking back on it, if we had been "smart" about deciding when the right time would happen, we might never have had kids. Having kids is hands-down the best thing I've ever done but also the hardest. Not because of the amount of work, because it's really not that much work. It's more of the dramatically uncomfortable shift in perspective: Realizing I'm not the main character in this story. It still hits me sometimes.

mlinhares 3y ago

I feel bad for the people that now want to have had children but didn't but as a father of two, if you didn't directly plan to have kids it might have been better that you didn't, kids take a lot of work, you have to be in the right place to do it. I used to be the person that said "yeah, go have kids" and now I'm "only do it if you're completely sure its what you want" because if you're not it's the children suffering through it.

franze 3y ago
Well, I have 2 sons. 25 and 15. I am 45. If you want to have kids, just have them. Or if they happen, let them happen. Yes, they are a lot of work. Yes, they are a lot of commitment. Lots of sleepless nights, lots of extra work as you want to be a father and a provider. But so what? Its not very complicated work, just lots of it. And life is too beautiful to slack around, so you can just as well spend them with your kids.
pertymcpert 3y ago
I don't think people should have kids very young, but if you're 25+ and you think you want kids some day, just let it happen. Don't worry about being ready, because nothing can truly prepare you for it. You will never be ready for your first child because there's nothing you can do to train for it. Just do it.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
basisword 3y ago
>> kids take a lot of work, you have to be in the right place to do it. I think it's a certain type of personality that believes this. I know somebody who gets worried for certain friends/family having children because they don't own their house or have high paid jobs. They have a laundry list of todo's (mostly financial) before they will even consider having children. It's almost condescending but I choose to see it as more of an unnecessary fear/anxiety. People make do. People get knocked up, they get unemployed, they get help from friends and family where possible, and they love their kids just as much as the people who planned it on a Jira board.

pers0n 3y ago

Men can have children even in their 80s, rich people do it all the time.

pavel_lishin 3y ago
FTA: > Instead, he said: “There’s this mistaken belief that men are fertile across their lifespan, so there’s no imperative to get on with it.”
- wkat4242 3y ago
  But it's true. Men don't have an expiration date on fertility like women do. As they get older, the chance of random infertility increases but this is something that's present at any age. The bigger impediment would be age difference though. I wouldn't want to have a child in my 50s as I'd be so out of sync with their life.
  - pavel_lishin 3y ago
    My friend has two children, and he's in his fifties. It presents certain challenges, but having children at any age presents challenges. I'd wager most of these men who are sad they missed out would rather have a child at 50 than never at all.
mensetmanusman 3y ago
We are not built to chase around toddlers wanting to run towards danger at that age.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
polski-g 3y ago
Schizophrenia risk of the child is proportional to the age of the father.

10g1k 3y ago

Evolution. It's programmed into you, the drive to reproduce. And that's a good thing. You won't understand how important and amazing it is until you have your own kid. NOTHING is more important.

tr888 3y ago
I really hate this attitude. It's a condescending and patronising attitude - that men who don't (or can't) have children are less. Are you really saying that absolutely nothing is more important than reproducing? For everyone, in every situation? I sincerely hope not.
- halfmatthalfcat 3y ago
  If you look at things objectively, then yes, it is the most important for the species. If you look at things relatively, then no, there's a lot of factors at play and everyone does not need to have kids (overpopulation concerns, cost of living, personal preferences, etc). That being said, having kids brings so much perspective to a life already lived. You almost live a second (or third, forth, fifth, etc) life vicariously though them, so it's up there in "experiences to have".
  - tr888 3y ago
    It certainly is an experience, it's just not the only experience in life's rich tapestry!
  - hhjinks 3y ago
    Looking at things from the perspective of the species is not equivalent to looking at things objectively. Hell, there is no such thing as an objective measure of life. How can I objectively measure that a life is worth living? What if my child only lives for a few years, in agony due to getting cancer? Was such a short life worth the pain? It's impossible to say.
- _V_ 3y ago
  Is it? I don't see anything patronising in there. It is just a statement. I don't think that people who cannot have children are seen as something less. This is just you wanting to be offended. And yes, in general there is almost nothing more important other than reproduction from the perspective of species. Nothing controversial about that either.

