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Researchers have found that micro-spikes etched into titanium rupture microbes
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- b800h 3y agoWhat else do they rip apart?
- LinuxBender 3y ago[flagged]
- refulgentis 3y ago#1 ? #2 It's a surgical implant, why would they remove it?
- noodlesUK 3y agoI’m no expert in this field, so my question might be completely nonsensical. If this surface treatment is physically destructive to bacteria, is it also damaging to the human cells it is trying to sit next to after implantation?
- fit2rule 3y ago[dead]
- simbolit 3y agoI am wondering the same. The spikes on the dragonfly wings are on the outside, this is (at least in his article) promoted as being used for implants. One of the main qualities of implant materials is low bio-reactivity. I don't know if this fits the proper definition, but at least loosely speaking, tearing cells apart sounds like quite a bit of bio-reactivity. I am especially wondering because implants are always encapsulated by fibrous tissue (similar to scars), in order to protect the body from the "foreign object".
- simbolit 3y agotokai above says human cells are orders of magnitude larger than the cell in question. So that might be the answer.
- helpfulContrib 3y agoThis material would be most usefully applied in a hospital environment, where extremophiles are capable of adapting to the hostility they normally encounter, and is rather a leap beyond the existing strategies for containment. I don't think it has direct application to the human biome; more as a protective measure to stop the superbugs.
- tokai 3y agoAll types of human cells are much larger than Candida, up to several orders of magnitude. If the effect that destroys the cell is indeed some kind of stretching, it would make sense if the titanium surface doesn't have an effect on humans cells.
- formvoltron 3y agounless they tear through the walls of our cells. nanoplastics have been found inside human cells. this stuff is pretty scary to be creating. Stick to biochemistry for dealing with biology.
- chasil 3y agoThe article explains that dragonfly wings have naturally developed this kind of destructive surface for killing various types of bacteria.
- Turing_Machine 3y agoHuman (and other animal) cells do not have cell walls.
- etrautmann 3y agoWhat?
- Turing_Machine 3y agoAnimal cells do not have cell walls, but rather flexible cell membranes. Other living creatures generally do have rigid cell walls (sometimes with a flexible membrane inside the wall, I believe). https://www.khanacademy.org/science/high-school-biology/hs-cells/hs-plant-vs-animal-cells/a/hs-plant-vs-animal-cells-review https://www.khanacademy.org/science/high-school-biology/hs-c... "Animal cells simply have a cell membrane, but no cell wall." A web search will turn up many other citations for this.
- kurthr 3y ago
- Turing_Machine 3y agoI'm not an expert, either, but I believe that animal cells are different from most other living things (plants, fungi and fungus-like/bacteria and bacteria-like organisms) in that they do not have cell walls, just a flexible, self-healing membrane. Organisms with cell walls often have internal pressure, which makes any punctures much more serious than for animal cells. Perhaps something like that is in play. I do know that a common mechanism of action for many common antibiotics is interfering with the formation of cell walls. That's what lets them be effective against bacteria without causing (much) harm to the surrounding animal cells.
- hnbear 3y agoRepeat? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37319562 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37319562
- beeforpork 3y agoHow and to what would the modified titanium be applied? Could it be a coating for implants? Or a cleaning agent for tools and instruments? Or a desinfectant on skin or even wounds?
- simbolit 3y agoIf you read the article, it initially mentions implants, then the article ends with the following quote: "This new surface modification technique could have potential applications in medical devices but could also be easily tweaked for dental applications or for other materials like stainless steel benches used in food preparation and agriculture"
- oniony 3y agoSurely any surface with this feature would get covered in a layer of grime and become ineffective within days.
- simbolit 3y ago"Grime" is only a thing in our medium-scale world. In the micro-world, there is no grime. Most (tiny tiny) things people consider to be grime are far too big to even come into consideration here.
- vladvasiliu 3y agoSure, but wouldn't those larger particles cover the spikes, by laying on top of them? So if the whole surface is covered in grime, wouldn't the grime become the outer layer, so negating the benefits of whatever happens to be under them? Sure, whatever bacteria gets to reach the spikes would be dead, but I'd expect "enough" bacteria to be able to stay on top of the grime.
- simbolit 3y agoI am really not an expert in the micro-world, but from the times I have worked with microscopy, i know a lot of materials (and surely such a heterogenous material as "grime") have more holes than swiss cheese. So, yes, of course, some particles can cover some spikes, but "covered in a layer of grime" (which implies, well, coverage) doesn't seem likely to me.
