3 ms·

Were you born in America or did you immigrate there? That drastically affects how embarrassing that proclamation is.

by scubbo 3y ago

nonethewiser 3y ago
What's embarrassing is choosing to reside in a country you are ashamed of.
- eesmith 3y ago
  "America, love it or leave it" was tired even in the 1970s. If you are ashamed of something, you should be free to fix it, not obliged to leave. According to one survey, French, Germans, and Brits are more proud and less embarrassed about their country than the US: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/05/05/5-national-pride-and-shame/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/05/05/5-national-pri... Bear in mind how England and Germany also have a history of national pride connected with imperialism and the killing and subjugation of other peoples. Unfortunately, in the present-day the ones who voice their national pride most loudly tend to connected it to historic supremacy, as with far-right English nationalists using the English flag. This makes it hard for people who do feel pride for the modern country to express that pride.
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    > "America, love it or leave it" was tired even in the 1970s. > If you are ashamed of something, you should be free to fix it, not obliged to leave. Should immigrants not come to America and instead fix their own country? I don’t think that way but that seems to follow from your suggestion. There are plenty of people embarrassed of America who aren’t trying to fix it or arent affecting any change. Wanting it to be different is neither of these things.
    - eesmith 3y ago
      > I don’t think that way but that seems to follow from your suggestion. You should re-study classical logic. You turned the proposition "If you are ashamed of something, you should not be obliged to leave" into "You have left therefore you must be ashamed of something". This is a fallacy. I wrote "if P then Q or not Q" (if ashamed you are free to stay and you are free to not stay), which you turned into "if not Q then P" ("you did not stay therefore you must be ashamed). Similarly, turning "If you are ashamed of something you should be free to fix it" into "If you are ashamed of something you are obliged to fix it" is another logical fallacy. Just because someone is free to do something does not make them obligated to do it.

Were you born in America or did you immigrate there? That drastically affects how embarrassing that proclamation is.

by scubbo 3y ago

Were you born in America or did you immigrate there? That drastically affects how embarrassing that proclamation is.

nonethewiser 3y ago

What's embarrassing is choosing to reside in a country you are ashamed of.

eesmith 3y ago
"America, love it or leave it" was tired even in the 1970s. If you are ashamed of something, you should be free to fix it, not obliged to leave. According to one survey, French, Germans, and Brits are more proud and less embarrassed about their country than the US: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/05/05/5-national-pride-and-shame/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/05/05/5-national-pri... Bear in mind how England and Germany also have a history of national pride connected with imperialism and the killing and subjugation of other peoples. Unfortunately, in the present-day the ones who voice their national pride most loudly tend to connected it to historic supremacy, as with far-right English nationalists using the English flag. This makes it hard for people who do feel pride for the modern country to express that pride.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  > "America, love it or leave it" was tired even in the 1970s. > If you are ashamed of something, you should be free to fix it, not obliged to leave. Should immigrants not come to America and instead fix their own country? I don’t think that way but that seems to follow from your suggestion. There are plenty of people embarrassed of America who aren’t trying to fix it or arent affecting any change. Wanting it to be different is neither of these things.
  - eesmith 3y ago
    > I don’t think that way but that seems to follow from your suggestion. You should re-study classical logic. You turned the proposition "If you are ashamed of something, you should not be obliged to leave" into "You have left therefore you must be ashamed of something". This is a fallacy. I wrote "if P then Q or not Q" (if ashamed you are free to stay and you are free to not stay), which you turned into "if not Q then P" ("you did not stay therefore you must be ashamed). Similarly, turning "If you are ashamed of something you should be free to fix it" into "If you are ashamed of something you are obliged to fix it" is another logical fallacy. Just because someone is free to do something does not make them obligated to do it.