basisword 3y ago

Interesting article. I think part of the issue is education. We get lots of education and resources to help us not have children. But the logistics of finding a partner, maybe marrying, maybe buying property, and then starting to have children is ignored. You very suddenly reach an age as a man where you realise these things are all going to take time and that might be time you don't have. Or time your partner doesn't have. At a certain age, if you're still dating, you might need to start to date women slightly younger than yourself too, and before long you've aged out - you're too old to date a women still of child-bearing age. I've noticed in friends once they hit their thirties, things start to move quickly. New relationships no longer last 4 years before ending - they're engaged after 12 months and married within 24 months. The 'deadline' and pressure can be a good thing for some people. Others will make mistakes. So I think it's a mix of not understanding how early you need to start on the road to having children, mixed with the paradox of choice where people don't want to 'give up' all of their options and then leave it too late. I definitely think the number of childless men who regret it will grow massively with Millennials and Gen Z.

xyzelement 3y ago
It's similar to how people are now fatter and sicker despite access to more information and options vs prior generations. The limited choices before "happened to" line up to what is for many a healthier diet and exercise pattern. Similar with kids - there's less pressure to have kids now and easier excuses not to - but that road takes you to not a good place in the long run.
- helmchenlord 3y ago
  Only a minority of people who don't have children regret it, so your last statement is definitely too broad. Most of us are happily child-free.
hititncommitit 3y ago
I agree with your last statement and with my close friends, I do try to broach this subject occasionally. I think there are many people who genuinely don’t want with kid. But there are many other people who just don’t really seem to have a good perspective on the timeline for these things. This is especially true with men. The idea that you can simply date younger strikes me as a bit foolish- I’ve got a ten year age split with my husband, I’m by no means against it, but I think these age differences come with issues of their own. I think 27 -33, both people around the same age. Is going the sweet spot for most people even it comes to children. The reality is: the decision to start a family it isn’t just about you. It’s also about your future grand kids. And while 40 might seem like it’s the right time for some…it’s rarely ideal in the grand scheme of things- that puts you at a strong chance of having health issues while your kids start families of their own. But meeting your grandkids if your kids make that same choice. It’s best I think to be at that phase in life when your kids are a bit more settled. On the other hand I think normalising most men marrying 30 year olds at 45 opens society up for a variety of problems. And that seems obvious to me even if I don’t think it’s true for everyone- or my relationship. That on a larger scale…it would cause problems. And perhaps aggravate things for the younger generation of men quite considerably.

tr888 3y ago

Tough topic. I have some personal experience with it. The thing I struggle most with is the fact that I am often looked down upon (either consciously or subconsciously) by those that have "achieved" parenthood. Having children is an odd status symbol in Western society.

pertymcpert 3y ago
> Having children is an odd status symbol in Western society. Funny, the exact opposite sentiment is mentioned in the article. I'm not sure who is right.
- tr888 3y ago
  Yes, contrary to the article, the opposite is true (in my experience).
sparrish 3y ago
[flagged]
xyzelement 3y ago
// The thing I struggle most with is the fact that I am often looked down upon Much more likely, parents (and anyone else) don't think about you nearly as much as you think they do. Probably don't think of you at all. And they probably look at their kids as something they love and makes their live much richer, not a "status symbol."
thefz 3y ago
I'm a mom, what's your superpower?

jokoon 3y ago

I'm 38, and I'm socially unable to meet women outside of online dating, I've had enough girlfriend and a long, 8 years relationship (she did not want kids). I don't really understand that social norm of having kids. I can understand sexual desire, but is there really a "desire to have kids"? Is having kids really some kind of moral imperative to "continue the human species"? Anyway, women have high standards, which is normal, so it's normal that a lot of men will be left on the side. And women also suffer for not having kids if they wanted to.

MattPalmer1086 3y ago
You can certainly desire to have kids, just like you can desire to have anything.
fra 3y ago
> I can understand sexual desire, but is there really a "desire to have kids"? Yes, unequivocally there is such a thing as a "desire to have kids". Speaking for myself and many others I know!
xyzzy4747 3y ago
Yes, there is a desire. I’m 36 and recently had my first with my wife and hoping for another sometime.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
francisofascii 3y ago
> is there really a "desire to have kids" Sometimes the parental instinct or desire activates the moment the kid is born, but is not present before that. It it an interesting phenomenon.
em-bee 3y ago
I can understand sexual desire, but is there really a "desire to have kids"? there is even a desire for kids without desire for sex. which can be filled with adoption. the desire that i don't understand or feel is the need to have kids to be my biological descendants i see my kids as given to me as a responsibility to raise and care for. regardless of our biological relationship. for me "i want kids" means "i want that responsibility"