- vladvasiliu 3y agoI seem to remember some "science" program on TV a while ago talking about how the lotus leaf had some specific texture on which liquids wouldn't adhere. Would you think this is similar, in that whatever "grime" would fall on the spiked surface wouldn't adhere and just fall off?
- simbolit 3y ago
- Pxtl 3y agoRelevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1217/ https://xkcd.com/1217/
- xvilka 3y agoRip and tear!
- giarc 3y agoI kind of work in this field and this isn't necessarily a new idea (micro structures killing bacteria). I remember being pitched on a tech called Sharklet that was proposed for hospital curtains. This was likely 10-13 years ago and it was a "nano-structure" killing mechanism.
- PoignardAzur 3y agoYeah, I definitely remember hearing about a similar concept for a microbe-killing surface about 15 years ago.
- Fomite 3y agoI saw a "microbial spears" product at IDWeek years ago. IIRC, Sharklet was more about biofilm formation disruption, rather than killing.
- giarc 3y agoWhich is ironic as I don't suspect curtains would really form biofilms, but maybe it was applied to a different material. I can't quite recall. I think applying these techniques to implants is likely viable, but other materials within the hospital seem to never take off. Take for example copper coated door handles, faucets, are rests etc.
- Fomite 3y agoYeah, most of the surfaces I saw them talking about were essentially what you've mentioned - handles, tabletops, etc. I think one of the big problems here is that in this field (which happens to be the one I work in), showing effectiveness in an RCT is very hard for any single hospital due to the relatively small numbers, and the small effects you'd expect these products to have. I think the implant market is an interesting one to be going after.
- giarc 3y agoThat market is likely the only one where the economics makes sense. Very few hospitals are going to pay $XXX to put copper on the bed rails only to have the front line staff not wash their hands on entry. The implant market makes more sense since cost of adverse event is likely $25,000+ (readmission, surgical washout or reimplementation etc). Multiply that by 0.5-2% infection rate and you can see why a hospital would pay an extra $500+ per implant.
- tbalsam 3y agoIt's also likely got some sort of basis in the oligodynamic effect, as Titanium rips apart cell walls passively that way as well. How much each does each, I can't say. Works for a lot of other metals, like bismuth (you wonder how Pepto stops diarrhea? Oligodynamic effect, among other things), copper, silver (yes, they put this in some medical dressings and such for hospitals, it kills MRSA as do many oligodynamic metals). Usually does the vast majority of its self-sanitization within a few _hours_, not days, as I best understand it. It's an excellent and still-underappreciated effect. Use it in your everyday life, I know I go out of my way too and it's quite worth it! :3 :')))) < :') Nothing too new about this article. Titanium white is a good self-sanitizing pigment if you need it, though I'd recommend talking to the appropriate professional before doing anything funky with anything. Stay safe! <3 :')))) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligodynamic_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligodynamic_effect
- civilitty 3y agoAbout 5-10 years ago there used to be a bunch of tupperware products impregnated with silver nanoparticles which were supposed to slow the growth of mold, fungus and bacteria until they were shut down by the EPA as unregistered/untested pesticides.
