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Sorry for my ignorance, but any idea when we can see Desktop Processors powered by RISC-V architecture? It would be breath of fresh air to see new architectures

Sorry for my ignorance, but any idea when we can see Desktop Processors powered by RISC-V architecture? It would be breath of fresh air to see new architectures power the desktops.

AlotOfReading 3y ago
You can buy a RISCV SBC and run a Linux desktop on it today. It's just not competitive with x86 in performance or software support. The closest you'll get to that outside arm or x86 is Talos II stuff, which runs PowerNV.
marcodiego 3y ago
I remember this one: https://abopen.com/news/building-a-risc-v-pc/ https://abopen.com/news/building-a-risc-v-pc/ . Since it is from 2019, it is likely there have been some advancements. I also hope for a riscv desktop; it could even be ryf certifiable.
crote 3y ago
The HiFive Pro P550 should be available this summer, for a pretty desktop-like experience. Don't expect RISV-V to directly compete with Intel/AMD on the high end for at least another decade, though.
- snvzz 3y ago
  >Don't expect RISV-V to directly compete with Intel/AMD on the high end for at least another decade Actually 2024. SiFive P870, Tenstorrent Ascalon, SOPHON SG2044, Ventana Veyron, and more.
  - rwmj 3y ago
    Rivos too ...
    - snvzz 3y ago
      Rivos hasn't announced anything. There's several other companies we know are working on processors but haven't announced a thing.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - brucehoult 3y ago
    2023-2024 for the cores. Add 3-4 years for cores to make their way into CHEAP mass-production hardware. People who describe this as "not in the near future" are probably still in school. Not a decade. For sure not "at least a decade".
    - wwtrv 3y ago
      > 2023-2024 for the cores. If your benchmark is x86 from ~2016-2018 then maybe. But the competition is moving forward as well (and Intel, AMD and ARM have a lot more money to invest into R&D)
      - snvzz 3y ago
        >and Intel, AMD and ARM have a lot more money to invest into R&D Yet their ISAs are much more complex and thus they actually need to invest that much more money.
        wwtrv 3y ago
        > more complex and thus they actually I could make a similarly unsubstantiated claim that their chips are much faster than RISC-V ones because of that (of course they are unambiguously faster it's just that this is not the only reason). And anyway if RISC-V is to become competitive it will have to become much more complex as well..
        brucehoult 3y ago
        You are incorrect. Debate won't prove it, but it's true and time will tell -- and not very much time, at that.
        wwtrv 3y ago
        > You are incorrect. > Debate won't prove it, I find this (almost) religious style fanaticism about something as mundane as an instruction set quite fascinating.
  - crote 3y ago
    If we look at the single benchmark available directly comparing RISC-V to x86, the SG2042 is about comparable to a Sandy Bridge CPU from 2012[0]. That's roughly 11 generations behind. There is definitely going to be a market for RISC-V, but in all likelihood that primarily means eating ARM's lunch and highly specialized workloads. To directly compete with AMD/Intel they are going to have to be within the same ballpark of performance and cost about the same and consume about the same amount of power. There is simply no way in hell that is going to happen in 2024, not with the amount of catchup they have to do. Even Tenstorrent's own Jim Keller expects their Ascalon to be behind Zen 5 in raw performance / GHz, and Ventana's slides show it barely beating 2021 CPUs[1] which are in turn already massively outperformed by current-gen ones[2]. I fully expect a few RISC-V products to be only a generation or 2/3 behind within a couple of years, but that is simply not enough to be a direct competitor. [0]: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2309.00381.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/2309.00381.pdf [1]: https://www.servethehome.com/ventana-veyron-v1-risc-v-data-center-processor-hot-chips-2023/ https://www.servethehome.com/ventana-veyron-v1-risc-v-data-c... [2]: https://www.servethehome.com/amd-epyc-bergamo-epyc-9754-cloud-native-sp5/2/ https://www.servethehome.com/amd-epyc-bergamo-epyc-9754-clou...
    - snvzz 3y ago
      I wouldn't label the Chinese SG2042 as representative of RISC-V as a whole. It is the XuanTie C910 open source core. It has been available for many years. I have no reason to question Jim Keller nor Wei-han Lien ability to deliver, with their proven track record of delivering. Tenstorrent presentation late last year talked chiplet availability in 2024. That's the best estimate we can work with, for Tenstorrent specifically. There's multiple other companies and cores we're aware of, and then the others we don't even know of. e.g. Rivos has a strong team that's been silently cooking something for a very long time now. It could emerge at any time.