TheChaplain 3y ago

Spending a lot more time with my aging father, I see a certain joy and pride in him whenever we are doing things together, a feeling that I will myself never know. Instead I chose career, travel and education early in life, and while I do not regret it.. Later in life I noticed that for me such accomplishments feel worth about 5 minutes of cold talk in social events, even more among those who warmly talk about their grandchildren and even great grandchildren. Each of us have a limited time here, and we make choices that (hopefully) makes it worthwhile. Though perhaps, the choices I made left a feeling of emptiness..

xyzelement 3y ago
// while I do not regret it... feel worth about 5 minutes of cold talk... the choices I made left a feeling of emptiness.. I appreciate your candor and vulnerability with us here. But I can't help but read a good amount of regret in your post, in line with the article. As middle aged / older guys, there's significance to the message we send out. Perhaps someone reading your post will be inspired to pause and re evaluate their choice based on what you wrote. Thank yku.

bitsandbooks 3y ago

We ought to be converting these people into adoptive or foster parents.

malfist 3y ago
Yeah, I agree. There's an easy solution for regret of not having kids, adoption. It'll be better for you and for the kid(s). There's no reason this childless person can't change his situation if he's capable of caring for a kid.
- Steltek 3y ago
  This person is 72 years old. Maybe people don't understand what parents mean by "kids take a lot of work". Take everything you do right now and double it. Maybe triple it, because it's harder when they don't know what they're doing at all and you need to teach as you go. All your household chores: double. Work: double (homework). Getting friggin' dressed in the morning: double. Wake up extra early too because school starts at 7:30 and they can't eat their own breakfast in a timely fashion, let alone make it. That's not to mention that at 72 years old, there's a good chance he's going to keel over and leave that child fatherless pretty soon. Super traumatically too because guess who's going to find his body after he passed in his sleep?
  - malfist 3y ago
    This person in the article might be too old to adopt, but that doesn't apply to everyone in his boat. It also doesn't stop him from fostering.
tr888 3y ago
I somewhat agree, but 2 things: - Adoption/fostering isn't actually a guarantee for all people. It's a challenging process that may or may not be successful. - Just some gentle advice: mentioning "just adopt" to people suffering infertility is considered a faux-pas. It's best to avoid it.
anon291 3y ago

gpgn 3y ago

A relevant documentary, although slightly more about women and the world in general, is Birthgap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6s8QlIGanA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6s8QlIGanA, where they talk about "unplanned childlessness"

dghughes 3y ago

I'm in the same boat. Just a shy kid who never got over it. My grandfather died when I was three and I think it hit Dad hard. I was determined to find a woman and have children even if it meant doing so if not married. My Catholic parents were very against that it was unspoken but very obvious in their attitude. My Dad died a few years ago so my plan fell apart. Now Mom is old so she is not long for this world either. But even so I am early 50s so unless I win a lot of money, get famous fast, find a foreign wife (who won't murder me), or somehow father a child I'm SOL. It is depressing especially seeing in later life how family support is great to have. When I'm old I'll have nobody. And I mean just regular stuff having someone to drive you to appointments, help with home repairs, finances. There are a lot of scammers and bad people ready to pounce on elderly. We need old time forced dances where a lot of us shy folks are forced to interact.

Gigachad 3y ago
Having kids is no guarantee of getting help when you are old. Quite a few people I know refuse to have any contact with their parents.

hackeraccount 3y ago

I'd regret not getting married a lot more then not having kids.

Dudester230602 3y ago
If one likes signing unfavourable contracts with the government, there are non-matrimonial ones available I am sure?

Scubabear68 3y ago

I’m can say that, for our family at least, adoption was an alternate route. There are many, many children here in the US who’s parents have died or who whose parents have had their parental rights terminated for cause. 8 years ago we adopted a 3 year old and a 7 year old, and the lack of biological link barely matters (it only comes up due to racial differences). If you are a basically decent human and can support yourself and a child, give a look at adoption rather than having this regret for your lifetime.

wkat4242 3y ago

I'm surprised there's so many men that genuinely want kids. I've never had that desire, I know it's more commonplace in women. Most of my friends who have them were basically doing it for the wife even though they loved their kids when they appeared on the scene. But it was not something they would have chosen. But anyway good for them. I'm glad I never had any and I have no regrets.

