5 ms·

Which ownership rights do the sellers retain now that they didn’t previously? I’m not familiar with any ToS that permits a company to repossess your PC or parts

Which ownership rights do the sellers retain now that they didn’t previously? I’m not familiar with any ToS that permits a company to repossess your PC or parts of it. If you’re talking about manufacturers making their devices more difficult to repair or voiding warranties based on minor modifications, that doesn’t mean you can’t do what you want with the item. It just means you can’t force the company to fix or replace it free of charge when you do.

TeMPOraL 3y ago
It's not that the PCs come with more strings attached than they did before - it's that many people, especially younger generation, are so used to those strings controlling their lives through their mobile devices and everything being a service, that they don't realize the same isn't true with a regular PC. At least isn't yet.
perihelions 3y ago
They don't. I think the commenter was guessing by generalizing from software/subscription service ToS's, which are ubiquitous; plus the fusion of hardware/software in inseparable packages, like the iPhone hardware, which is a brick without an ongoing Apple subscription.
- aficionado87 3y ago
  > a brick without an ongoing Apple subscription This just isn’t true. You don’t have to give Apple another dime to use an iPhone perpetually. Any paid Apple subscriptions are optional for cloud or streaming services.
  - dismalpedigree 3y ago
    Agreed its optional. But Apple will do their best (worst?) to get you to use it. Defaults to the free 5g, resetting preferences after OS upgrades, nagging prompts, etc.
  - perihelions 3y ago
    It may be a free subscription, but it's still an ongoing, no-opt-out commercial software service relationship with Apple, Inc. That's why it has a Terms of Service [0] – which is effectively a ToS for the iPhone hardware itself, as there is no way to use it without Apple's OS. [0] https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/iOS16_iPadOS16.pdf https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/iOS16_iPadOS16.pdf (the iOS ToS) (And I think it's noteworthy how that ToS' language bounces freely between "hardware" and "software"; how it fluctuates between "software license agreement" and "by using your iPhone ("device"), you are agreeing to...". Apple hardware and software are fused together: there is no practical difference).
paulluuk 3y ago
The only example I can think of is beer bottles. I know it's not related to computer hardware, but I'm just trying to think of examples where you purchase a consumer item and it's still not legally yours. The reason why it remains property of the brewery, is so that they can re-use it when you recycle it. It might be something that's specific for my country, though.
- mpsprd 3y ago
  here in Canada with returnable bottles, you actually buy the bottle container with a cover, but if you return it they buy it back from you.
- schemathings 3y ago
  Germany?
ballenf 3y ago
> I’m not familiar with any ToS that permits a company to repossess your PC or parts of it. I would call iCloud locking an embodiment of this. It's probably an unpopular example because people seem to broadly like it, but it does demonstrate the principal that the seller retains full control of the hardware and can "repossess" the device. The original purchaser does not receive a master unlock code. Even if locking yourself out of your device is "your fault", it doesn't alter the fact that at that point only Apple retains control of the device. Same with bios locks and management engines on PCs. The idea that possession = ownership is gone. And we're almost all ok with that especially since it makes us a little safer and more "secure". At least until we can't trust Apple, Intel, etc. anymore. One could argue that the black market value for your locked phone compared to unlocked phone is a proxy for how much you actually own the phone.
- GeekyBear 3y ago
  > I would call iCloud locking an embodiment of this. Activation locks were required by law to deter armed theft. > A new report from Reuters found that iPhone theft dropped by 50 percent in London, 40 percent in San Francisco and 25 percent in New York. The drops represent theft activity as measured during the 12 months following Apple’s introduction of the remote locking feature in September 2013 as part of iOS 7. With iOS 8, Apple made its so-called said “kill switch” active by default, in accordance with California regulation, and that should help the rates of theft continue to trend downwards. https://techcrunch.com/2015/02/11/apples-activation-lock-leads-to-big-drops-in-smartphone-theft-worldwide/ https://techcrunch.com/2015/02/11/apples-activation-lock-lea...
  - yenwodyah 3y ago
    Well, it wouldn’t be the first time that a law with good intentions has prefaced a loss of freedom
    - jfengel 3y ago
      Laws pretty much always mean a loss of freedom, with the intent of promoting some other positive goal (often, some other freedom). That's why we make them. Balancing these goals is not easy, but we don't get to avoid it just because we want "freedom" as an abstraction. It's an important consideration but only one when you put a lot of people with conflicting goals together.
marcosdumay 3y ago
> I’m not familiar with any ToS that permits a company to repossess your PC or parts of it. Google just decreed that, starting 2 days ago, nobody may distribute software for my phone...

