9 ms·

As the woman, I've been the only person in the group asked to put together a pot luck (presumably, this work is beneath the males). I've been the only one asked

As the woman, I've been the only person in the group asked to put together a pot luck (presumably, this work is beneath the males). I've been the only one asked to take notes in a meeting... even if I'm the one who's presenting (because my title really should be 'secretary who we let on the servers'). This, more than the jokes and comments, is the meat of the problem. Inappropriate jokes can be much more easily addressed as soon as they happen - if you're in a meeting and your boss asks you to 'please pull up your blouse because your wonderful breasts are distracting everyone' you can much more easily address it right then and there. But if your boss asks you to take notes, the first couple of times it happens, it could just as well be random (though it isn't, really). It is much harder to say 'no, not taking notes, you only want me to do that because I'm a woman' even when it's true. What's worse is that even when you do notice a pattern, it's harder to address than a rude remark. It's (a) hard to prove it was because of your sex as opposed to some other aspect of your personality ('maybe he thinks you're just good at organizing potlucks, sheesh' - 'you took notes that first time so well!') and (b) behavior is much harder to correct when you have to point out things that happened in the past. 'I take notes 50% of the time, in a group of 5' just doesn't seem to have the same effect on humans, especially in a society where intent is often judged above effect. I'm not a woman, but this is what it seems to me, from what I've observed. edit: I can't find the study I was looking for, but they had a group of people evaluate two sets of identical resumes, with female and male names, for 'competence' and 'likeability'. For males, competence was correlated with likeability, but for females it was anticorrelated, even though the resumes were identical. Less people will think you an 'ice queen' if you call out an inappropriate remark, but countering the above form of sexism seems far more difficult to do while preserving 'likeability' -- 'what's the big deal, I just asked her to take notes!' If anyone else knows where the study is, I would be grateful.