xyzelement 3y ago
// doing it for the wife even though they loved their kids when they appeared on the scene Are you sure? People aren't stupid and then they marry a woman who wants kids and then agree to have kids with her, they are not doing it against their will. The fact that they are happy and love the kids once they arrive suggests they had room inside them for that happiness and love to begin with and they just allowed the wife to be the impetus to it.
drewcoo 3y ago
> I know it's more commonplace in women. There are plenty of women who are perfectly happy without kids, too. And that doesn't mean those men and women don't like kids or don't have kids in their lives. It's nice to get some kid time. And it's nice to go home later and not have to deal with them. Or the inevitable ex spouses.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  > There are plenty of women who are perfectly happy without kids, too. I wish I'd find some :) For me it has generally been a breaking point in relations or at least a very contentious point. However at this point I'm so old that with a partner of the same age it's simply not really relevant anymore. Either they have never had them, have had them and they grew up, or they just can't get them anymore.

2-718-281-828 3y ago

> When that is not by choice, regret can grow into pain. This thinking is flawed. Here's the solution and your road to happiness. Foster the ability to accept, be grateful and by that weaken tendencies to regret. Because _this_ is the only difference between people who regret when they are old (or pretty much any other time in their life) and those who don't. That's all. What you practice is what you become. You practice regretting and you don't have children => you'll regret that. You practice regretting and you do have children => you'll either regret that or something else. It's that simple. > he tries to stay indoors and ignore the family celebrations outside. there you have it - that's the attitude which has you likely end up lonely. he just keeps up the old pattern without reflecting. why not participate in one way or another. he doesn't have a son or daughter but he can have positive interactions. instead - he stays indoors to protect himself emotionally. > So many ambushes and triggers for my anguish. it's ambushes and triggers. looking for reasons of your pain outside of yourself is human and normal - we all do it - but it's often not going to make positive difference. ... won't bother reading on - this article is lacking any deeper reflection and almost reads like a government ordered attempt to disseminate FUD in men to manipulate the birth rate positively.

WarOnPrivacy 3y ago

> 25% of men over 42 do not have children – 5% more than women of the same age group In another generation, I believe this number will jump. That's mostly because of current economics. Two people making the most commonly earned wages can not afford housing (then add sharply increased costs of insurances and transportation). Stated otherwise, most couples can't afford to be an independent couple.

Tangurena2 3y ago

I wanted to get married and have kids. Being rather effeminate, I don't attract the women who do want to have kids. I was about 40 when I finally realized that if she said she didn't want kids, she really meant it and it was not negotiable. I swore a vow: no more childless relationships. Being in no relationship is far better than being in the wrong relationship. When I tried to adopt, Florida's child welfare agency decided - after doing a background check - decided to declare me "legally gay" since I was heavily involved in LGBT rights (all my friends were lesbians and I was mad at how badly they were treated). And back then, it was illegal in FL for gays/lesbians to adopt. Not that I was/am one.

_V_ 3y ago
Wtf? O.O How can you be declared "legally gay"? That sounds like something from a dystopian novel...
- Tangurena2 3y ago
  The attitude was that "no hetero would do that sort of thing." A similar attitude for race relations would be to use the "one drop rule" [0] against white-looking [1] supporters of civil rights for blacks (back in the 1950s & 1960s), that since no white would do that, I must have some black blood in my ancestry and therefore I'd be legally black. > In the United States, the “one-drop rule” — also known as hypodescent — dates to a 1662 Virginia law on the treatment of mixed-race individuals. The legal notion of hypodescent has been upheld as recently as 1985, when a Louisiana court ruled that a woman with a black great-great-great-great-grandmother could not identify herself as “white” on her passport. [2] > Not only does the one-drop rule apply to no other group than American blacks, but apparently the rule is unique in that it is found only in the United States and not in any other nation in the world. In fact, definitions of who is black vary quite sharply from country to country, and for this reason people in other countries often express consternation about our definition. > The phenomenon known as "passing as white" is difficult to explain in other countries or to foreign students. [3] This happened back in the 1990s. In 2007, Florida repealed the ban on homosexuals adopting, but I had left the state years before. 0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_(racial_identity) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_(racial_identity) 2 - https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2010/12/one-drop-rule-persists/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2010/12/one-drop-rule... 3 - https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/mixed/onedrop.html https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/mix...

