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A friend is a sociologist from the Balkans who has several times carried out fieldwork among Balkan Roma families who move seasonally to Western Europe and, bei

A friend is a sociologist from the Balkans who has several times carried out fieldwork among Balkan Roma families who move seasonally to Western Europe and, being of Roma ancestry herself, has won interview subjects’ trust. She reports that her interviewees readily view stealing as a part of their culture; they themselves regard it and begging as the two pillars of their population’s economy and have a developed approach to dividing those tasks up within the community. So, no, this isn’t speculation. Again, the fallacy people make is assuming that any Roma is a criminal, when the Roma today are a largely sedentary population, and one deprived of effective public services. But some level of theft among groups maintaining a traveler mode of life is exactly what one would expect after centuries of documented interaction between travelers and sedentary populations (and not just in Europe and not just involving Roma).

hef19898 3y ago
Do you have a source to that? Because all statistics I know actually show no real problems around theft and other peoperty crimes. Not saying said crime doesn't exist, also not saying travellers aren't committing them (because of course every group has its criminals). All I dispute is that some crime is a reason to discriminate a whole grpup, further marginalize them, and making it easier for them see no problem in committing crimes as a way of striking back. Also, viewing something as part of a culture, and actually doing it are still two different things. Also, I'd love to see claims like thqt, when if backed by interviews, further being put into context by actual numbers, especially from a field sociologist. You know, the whole strong claim, strong evidence thing.
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  You can refer to the paragraph I added in an edit. I fully agree that any such crime is not a reason to marginalize a whole ethnic group. But you yourself acknowledge that criminals exist, and you spoke of addressing root causes for crime, so how do you address the root cause for those families I mentioned? I’m not linking to said friend’s research here lest I dox her and myself on a subject that seems contentious enough for some HN readers to possibly cause trouble for her.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Fair enough I guess, re doxxing. Crime exists, different crimes are committed by different groups. Saying those crimes are inherent, dor whatever reason, to certain groups is just a bad take. Those groups migjt be more prone to commit certain crimes due to circumstances, but than those circumstances need being further analyzed. And yes, property crimes, with an already frightingly low rate of successful police investigations, is easier for people being constantly on the move. One thing that is also true: marginalized, discrimintaed and sidelined groups are more likely to commit crimes. So, one reason would be to offer alternatives, and as a society accept them as they are. Doesn't mean zero crime will be committed, but then again crime is a general problem that will never ever go away ever.
anon2929 3y ago
There you go with your pesky facts that back up common experience.
- hef19898 3y ago
  No facts to see, other than some anecdotes. If those interviews are backed by proper context, analysis and statostics, sure. So far, all I see is an intwressting insigjt into a culture I don't know a lot of. Edit: You just created this account for what exactly?
the_gipsy 3y ago
Spanish gipsies have their own "law" (unwritten shared rules) and "judges" (patriarchs). They have/had many archaic "laws", and one cornerstone used to be that a gipsy cannot work for a gadjé (non-gipsy). This internal "law" plus poverty results in criminal activity above the average for that poverty bracket because the only legal and "legal" employment is basically self-employment. Of course you can throw your hands up and say that "crime is part of their culture", and find a basis to support racism. You can also spend resources on integration and education. Today, gipsies in Spain can work like gadjés without being shamed by fellow gipsies (or to the contrary even get praised for making a career), and all without losing their cultural identity.
- willcipriano 3y ago
  [flagged]

hef19898 3y ago

Do you have a source to that? Because all statistics I know actually show no real problems around theft and other peoperty crimes. Not saying said crime doesn't exist, also not saying travellers aren't committing them (because of course every group has its criminals). All I dispute is that some crime is a reason to discriminate a whole grpup, further marginalize them, and making it easier for them see no problem in committing crimes as a way of striking back. Also, viewing something as part of a culture, and actually doing it are still two different things. Also, I'd love to see claims like thqt, when if backed by interviews, further being put into context by actual numbers, especially from a field sociologist. You know, the whole strong claim, strong evidence thing.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
You can refer to the paragraph I added in an edit. I fully agree that any such crime is not a reason to marginalize a whole ethnic group. But you yourself acknowledge that criminals exist, and you spoke of addressing root causes for crime, so how do you address the root cause for those families I mentioned? I’m not linking to said friend’s research here lest I dox her and myself on a subject that seems contentious enough for some HN readers to possibly cause trouble for her.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Fair enough I guess, re doxxing. Crime exists, different crimes are committed by different groups. Saying those crimes are inherent, dor whatever reason, to certain groups is just a bad take. Those groups migjt be more prone to commit certain crimes due to circumstances, but than those circumstances need being further analyzed. And yes, property crimes, with an already frightingly low rate of successful police investigations, is easier for people being constantly on the move. One thing that is also true: marginalized, discrimintaed and sidelined groups are more likely to commit crimes. So, one reason would be to offer alternatives, and as a society accept them as they are. Doesn't mean zero crime will be committed, but then again crime is a general problem that will never ever go away ever.

anon2929 3y ago

There you go with your pesky facts that back up common experience.

hef19898 3y ago
No facts to see, other than some anecdotes. If those interviews are backed by proper context, analysis and statostics, sure. So far, all I see is an intwressting insigjt into a culture I don't know a lot of. Edit: You just created this account for what exactly?

the_gipsy 3y ago

Spanish gipsies have their own "law" (unwritten shared rules) and "judges" (patriarchs). They have/had many archaic "laws", and one cornerstone used to be that a gipsy cannot work for a gadjé (non-gipsy). This internal "law" plus poverty results in criminal activity above the average for that poverty bracket because the only legal and "legal" employment is basically self-employment. Of course you can throw your hands up and say that "crime is part of their culture", and find a basis to support racism. You can also spend resources on integration and education. Today, gipsies in Spain can work like gadjés without being shamed by fellow gipsies (or to the contrary even get praised for making a career), and all without losing their cultural identity.

willcipriano 3y ago
[flagged]