- therealcamino 3y ago
  If we're being generous/technically correct (which of course is the best kind of correct), on September 3rd they've got about two and a half weeks left to meet "this summer". Informally, most people would expect that to mean June/July/August. I haven't seen any news on since January, and no concrete shipping date. I signed up on the announcement email list and haven't seen anything there either (or at least I think I signed up; I don't even see an acknowledgement email.) That's not really a criticism or doomsaying about Intel or SiFive from me -- I'm really interested to see what they have -- but they could do with a better communication strategy.
rwmj 3y ago
Sophgo sells some: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/milk-v-offers-a-trio-of-risc-v-raspberry-pi-alternatives https://www.tomshardware.com/news/milk-v-offers-a-trio-of-ri...
- blacklion 3y ago
  I'm in market to replace platform for my home-built NAS. I'm looking at EPYCs 7001 or 7002 with SuperMicro platform (second hand) as primary target. When I seen this Milk-V Pioneer platform I was very enthusiastic: looks like what I need (minus IPMI, but I can omit this requirement) - one slot for 10G network, one slot for HBA, M.2 slots for caches, I can select RAM (in opposite to most of these platforms, where RAM is soledrid-on), plus ability to experiment with new platform. Looks perfect. But... $1499?! Plus VAT to import to Europe?! Sorry. I pass :-( Why does it cost SO MUCH!?
  - rwmj 3y ago
    Because it's a development platform, produced in small quantities. It also has 64 cores which I guess an EPYC doesn't have at that kind of price.
    - blacklion 3y ago
      On one hand I agree with you. It is apples-to-oranges to compare new development platform and old, second-hand, production one. On other hand... There is NO comparable production RISC-V platforms. You say "It has 64 cores" - well, it is good argument when there is choice. But there is no choice on RISC-V side, there is no such platform with 32 or 8 or any other number of cores. So, I compare what I can buy with "RISC-V" badge and what I can buy with "amd64" badge. When I choose EPYC I could choose from 8 cores up to 64 cores, according to my wallet and needs. For 1000 euro I could have good, proven MoBo which offers more than this "development platform" (i.e. IPMI and VGA exit, which means I don't need any videocard to occupy so precious PCIe slot - and I think, it is good idea for DEVELOPMENT platform to have full remote control & access, IPMI or some other) and 8 core/16 threads first generation EPYC (which will be faster core-to-core, I'm sure), NEW. If I agree to buy second-hand hardware it will be about 550 euros (same mobo, same CPU). For 1400 euros I will get NEW 16 cores / 32 thread EPYC + mobo combo, or about 700 euros second-hand. Yes, I know, development vs. production, but this situation stays the same for years now. BTW, situation is the same with ARM platforms too - there is no way to buy "big desktop/small-server class" ARMv8 board with good set of expansion slot.
loudmax 3y ago
You can get RISC-V based single board computers today. I think the meaningful question is when we'll see RISC-V CPUs that are performance competitive with x86 or ARM CPUs. In that case, probably not in the near future, at least not for several years at least. x86 and Arm CPUs have decades of optimization behind them. That's the CPU designs themselves, and also compilers, etc. RISC-V has a lot of catching up to do, and Arm and x86 aren't static targets. That isn't to say that RISC-V won't catch up. There's real momentum behind RISC-V. Also, the development of software built using machine learning introduces wildcards and the possibility of disruption. So in the medium to long term (end of the decade, maybe?) we might see interesting cell phones or laptops that are useful for more than Hacker News tinkerers. I'm looking forward to them.
- intrasight 3y ago
  We need to to keep a competitive landscape. >when we'll see RISC-V CPUs that are performance competitive As you said, Arm and x86 aren't static targets. So while they'll catch up to where Arm is today, Arm will be somewhere further ahead at that point. Especially as implemented by Apple silicon. My concern remains that Apple will have to investment strength to always be a few years in the front. Their lead could in fact increase. And that's just CPU.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rollcat 3y ago
https://drewdevault.com/2022/01/15/2022-01-15-The-RISC-V-experience.html https://drewdevault.com/2022/01/15/2022-01-15-The-RISC-V-exp...
tremon 3y ago
https://www.crowdsupply.com/milkv/milk-v-pioneer https://www.crowdsupply.com/milkv/milk-v-pioneer Also pioneer pricing, as can be expected. But it has uATX form factor, ddr4, pcie3, usb3, sata3 connectivity. You could certainly build a nice desktop with it.