Tade0 3y ago

I was born around a decade before my country's fertility rate went below replacement and the social change this shift brought is staggering. As a child I assumed most of my peers would go the usual route, so eventually start a family. Being in my mid 30s now I'm the only one out of three siblings who is a parent and in my immediate social circle there are just two others - that's three out of at least twelve people. The rest are either single, divorced or just childless, with no plan for starting a family in the foreseeable future(or ever) with maybe one exception, but if you asked me two years ago about that person's prospects I would have to say the were looking bleak. I don't go around asking people why aren't they having children, but those who did tell me cite either finances or unwillingness to give up their current lives - sometimes both.

bell-cot 3y ago

Another thought... Over {mumble} decades, I've been stereotyped as good uncle / father / grandfather / etc. material pretty often, based on how I reacted to or interacted with various kids. I've also seen quite a few men react less well to young children, and had less-favorable stereotypes quickly applied to them. I wonder how the men featured in the article were stereotyped when younger. Back when couples mostly got together in larger/richer social contexts (churches, tighter-knit communities, etc.) - having the young women hearing unflattering whispers (about a young man's parenting aptitude) could certainly dim his prospects for having children.

neilv 3y ago

I love teaching/interacting with the occasional good-natured, learning-sponge kids, but the stars haven't yet aligned to have kids of my own. Now that I'm 50-ish, although I'm energetic and not yet noticeably graying, when I think about kids of my own, I have to consider: * A dear friend adored her father, and when he died while she was in college, she was devastated. I could nurture a kid to be resilient in that possibility, but I don't like the idea of setting them up for that possibility to be not-unlikely. * I'd want the other parent to be a life partner, and that probably means in a close age bracket. So biological clocks are a factor, at least for building from scratch. Or, if partner is significantly younger, that means we'd have to consider how much time we could have before the woman likely outlives the man, and where that would leave her. That said, I haven't written off the idea of a family, and I'm paying every month to keep a life insurance policy, just in case there's someday a family who might need it.

em-bee 3y ago
depending on what culture you are from you may have a challenge to find someone your age who still wants to have kids (even adopted ones)

slothtrop 3y ago

There is an analogous grief for those dealing with a broken adoption system. I know someone who cared for a newborn for 9 months, before it was forcibly taken away at the request of the biological grandparents. This is in Canada, so you can guess why. They loved and cared for it as any parent would.

psychlops 3y ago

An article concerned about men? The world is certainly changing.

sershe 3y ago

One thing that definitely skews the reporting of this is that it's socially acceptable to admit you regret not having kids, but it's absolutely not socially acceptable to admit you regret having kids.

xyzelement 3y ago
Do you expect that this skew would meaningfully alter the conclusion? That there are many men on their deathbed who wish they had more time for brunch in their life vs the hard work of parenting?
- ryanwaggoner 3y ago
  Do you think what people long for on their deathbed should dictate their life decisions, as opposed to how they felt and viewed their life for the thousands of days that came before?
  - xyzelement 3y ago
    The deathbed is shorthand for retrospecting on your life from the perspective of maximum information and no time left to alter course. It's proxy for the question of whether you've lived a life that deeply resonated with your values, instincts, desire for meaning, etc. Or did you just pass time. To answer your literal question -imagine someone dying from lung cancer in their 40s. If they regret smoking and wish they never started, should that have, in retrospect, dictate their life decisions? Or do the "thousands of days" they happily smoked matter more? I find that most success in life comes from this ability to mentally associate with your ultimate self and do things today that will make that person most satisfied. Which happens to also be way more satisfying in the moment.
- sershe 3y ago
  Yeah, as a matter of fact I do. Even the snideness of this comment is revealing for how extreme the bias is :) The spectrum goes from, I've talked to quite a few people who only talk about negatives of having kids as long as they are talking about anything specific (health, hobbies, friends, work, even their spouse), but as soon as they start talking in abstract they reiterate how having kids / their kid is great. Usually 5 minutes after an endless stream of complaining. It's either Stokholm syndrome or social desirability bias... To, I know / knew lots of people who are either terrible to their children or whose parents were reportedly terrible to them, anywhere from emotional distance and clearly not wanting them around, to outright physical abuse or extremely controlling behavior, or basically abandoning them to their own devices. I fully expect people like that to regret having kids, but I've never heard or read anyone admit it. I think having kids is a boring chore that (pretty much by definition) nearly anyone can learn to do. Sure, it might be necessary, but that combination makes it about as special, fulfilling and exciting as farming rice. Most would rather have brunch, so perhaps we should pay people to do it. Except that with kids, you cannot admit that you'd rather have done something else... Of course comparing to "brunch" is done in the same snide spirit, but even disregarding pastimes that are actually fulfilling, I'd also much rather have more brunch :)