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"For all that he has inspired many a mediocre imitator, the power and legacy of Tolkien, and the high fantasy he invented, cannot be understated." The correct
by thedailymail 3y ago
"For all that he has inspired many a mediocre imitator, the power and legacy of Tolkien, and the high fantasy he invented, cannot be understated."
The correct phrase is "cannot be overstated." I cannot overstate how common the erroneous "understated" variant has become, to the point it now seems likely to replace the original. The problem seems to arise from the trifecta of overstated being less familiar than understated, the difficulty of parsing the meaning of the phrase (which is basically "impossible to exaggerate") and—with apologies to Doug Piranha—litotes.
<End rant>
- yuvalr1 3y agoI was actually confused by that for a moment when reading the article. I think rants such as yours are good and important. Despite not being a native English speaker, I think English speakers should strive to hold to their language rules and not let globalism and less informed people like me take their rich vocabulary and correct grammar away from them.
- actionfromafar 3y agoThe natives do it plenty to themselves, too. It cannot be <whatever>stated.
- nkrisc 3y agoIt is an entirely self-inflicted wound.
- mongol 3y agoWith English as a true lingua franca, I think us non-native speakers should feel some ownership too. It is the language we are required to speak when communicating with foreigners in a globalized world. I think we should see it as our language as well.
- WalterBright 3y agoI don't hew to the notion that a people can "own" a language.
- rendall 3y agoI agree with you, even as a native English speaker. I reside in Northern Europe where almost everyone speaks truly excellent English with a kind of formidable grammatical correctness. However, it is definitely spoken as a business/technical/lingua franca and not as a beautiful, poetic language in its own right. I would love the people who speak it non-natively to truly own it by learning and caring about the nuances, idioms and poetry of English. Know and care for instance what it means when you have me in stitches, or he's a square peg in a round hole, or they got her goat or when someone sighs about a path not taken or says Ay, there's the rub. English is as much about these idioms and aphorisms as it is about making grammatically correct declarative statements like "They write an email. I train an employee. It costs 17 euros. They respect the treaty. She prepares a speech."
- mongol 3y agoI think people care, to the extent they are familiar with the idioms. But what I think matters equally is that new idioms born outside of the natively spoken English should be seen as equally valuable, when they get a meaningful reach. I am thinking for example of "do the needful" which I understand being born in India. I don't hear it used except by Indian English-speakers but I think it should have equal status as your examples.
- rendall 3y ago> But what I think matters equally is that new idioms born outside of the natively spoken English should be seen as equally valuable, when they get a meaningful reach. I am thinking for example of "do the needful" which I understand being born in India. Yes! Absolutely! I agree 100%. English contains multitudes! What does it mean? I think I have even heard it. Where did it come from? Like, a poem or ...?
- actionfromafar 3y agoIsn’t it more “nature calls” than a call to nature, so to speak ;-)
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- LAC-Tech 3y agoI alter my English when talking to non-native speakers. The primary goal is to be understood. But 'international English' is not all how I talk to native speakers, or think to myself, or dream in. I'm quite comfortable with this split.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- fallingknife 3y agoI could care less
- simonh 3y agoI don’t usually worry about misspellings, my spelling and typing isn’t great, but it seems like here particularly Site instead of Cite as in citing a source is painfully common.
- Nevermark 3y ago> my spelling and typing isn’t great “Are not great” Sorry, I had to correct somebody for something in this critique festival. You happen to be the unlucky winner :)
- throw43288 3y agoI do not think this is a typo. Tolkien is very old school. Many people today do not share his opinions and world views. Most old books, movies... were subverted and reinterpreted today, just look at starwars or Witcher. Huge corporation spend billions just for an opportunity to defecate on Tolkien's grave. But his legacy seems to be resistant to this sort of damage!
- raziel2p 3y agoIt is possible that the author meant "cannot" as "should not", but I doubt it.
- Tagbert 3y agoTrue, though using “can” in place of “should” or “must” would still be a mistake.
- nelox 3y agoVerily, Tolkien doth merit my discerning gaze, yet alas, a mere imitator of middling skill, I hath proven to be.
- Semaphor 3y agoHuh, unlike "could care less", I hadn’t encountered this. Though, to play advocatus diaboli, could it be "can not" in the sense of "must not"?