Sorry for my ignorance, but any idea when we can see Desktop Processors powered by RISC-V architecture? It would be breath of fresh air to see new architectures power the desktops.

AlotOfReading 3y ago

You can buy a RISCV SBC and run a Linux desktop on it today. It's just not competitive with x86 in performance or software support. The closest you'll get to that outside arm or x86 is Talos II stuff, which runs PowerNV.

marcodiego 3y ago

I remember this one: https://abopen.com/news/building-a-risc-v-pc/ https://abopen.com/news/building-a-risc-v-pc/ . Since it is from 2019, it is likely there have been some advancements. I also hope for a riscv desktop; it could even be ryf certifiable.

crote 3y ago

The HiFive Pro P550 should be available this summer, for a pretty desktop-like experience. Don't expect RISV-V to directly compete with Intel/AMD on the high end for at least another decade, though.

snvzz 3y ago
>Don't expect RISV-V to directly compete with Intel/AMD on the high end for at least another decade Actually 2024. SiFive P870, Tenstorrent Ascalon, SOPHON SG2044, Ventana Veyron, and more.
- rwmj 3y ago
  Rivos too ...
  - snvzz 3y ago
    Rivos hasn't announced anything. There's several other companies we know are working on processors but haven't announced a thing.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- brucehoult 3y ago
  2023-2024 for the cores. Add 3-4 years for cores to make their way into CHEAP mass-production hardware. People who describe this as "not in the near future" are probably still in school. Not a decade. For sure not "at least a decade".
  - wwtrv 3y ago
    > 2023-2024 for the cores. If your benchmark is x86 from ~2016-2018 then maybe. But the competition is moving forward as well (and Intel, AMD and ARM have a lot more money to invest into R&D)
    - snvzz 3y ago
      >and Intel, AMD and ARM have a lot more money to invest into R&D Yet their ISAs are much more complex and thus they actually need to invest that much more money.
      - wwtrv 3y ago
        > more complex and thus they actually I could make a similarly unsubstantiated claim that their chips are much faster than RISC-V ones because of that (of course they are unambiguously faster it's just that this is not the only reason). And anyway if RISC-V is to become competitive it will have to become much more complex as well..
        brucehoult 3y ago
        You are incorrect. Debate won't prove it, but it's true and time will tell -- and not very much time, at that.
        wwtrv 3y ago
        > You are incorrect. > Debate won't prove it, I find this (almost) religious style fanaticism about something as mundane as an instruction set quite fascinating.
- crote 3y ago
  If we look at the single benchmark available directly comparing RISC-V to x86, the SG2042 is about comparable to a Sandy Bridge CPU from 2012[0]. That's roughly 11 generations behind. There is definitely going to be a market for RISC-V, but in all likelihood that primarily means eating ARM's lunch and highly specialized workloads. To directly compete with AMD/Intel they are going to have to be within the same ballpark of performance and cost about the same and consume about the same amount of power. There is simply no way in hell that is going to happen in 2024, not with the amount of catchup they have to do. Even Tenstorrent's own Jim Keller expects their Ascalon to be behind Zen 5 in raw performance / GHz, and Ventana's slides show it barely beating 2021 CPUs[1] which are in turn already massively outperformed by current-gen ones[2]. I fully expect a few RISC-V products to be only a generation or 2/3 behind within a couple of years, but that is simply not enough to be a direct competitor. [0]: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2309.00381.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/2309.00381.pdf [1]: https://www.servethehome.com/ventana-veyron-v1-risc-v-data-center-processor-hot-chips-2023/ https://www.servethehome.com/ventana-veyron-v1-risc-v-data-c... [2]: https://www.servethehome.com/amd-epyc-bergamo-epyc-9754-cloud-native-sp5/2/ https://www.servethehome.com/amd-epyc-bergamo-epyc-9754-clou...
  - snvzz 3y ago
    I wouldn't label the Chinese SG2042 as representative of RISC-V as a whole. It is the XuanTie C910 open source core. It has been available for many years. I have no reason to question Jim Keller nor Wei-han Lien ability to deliver, with their proven track record of delivering. Tenstorrent presentation late last year talked chiplet availability in 2024. That's the best estimate we can work with, for Tenstorrent specifically. There's multiple other companies and cores we're aware of, and then the others we don't even know of. e.g. Rivos has a strong team that's been silently cooking something for a very long time now. It could emerge at any time.
therealcamino 3y ago
If we're being generous/technically correct (which of course is the best kind of correct), on September 3rd they've got about two and a half weeks left to meet "this summer". Informally, most people would expect that to mean June/July/August. I haven't seen any news on since January, and no concrete shipping date. I signed up on the announcement email list and haven't seen anything there either (or at least I think I signed up; I don't even see an acknowledgement email.) That's not really a criticism or doomsaying about Intel or SiFive from me -- I'm really interested to see what they have -- but they could do with a better communication strategy.