TeMPOraL 3y ago

It's not that the PCs come with more strings attached than they did before - it's that many people, especially younger generation, are so used to those strings controlling their lives through their mobile devices and everything being a service, that they don't realize the same isn't true with a regular PC. At least isn't yet.

perihelions 3y ago

They don't. I think the commenter was guessing by generalizing from software/subscription service ToS's, which are ubiquitous; plus the fusion of hardware/software in inseparable packages, like the iPhone hardware, which is a brick without an ongoing Apple subscription.

aficionado87 3y ago
> a brick without an ongoing Apple subscription This just isn’t true. You don’t have to give Apple another dime to use an iPhone perpetually. Any paid Apple subscriptions are optional for cloud or streaming services.
- dismalpedigree 3y ago
  Agreed its optional. But Apple will do their best (worst?) to get you to use it. Defaults to the free 5g, resetting preferences after OS upgrades, nagging prompts, etc.
- perihelions 3y ago
  It may be a free subscription, but it's still an ongoing, no-opt-out commercial software service relationship with Apple, Inc. That's why it has a Terms of Service [0] – which is effectively a ToS for the iPhone hardware itself, as there is no way to use it without Apple's OS. [0] https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/iOS16_iPadOS16.pdf https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/iOS16_iPadOS16.pdf (the iOS ToS) (And I think it's noteworthy how that ToS' language bounces freely between "hardware" and "software"; how it fluctuates between "software license agreement" and "by using your iPhone ("device"), you are agreeing to...". Apple hardware and software are fused together: there is no practical difference).

paulluuk 3y ago

The only example I can think of is beer bottles. I know it's not related to computer hardware, but I'm just trying to think of examples where you purchase a consumer item and it's still not legally yours. The reason why it remains property of the brewery, is so that they can re-use it when you recycle it. It might be something that's specific for my country, though.

mpsprd 3y ago
here in Canada with returnable bottles, you actually buy the bottle container with a cover, but if you return it they buy it back from you.
schemathings 3y ago
Germany?

ballenf 3y ago

> I’m not familiar with any ToS that permits a company to repossess your PC or parts of it. I would call iCloud locking an embodiment of this. It's probably an unpopular example because people seem to broadly like it, but it does demonstrate the principal that the seller retains full control of the hardware and can "repossess" the device. The original purchaser does not receive a master unlock code. Even if locking yourself out of your device is "your fault", it doesn't alter the fact that at that point only Apple retains control of the device. Same with bios locks and management engines on PCs. The idea that possession = ownership is gone. And we're almost all ok with that especially since it makes us a little safer and more "secure". At least until we can't trust Apple, Intel, etc. anymore. One could argue that the black market value for your locked phone compared to unlocked phone is a proxy for how much you actually own the phone.

GeekyBear 3y ago
> I would call iCloud locking an embodiment of this. Activation locks were required by law to deter armed theft. > A new report from Reuters found that iPhone theft dropped by 50 percent in London, 40 percent in San Francisco and 25 percent in New York. The drops represent theft activity as measured during the 12 months following Apple’s introduction of the remote locking feature in September 2013 as part of iOS 7. With iOS 8, Apple made its so-called said “kill switch” active by default, in accordance with California regulation, and that should help the rates of theft continue to trend downwards. https://techcrunch.com/2015/02/11/apples-activation-lock-leads-to-big-drops-in-smartphone-theft-worldwide/ https://techcrunch.com/2015/02/11/apples-activation-lock-lea...
- yenwodyah 3y ago
  Well, it wouldn’t be the first time that a law with good intentions has prefaced a loss of freedom
  - jfengel 3y ago
    Laws pretty much always mean a loss of freedom, with the intent of promoting some other positive goal (often, some other freedom). That's why we make them. Balancing these goals is not easy, but we don't get to avoid it just because we want "freedom" as an abstraction. It's an important consideration but only one when you put a lot of people with conflicting goals together.

marcosdumay 3y ago

> I’m not familiar with any ToS that permits a company to repossess your PC or parts of it. Google just decreed that, starting 2 days ago, nobody may distribute software for my phone...