- Anthony-G 3y agoI’m guessing that the bastardised “could care less” is an Americanism that is endemic to Internet discourse. Thankfully, I’ve never heard anyone say it out loud on this side of the Atlantic.
- kurthr 3y agoI'm sure autocorrect will fix that.
- actionfromafar 3y agoI have even heard “could care less” translated to my native language, so I think it’s a lost cause. The center cannot hold.
- mypastself 3y agoNever cared for the many linguistic convolutions of over/understatedness, as I feel I always need to solve an equation in my head to gain a basic piece of information. It’s no wonder even authors get tripped up. Also “nonplussed”, which is its own antonym at this point, and needs to be sanctioned. Wait a minute…
- pbj1968 3y agoNow fix decimate. :)
- zabzonk 3y agoOr teach people what it actually means. But i agree, it is one of those words who's uses in Modern English make me grind my teeth - and i'm not all that fussy.
- ianburrell 3y agoDecimate is already fixed. It means to destroy a large number. It meant killing one in ten in Latin. But there are lots of words that have different meanings in the original language and have changed over time. This meaning is centuries old and the dominate one. I don't know why decimate gets this pedantry. Maybe because it has interesting source but why not talk about the source. It is especially weird coming from online people who use new definitions all the time. Nobody is like the real definition of computer is person who computes. Or hacker is somebody who chops.
- WalterBright 3y ago"If you think X, you've got another thing coming." Another think, not another thing! And it's harebrained, not hairbrained.
- throw16180339 3y agoBoth think and thing are considered correct (https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/usage-another-think-coming-or-another-thing-coming https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/usage-another-think-...). I use the latter because it's much more common in American English.
- dopidopHN 3y agoFun, I have a poor command of the English language and I spotted that. But then I assumed it must be correct. Thanks for pointing it out.
- Supermancho 3y ago> the high fantasy he invented This is an overly simplistic statement about a great achievement, which has had a long-lasting cultural effect. I'm a little confused about why "cannot be overstated" fits better when the preceding phrase is an understatement. Can you explain?
- polishdude20 3y agoThink about it if asked you to overstate Tolkein's achievements if they were great enough, no matter how hard you'd try, you wouldn't be able to over state them.
- Supermancho 3y agoI agree that is the usage of "Cannot be overstated". I don't understand why you would apply a separate scenario from what was written. "Cannot be understated" is a phrase used to emphasize the importance or significance of something. I think that applies. (Google - ludwig.guru summarizer)
- polishdude20 3y agoI thi k maybe it can be used in both ways, like " I cannot overstate the importance of this" or "you can not understate what I just said" cannot as in "I am not allowing you to understate what I said". Idk, that's my most generous reading of it.
- xorcist 3y agoThat sentence, taken as it is written, would imply the exact opposite to me. There may be dialectal differences, of course, but if there are then people are bound to misunderstand this. If you cannot understate something, then any statement no matter how bad (for example "it is mediocre") is likely to be an overstatement. That's now how you would think of something important. Double negations are always tricky. "Can not be understated" can more clearly be written as "easy to overstate". English slang is full of double negations. A sentence such as "I didn't do no harm", which would absolutely mean harm was inflicted, can mean the opposite. So it may be good to avoid them as to not confuse non native speakers.
- kmlx 3y ago> I cannot overstate how common the erroneous "understated" variant has become personal pet peeve of which i’ve written about before: loose vs lose two completely different meanings and pronunciations.
- throwaway019254 3y agoLoose and lose has different pronunciation?
- pirates 3y agoloose for me is “loos” or “lewss” with an emphasis on making the “s” sound like “s”, versus lose sounding like “looze” or “lewz” that have a “z” sound at the end. which is interesting for sure since “loser” still has the Z sound (mostly), and to make something less tight you make it “looser” with an S sound.
- kmlx 3y agoloose /luːs/ eg There were some loose wires hanging out of the wall. lose /luːz/ eg At least 600 staff will lose their jobs if the factory closes.
- julianeon 3y agoHeh, that is pretty funny. > Tolkien's whole output has been less important than a single episode of Rick & Morty. There, I understated his influence. See how easy that was?
- snthpy 3y agoThis is bizarre. I've never heard the incorrect version said before. Do people actually say that because it makes no sense?
- grigri907 3y agoThe greatest irony of all is that most people misapply "ironic" when they actually mean "appropriate."