rwmj 3y ago

Sophgo sells some: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/milk-v-offers-a-trio-of-risc-v-raspberry-pi-alternatives https://www.tomshardware.com/news/milk-v-offers-a-trio-of-ri...

blacklion 3y ago
I'm in market to replace platform for my home-built NAS. I'm looking at EPYCs 7001 or 7002 with SuperMicro platform (second hand) as primary target. When I seen this Milk-V Pioneer platform I was very enthusiastic: looks like what I need (minus IPMI, but I can omit this requirement) - one slot for 10G network, one slot for HBA, M.2 slots for caches, I can select RAM (in opposite to most of these platforms, where RAM is soledrid-on), plus ability to experiment with new platform. Looks perfect. But... $1499?! Plus VAT to import to Europe?! Sorry. I pass :-( Why does it cost SO MUCH!?
- rwmj 3y ago
  Because it's a development platform, produced in small quantities. It also has 64 cores which I guess an EPYC doesn't have at that kind of price.
  - blacklion 3y ago
    On one hand I agree with you. It is apples-to-oranges to compare new development platform and old, second-hand, production one. On other hand... There is NO comparable production RISC-V platforms. You say "It has 64 cores" - well, it is good argument when there is choice. But there is no choice on RISC-V side, there is no such platform with 32 or 8 or any other number of cores. So, I compare what I can buy with "RISC-V" badge and what I can buy with "amd64" badge. When I choose EPYC I could choose from 8 cores up to 64 cores, according to my wallet and needs. For 1000 euro I could have good, proven MoBo which offers more than this "development platform" (i.e. IPMI and VGA exit, which means I don't need any videocard to occupy so precious PCIe slot - and I think, it is good idea for DEVELOPMENT platform to have full remote control & access, IPMI or some other) and 8 core/16 threads first generation EPYC (which will be faster core-to-core, I'm sure), NEW. If I agree to buy second-hand hardware it will be about 550 euros (same mobo, same CPU). For 1400 euros I will get NEW 16 cores / 32 thread EPYC + mobo combo, or about 700 euros second-hand. Yes, I know, development vs. production, but this situation stays the same for years now. BTW, situation is the same with ARM platforms too - there is no way to buy "big desktop/small-server class" ARMv8 board with good set of expansion slot.

loudmax 3y ago

You can get RISC-V based single board computers today. I think the meaningful question is when we'll see RISC-V CPUs that are performance competitive with x86 or ARM CPUs. In that case, probably not in the near future, at least not for several years at least. x86 and Arm CPUs have decades of optimization behind them. That's the CPU designs themselves, and also compilers, etc. RISC-V has a lot of catching up to do, and Arm and x86 aren't static targets. That isn't to say that RISC-V won't catch up. There's real momentum behind RISC-V. Also, the development of software built using machine learning introduces wildcards and the possibility of disruption. So in the medium to long term (end of the decade, maybe?) we might see interesting cell phones or laptops that are useful for more than Hacker News tinkerers. I'm looking forward to them.

intrasight 3y ago
We need to to keep a competitive landscape. >when we'll see RISC-V CPUs that are performance competitive As you said, Arm and x86 aren't static targets. So while they'll catch up to where Arm is today, Arm will be somewhere further ahead at that point. Especially as implemented by Apple silicon. My concern remains that Apple will have to investment strength to always be a few years in the front. Their lead could in fact increase. And that's just CPU.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

rollcat 3y ago

https://drewdevault.com/2022/01/15/2022-01-15-The-RISC-V-experience.html https://drewdevault.com/2022/01/15/2022-01-15-The-RISC-V-exp...

tremon 3y ago

https://www.crowdsupply.com/milkv/milk-v-pioneer https://www.crowdsupply.com/milkv/milk-v-pioneer Also pioneer pricing, as can be expected. But it has uATX form factor, ddr4, pcie3, usb3, sata3 connectivity. You could certainly build a nice desktop with it.