mechanical_fish 15y ago
It seems to me that this is where the men on the team can help: As a man, I'd volunteer to take notes. Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. And that is an entirely different kind of problem. But it's a problem that should not be covered up by deploying sexism.
- enginous 15y ago
  That's true, and an even more powerful response of a man in this position is to deal with the problem less passively by (a) pointing out the trend without making a big deal, (b) suggesting that the team rotate more often, (c) proceeding to lead by example by taking notes. This may be even too subtle a message for a problem as severe as this one, but it at least signals that not everyone within the team will tolerate this behavior, without claims of sexism backed by little evidence.
- ComputerGuru 15y ago
  As a man, I've handled this by being the one to turn it into an obvious sexist thing by making a joke aloud "yeah, Sarah, boss says it's your turn to take notes again because, you know, you're the only girl at the table :P. Ha ha ha ha." Everyone laughs, boss realizes what he's doing, Sarah is off the hook.
  - ckpwong 15y ago
    Yes, your comment may get Sarah off the hook, but I'd probably feel even more offended by that comment than by the boss' request. If she has the courage to display any disdain over your overtly sexism comment though, perhaps the boss would take (mental) note. At the same time, the boss may not even be aware of the sexism in the initial request--he/she may rationalize the request/decision after-the-fact, even if it were made in a sexist light at a subconscious level. In that case, that comment may end up offending both the boss and Sarah. (And yes, women in management sometimes are more sexist against female subordinates than male counterparts.) If you follow up your comment with an apology and an offer to take notes, however, everyone will feel better.
    - lordlicorice 15y ago
      How is that remotely offensive? I think you need to re-read his post.
      - mirkules 15y ago
veb 15y ago
> As the woman, I've been the only person in the group asked to put together a pot luck (presumably, this work is beneath the males). I've been the only one asked to take notes in a meeting... even if I'm the one who's presenting (because my title really should be 'secretary who we let on the servers'). Had a new project manager/analyst join a few months ago, and he bakes a different cake for us each week. it's awesome. :)
yelsgib 15y ago
In my mind, an important point here is that NO ONE should be asked to put together a pot luck. Why does anyone think this kind of thing is appropriate in the workplace? It makes me want to vomit when workplace boss becomes social boss. If anyone ever told me to put together a pot luck my immediate response would be "go fuck yourself."
- pavel_lishin 15y ago
  If you worked with me, I would tell the entire office that everyone is welcome to the 24-pack of beer I brought from home ... except you.
  - yelsgib 15y ago
    I'm really glad I don't work with you, then?
  - jrockway 15y ago
    I wouldn't have hired either of you.
  - colanderman 15y ago
    I believe that would make you a petty asshole. There's a huge difference between offering to organize something social and being told to do so.
  - secoif 15y ago
    Why point out you brought it from home?
- sukuriant 15y ago
  You're getting quite a bit of flak for this. You got a sucky boss? I rather like my co-workers, and potlucks are just one method of team-building/friendship making that can be had at work. No, work buddies should never be your only friends, but to have a pleasant time around co-workers, and to have team-building events such as those? There's nothing wrong with that; and, I would argue it helps to create a condusive and lower-friction environment.
lolilives 15y ago
Not sure, but this might be the study you were referring to: http://advance.cornell.edu/documents/ImpactofGender.pdf http://advance.cornell.edu/documents/ImpactofGender.pdf
blatherard 15y ago
I'd be inclined to give the author the benefit of the doubt, and take serious the problem she's chosen to flag. She's saying that the attitude of "lighten up" is a problem in and of itself. To say that the "meat of the problem" is something else is really kind of like saying "lighten up."
- chanon 15y ago
  This. Why must we re-analyze her problem and say it is something else when she has already clearly stated what it is and how she feels. Seeing the grandparent as the top voted comment is like HN saying 'hey, we know better, your problem is actually this'. Which isn't much different from saying 'lighten up' - both amount to dismissing her feelings.
  - Tichy 15y ago
    Then why discuss her article at all? She has made up her mind and quit, and that is all there is to it?
    - chanon 15y ago
      One thing would be to discuss, as a startup owner, how would one prevent this kind of thing happening in their startup. How to create a culture where women aren't treated like that so that highly talented women are more likely to join and stay. Or is this something that we shouldn't hope to achieve because nerds will always be like that? Judging by other comments here (and recent sexism issues in tech), it seems like her treatment isn't an isolated case.
      - Tichy 15y ago
        You simply assume that she is right, but you have only heard her part of the story. Obviously I don't want to defend the right to leer at work, but it seems impossible to accommodate everybody's preferences for a workplace. Therefore just raising one persons preferences above the preferences of all other people seems questionable to me. For example in other sexism threads the ubiquitous Star Wars posters and stuff like that came up. Should Star Wars posters really be banned in programmers offices, just so that some more women programmers might feel more at home. I don't know...
ckpwong 15y ago
The notetaking situation as you describe it (not necessarily the way Katie was treated) can probably be averted by politely declining, such as, "Can someone else take notes this time? I like to put more focus on this particular discussion." If it's happening even more frequently than, say, 50%, then perhaps something along the line of suggesting everyone taking turns (if it's a regular meeting). At my previous workplace, it's usually the host who sends out meeting notes or action items if needed. Otherwise, the task falls into the hands of the project manager, if one is present in the meeting.
- ericb 15y ago
  Yes, that might keep you from having to take notes, but most fools don't respond to subtlety. The problem is being viewed as nothing more than a note-taker, not the actual note-taking work.

mechanical_fish 15y ago

It seems to me that this is where the men on the team can help: As a man, I'd volunteer to take notes. Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. And that is an entirely different kind of problem. But it's a problem that should not be covered up by deploying sexism.

enginous 15y ago
That's true, and an even more powerful response of a man in this position is to deal with the problem less passively by (a) pointing out the trend without making a big deal, (b) suggesting that the team rotate more often, (c) proceeding to lead by example by taking notes. This may be even too subtle a message for a problem as severe as this one, but it at least signals that not everyone within the team will tolerate this behavior, without claims of sexism backed by little evidence.
ComputerGuru 15y ago
As a man, I've handled this by being the one to turn it into an obvious sexist thing by making a joke aloud "yeah, Sarah, boss says it's your turn to take notes again because, you know, you're the only girl at the table :P. Ha ha ha ha." Everyone laughs, boss realizes what he's doing, Sarah is off the hook.
- ckpwong 15y ago
  Yes, your comment may get Sarah off the hook, but I'd probably feel even more offended by that comment than by the boss' request. If she has the courage to display any disdain over your overtly sexism comment though, perhaps the boss would take (mental) note. At the same time, the boss may not even be aware of the sexism in the initial request--he/she may rationalize the request/decision after-the-fact, even if it were made in a sexist light at a subconscious level. In that case, that comment may end up offending both the boss and Sarah. (And yes, women in management sometimes are more sexist against female subordinates than male counterparts.) If you follow up your comment with an apology and an offer to take notes, however, everyone will feel better.
  - lordlicorice 15y ago
    How is that remotely offensive? I think you need to re-read his post.
    - mirkules 15y ago