- tbalsam 3y agoThat is very cool. I'm currently experimenting with dyeing my armpit hair with dyes containing oligodynamic metals to reduce the amount of noxiousness induced from long-haul (weeks-months) backpacking trips (it's what I do). Deodorant is just not worth the weight. Self-sanitizing body hair and clothes? Yes. I could do my head hair as well but I'd rather have that professionally dyed for sake of aesthetics. Dead bacteria under clothes do not seem to care about aesthetics. Already did it with my socks. They're all oddly colored, but no matter how many days in a row I've worn them to make them smell, a few-12 or so hours out of the shoe and the smell just...fades to a regular "human" smell (like if someone showered vigorously without soap. It's actually a rather neutral-pleasant smell). This is partially also because even after weeks without a shower or scrub in the river I still somehow retain my sense of smell of myself. It's... terrible. Would not wish it on anyone. Losing that sense of smell is an absolute gift, I say! :D :')))) So, in this and in a few other cases, having everything being self sanitizing is much more convenient. Plus, if it's strong enough, as the compounds I chose/currently use are non-toxic even if ingested directly in large quantities before dyeing, I can use my dry spare shirt as a self-sterilizing wound dressing if needed (just rinse w/clean water, or river water and leave it for a few hours if worried about exogenous compound contamination, but it is/should be fortunately quite sterile), or if my water filter breaks, I can simply clean an article of clothing thoroughly (soapless) in the water supply, then suspend it in whichever water vessel I'm putting contaminated water in for a few hours to sterilize it nearly completely. Won't remove petroleum derivatives or anything like that (unless the fabric adsorption really is that good), unfortunately, but bacteria/viruses/etc are one of the big kickers. You can see how oligodynamic materials open up a new world of safety, comfort, convenience, and light weight in the world of ultralight backpacking. Currently I'm working as well on building a carrying system that uses all of my day to day elements but does not involve a backpack. Test run alpha1 is today. Hurray! :')))) :3 <3 <3 <3 <3 :')))) [Final note: I'm not a doctor, this is not medical advice, I carry niacinamide for emergency treatment of infectious that do not respond to antibiotics. It can and will kill MRSA in many cases as well due to the fact that it causes the body to upregulate a huge variety of anti-viral, anti-bacterial, anti-parasitic, etc proteins, i.e. the body's own broad spectrum antibiotics. I encourage everyone to carry 5-6+ 500mg pills in their emergency kit and an adjunct, even if to slow down progression while out of civilization. I could go on about these topics for a long time, I'm an empirical researcher, darn it! It's how my brain seems to be. :3]
- evrimoztamur 3y agoAt a larger scale, diatomaceous earth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceous_earth)—which https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceous_earth)—which is just fossilized shells of a kind of micro-algae—is useful for pest control. It works essentially the same way, stick onto, dry, and even lacerate bugs. Cool concept, waiting to see applications!
- tbalsam 3y agoI'm terrified by the idea of breathing this in. Reminds me of asbestos snow.
- tbalsam 3y ago(especially as they've shown diatomaceous earth to be microscopic, razor-sharp fragments. Some people even eat this to try to kill parasites, eep! I'm not sure of the research here but my Spidey sense at least is going off the clock! D''''::::)
- plasma_beam 3y agoAlso used for many swimming pool filters. You literally coat the filter grids with straight DE powder.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y agoWhile there was full disclosure about flexible implants from a recent surgery, I had a rod inserted in my tibia in 2006 and they haven't told me its composition. I like to joke that it's Adamantium, or me pirate peg leg, yarr. But it's probably titanium. It definitely hasn't given me trouble at airport inspection points.
- exabrial 3y agoSeems like there might be an analog here to battery technology... we're trying to develop anode/cathodes with higher surface areas via nanostructures.
- pvaldes 3y agoSmart move. The main problem that I see is that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. This spikes are part of something that must adhere to our body, but they will shred also --our-- own cells. I assume that there is a risk of inner bleeding, accidental destruction of any white cells frolicking around (maybe triggering immune responses), increase of tissue destruction in the surgery, or even worse the plates (or the spikes) could get loose after a while ... But I'm not a surgeon. I could be wrong.
- Georgelemental 3y agoAnimal cells are multiple orders of magnitude larger than bacterial cells, and do not have the cell walls that bacteria do (only a lipid cell membrane).
- pvaldes 3y agoThis plates and metal bones are attached to the real bones. The attachment points must stand the weight of the body with minor bending. Must allow twists and the feet hitting the soil 1000 times while we run in the park. If a plate inside your hand gets loose there is a hell of pain. Eve worse they can start cutting the nerves of the fingers one by one really fast. I had see it and is not nice. Is imperative that they "fuse" into the bone ASAP and then stand any reasonable forces acting over the articulation. Polished surface implants are tested for decades and proven to be mostly reliable. This, not still. Has one pro and this is fantastic, but could have also serious cons, so caution is advised. Show me a layer of healthy animal cells happily covering such spikes, and we could discuss further from here.
- YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago>> “It’s like stretching a latex glove,” said Elena Ivanova, corresponding author of the study. “As it slowly stretches, the weakest point in the latex will become thinner and eventually tear.” Someone really has to make a collection of the truly unexpected similes that scientists often use to try and communicate their work in terms "a non-specialist would understand". "Like stretching a latex glove"? Perhaps there should be an award for the most far-fetched science popularising metaphor. ...latex glove...
- boxed 3y agoPreviously discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37319562 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37319562
- mrtesthah 3y agoAmmonia si-quat compounds already do this.
- bloopernova 3y agoVery apropos for me; I'm reading The Fall of Hyperion