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Usually I tell people Im proud of being American without being an ass about it. Sometimes people are asses about it but usually there is some good natured prodd

Usually I tell people Im proud of being American without being an ass about it. Sometimes people are asses about it but usually there is some good natured prodding. Sometimes people from Europe even express some jealousy and lament that people arent proud of being English, German, etc. They’re usually surprised to hear its the same story in America but just look at this thread.

scubbo 3y ago
Were you born in America or did you immigrate there? That drastically affects how embarrassing that proclamation is.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  What's embarrassing is choosing to reside in a country you are ashamed of.
  - eesmith 3y ago
    "America, love it or leave it" was tired even in the 1970s. If you are ashamed of something, you should be free to fix it, not obliged to leave. According to one survey, French, Germans, and Brits are more proud and less embarrassed about their country than the US: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/05/05/5-national-pride-and-shame/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/05/05/5-national-pri... Bear in mind how England and Germany also have a history of national pride connected with imperialism and the killing and subjugation of other peoples. Unfortunately, in the present-day the ones who voice their national pride most loudly tend to connected it to historic supremacy, as with far-right English nationalists using the English flag. This makes it hard for people who do feel pride for the modern country to express that pride.
    - nonethewiser 3y ago
      > "America, love it or leave it" was tired even in the 1970s. > If you are ashamed of something, you should be free to fix it, not obliged to leave. Should immigrants not come to America and instead fix their own country? I don’t think that way but that seems to follow from your suggestion. There are plenty of people embarrassed of America who aren’t trying to fix it or arent affecting any change. Wanting it to be different is neither of these things.
      - eesmith 3y ago
        > I don’t think that way but that seems to follow from your suggestion. You should re-study classical logic. You turned the proposition "If you are ashamed of something, you should not be obliged to leave" into "You have left therefore you must be ashamed of something". This is a fallacy. I wrote "if P then Q or not Q" (if ashamed you are free to stay and you are free to not stay), which you turned into "if not Q then P" ("you did not stay therefore you must be ashamed). Similarly, turning "If you are ashamed of something you should be free to fix it" into "If you are ashamed of something you are obliged to fix it" is another logical fallacy. Just because someone is free to do something does not make them obligated to do it.
Tainnor 3y ago
I still don't understand how you can be "proud" to have been randomly born in a specific country. You can be happy to be an American, or you can feel a deep connection to your country, you can proudly defend certain values, but being proud of having "won" the birth lottery? I don't get it.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  > I still don't understand how you can be "proud" to have been randomly born in a specific country. I never said that Being proud of being a certain nationality is a function of many things. Your ancestors migrating, or staying in the same place, founding values, current and past culture etc. Following your reasoning, one could say “I don't understand how you can be ‘embarrassed’ to have been randomly born in a specific country.” I think your frame misses whats actually being said. We agree no one should place the value or fault on random birth origin.
  - Tainnor 3y ago
    Yes, I think it's equally weird to be embarrassed of your own country. I don't think you can or should be proud or ashamed of something you had no influence over.
    - dazilcher 3y ago
      Immigrants most certainly have some agency over their citizenship. Do you find their pride less confusing?
      - Tainnor 3y ago
        To an extent, yes, but even so, immigrants didn't create the culture of the nation they migrated to.
RobinL 3y ago
There's an important element of cultural context. In England if you say you're proud of being English that might sometimes be associated with nationalism, which in turn sometimes is associated with racist parties and groups. Flying the St George's Cross (outside big international sporting events) can sometimes have this connotation. As far as I understand it there's no such connotation for flying the American flag
- nickthegreek 3y ago
  There is the same concept in America.

scubbo 3y ago

Were you born in America or did you immigrate there? That drastically affects how embarrassing that proclamation is.

nonethewiser 3y ago
What's embarrassing is choosing to reside in a country you are ashamed of.
- eesmith 3y ago
  "America, love it or leave it" was tired even in the 1970s. If you are ashamed of something, you should be free to fix it, not obliged to leave. According to one survey, French, Germans, and Brits are more proud and less embarrassed about their country than the US: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/05/05/5-national-pride-and-shame/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/05/05/5-national-pri... Bear in mind how England and Germany also have a history of national pride connected with imperialism and the killing and subjugation of other peoples. Unfortunately, in the present-day the ones who voice their national pride most loudly tend to connected it to historic supremacy, as with far-right English nationalists using the English flag. This makes it hard for people who do feel pride for the modern country to express that pride.
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    > "America, love it or leave it" was tired even in the 1970s. > If you are ashamed of something, you should be free to fix it, not obliged to leave. Should immigrants not come to America and instead fix their own country? I don’t think that way but that seems to follow from your suggestion. There are plenty of people embarrassed of America who aren’t trying to fix it or arent affecting any change. Wanting it to be different is neither of these things.
    - eesmith 3y ago
      > I don’t think that way but that seems to follow from your suggestion. You should re-study classical logic. You turned the proposition "If you are ashamed of something, you should not be obliged to leave" into "You have left therefore you must be ashamed of something". This is a fallacy. I wrote "if P then Q or not Q" (if ashamed you are free to stay and you are free to not stay), which you turned into "if not Q then P" ("you did not stay therefore you must be ashamed). Similarly, turning "If you are ashamed of something you should be free to fix it" into "If you are ashamed of something you are obliged to fix it" is another logical fallacy. Just because someone is free to do something does not make them obligated to do it.

Tainnor 3y ago

I still don't understand how you can be "proud" to have been randomly born in a specific country. You can be happy to be an American, or you can feel a deep connection to your country, you can proudly defend certain values, but being proud of having "won" the birth lottery? I don't get it.

nonethewiser 3y ago
> I still don't understand how you can be "proud" to have been randomly born in a specific country. I never said that Being proud of being a certain nationality is a function of many things. Your ancestors migrating, or staying in the same place, founding values, current and past culture etc. Following your reasoning, one could say “I don't understand how you can be ‘embarrassed’ to have been randomly born in a specific country.” I think your frame misses whats actually being said. We agree no one should place the value or fault on random birth origin.
- Tainnor 3y ago
  Yes, I think it's equally weird to be embarrassed of your own country. I don't think you can or should be proud or ashamed of something you had no influence over.
  - dazilcher 3y ago
    Immigrants most certainly have some agency over their citizenship. Do you find their pride less confusing?
    - Tainnor 3y ago
      To an extent, yes, but even so, immigrants didn't create the culture of the nation they migrated to.

RobinL 3y ago

There's an important element of cultural context. In England if you say you're proud of being English that might sometimes be associated with nationalism, which in turn sometimes is associated with racist parties and groups. Flying the St George's Cross (outside big international sporting events) can sometimes have this connotation. As far as I understand it there's no such connotation for flying the American flag

nickthegreek 3y ago
There is the same concept in America.