veb 15y ago

> As the woman, I've been the only person in the group asked to put together a pot luck (presumably, this work is beneath the males). I've been the only one asked to take notes in a meeting... even if I'm the one who's presenting (because my title really should be 'secretary who we let on the servers'). Had a new project manager/analyst join a few months ago, and he bakes a different cake for us each week. it's awesome. :)

yelsgib 15y ago

In my mind, an important point here is that NO ONE should be asked to put together a pot luck. Why does anyone think this kind of thing is appropriate in the workplace? It makes me want to vomit when workplace boss becomes social boss. If anyone ever told me to put together a pot luck my immediate response would be "go fuck yourself."

pavel_lishin 15y ago
If you worked with me, I would tell the entire office that everyone is welcome to the 24-pack of beer I brought from home ... except you.
- yelsgib 15y ago
  I'm really glad I don't work with you, then?
- jrockway 15y ago
  I wouldn't have hired either of you.
- colanderman 15y ago
  I believe that would make you a petty asshole. There's a huge difference between offering to organize something social and being told to do so.
- secoif 15y ago
  Why point out you brought it from home?
sukuriant 15y ago
You're getting quite a bit of flak for this. You got a sucky boss? I rather like my co-workers, and potlucks are just one method of team-building/friendship making that can be had at work. No, work buddies should never be your only friends, but to have a pleasant time around co-workers, and to have team-building events such as those? There's nothing wrong with that; and, I would argue it helps to create a condusive and lower-friction environment.

lolilives 15y ago

Not sure, but this might be the study you were referring to: http://advance.cornell.edu/documents/ImpactofGender.pdf http://advance.cornell.edu/documents/ImpactofGender.pdf

blatherard 15y ago

I'd be inclined to give the author the benefit of the doubt, and take serious the problem she's chosen to flag. She's saying that the attitude of "lighten up" is a problem in and of itself. To say that the "meat of the problem" is something else is really kind of like saying "lighten up."

chanon 15y ago
This. Why must we re-analyze her problem and say it is something else when she has already clearly stated what it is and how she feels. Seeing the grandparent as the top voted comment is like HN saying 'hey, we know better, your problem is actually this'. Which isn't much different from saying 'lighten up' - both amount to dismissing her feelings.
- Tichy 15y ago
  Then why discuss her article at all? She has made up her mind and quit, and that is all there is to it?
  - chanon 15y ago
    One thing would be to discuss, as a startup owner, how would one prevent this kind of thing happening in their startup. How to create a culture where women aren't treated like that so that highly talented women are more likely to join and stay. Or is this something that we shouldn't hope to achieve because nerds will always be like that? Judging by other comments here (and recent sexism issues in tech), it seems like her treatment isn't an isolated case.
    - Tichy 15y ago
      You simply assume that she is right, but you have only heard her part of the story. Obviously I don't want to defend the right to leer at work, but it seems impossible to accommodate everybody's preferences for a workplace. Therefore just raising one persons preferences above the preferences of all other people seems questionable to me. For example in other sexism threads the ubiquitous Star Wars posters and stuff like that came up. Should Star Wars posters really be banned in programmers offices, just so that some more women programmers might feel more at home. I don't know...

ckpwong 15y ago

The notetaking situation as you describe it (not necessarily the way Katie was treated) can probably be averted by politely declining, such as, "Can someone else take notes this time? I like to put more focus on this particular discussion." If it's happening even more frequently than, say, 50%, then perhaps something along the line of suggesting everyone taking turns (if it's a regular meeting). At my previous workplace, it's usually the host who sends out meeting notes or action items if needed. Otherwise, the task falls into the hands of the project manager, if one is present in the meeting.

ericb 15y ago
Yes, that might keep you from having to take notes, but most fools don't respond to subtlety. The problem is being viewed as nothing more than a note-taker, not the actual note-taking work.