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A lot of good architecture there but I found Singapore the most existentially-horrifying place I've ever been. It's like if the feeling of being on antidepressa

A lot of good architecture there but I found Singapore the most existentially-horrifying place I've ever been. It's like if the feeling of being on antidepressants was a city.

teddyh 3y ago
William Gibson famously called it “Disneyland with the Death Penalty”.
- wwtdtgotiatl 3y ago
  So Florida but without an actual Disneyland?
tpmx 3y ago
I looked into living there almost a decade ago (doing remote work, software work is still not valued highly locally, afaik) but after a few visits and talking to tech people there I realized I probably wouldn't enjoy living there. I think Singapore is the number one indication that the corruption indices are bogus.
- teddyh 3y ago
  It’s the Corruption Perceptions Index. Not the Actual or Measured Corruption Index.
  - tpmx 3y ago
    Exactly.
- yawaramin 3y ago
  Can you explain a bit? Why is Singapore corrupt?
  - tpmx 3y ago
    Most of the problems I was made aware of had to do with international trade, not domestic trade. One guy I met said he privately imported (some of) the goods needed to build his home by containers from Europe because buying them locally was like double the price, because that meant buying them from essentially government-party-appointed resellers. I obviously have no way of verifying the truth of that statement but you did ask.
    - swyx 3y ago
      i mean thats gotta be a huge home because no way that economically makes sense if you think about it
    - archibaldJ 3y ago
      so that was what you meant by corruption? like corruption not in the governmental and bribery sense but corruption by evading loosely-regulated law?
    - unmole 3y ago
      > One guy I met said he privately imported (some of) the goods needed to build his home Someone having their own home built in Singapore would have to be extremely wealthy. And the fact that shipping goods from Europe made any kind of economic sense suggests these were luxury goods. So, yeah. I'm going to entirely discount this anecdote.
    - jnaina 3y ago
      Singaporean here. Singapore has always be a free port. Anyone can setup a business and legally import items. There are no such thing as “government-party-appointed resellers”. Best to entirely disregard this anecdote.
    - chanux 3y ago
      FWIW. https://www.academia.sg/academic-views/singapore-crony-capitalism-index-ranking/ https://www.academia.sg/academic-views/singapore-crony-capit...
    - theonething 3y ago
- theonething 3y ago
  What kinds of corruption have you observed?
- goodbyesf 3y ago
  It's a sad state of affairs when even the corruption indexes have fallen prey to corruption. But then again, what financial center around the world isn't corrupt? Where money congregates, corruption is the rule.
- jnaina 3y ago
  Having lived and worked in a number of Asian countries, Singapore remains as one of the countries with very low levels of corruption. I work for a FAANG in Singapore. The above statement about remote work and software work being not valued are not based on facts/reality. My manager is the least bothered if I come to work or WFH, as long as I delver results/work assigned.
  - allarm 3y ago
    Historically engineers (including software) are considered blue collar - that’s what I heard multiple times from the locals. That’s what I experienced myself while living and working there. FAANG is not a good example, try working outside of the FAANG bubble and see for yourself.
    - _pyqs 3y ago
      I think this would help put this topic in context: http://elijames.org/the-two-tiers-of-singapores-tech-companies/ http://elijames.org/the-two-tiers-of-singapores-tech-compani...
      - allarm 3y ago
        Can you briefly summarize this wall of text?
        peanutcrisis 3y ago
        The point of providing a link here is to outsource the explanation to someone who does it better. If you take issue with that, you could always get chatGPT to summarize for you.
        allarm 3y ago
        I thought you had a point to discuss and linked the article to illustrate that point. That would have been interesting. If this link was purely informational - I’m sorry, I’m not interested.
- AmericanChopper 3y ago
  Freedom of speech is obviously an issue in Singapore, and I think the government using legislation to “fact-check” the media is quite troubling, but… I really don’t think Singapore is very corrupt. I’ve lived and worked there, and every interaction I’ve ever had with the government reinforced my perception that they would always deal with me fairly. I trust them more in that sense than I have trusted the governments in western countries that I’ve lived in (many of which have recently started to abandon the free-speech advantage they’ve previously held over places like Singapore).
  - JimDabell 3y ago
    Singapore is one of the few places I’ve been where the government is both highly competent and is predominantly focused on the best interests of its people rather than itself. POFMA is an issue. It’s a socially conservative country, but the government is a little more liberal than its people; I get the impression the government leans more conservative than it would like to, just to keep the pioneer generation happy.
    - noobermin 3y ago
      This is basically true. Liberal cosmopolitan types are the government, may be not the MPs although they are being pulled anyway from their younger technocratic underlings. The older folks, religious folks, etc are the reason for the social conservatism, it's essentially done to appease them. I don't think government cares, just like most global businesses, they've found doing the corporate-rainbow capitalism stuff is good for business, which is a mixed bag for progressives in general but is what it is. I think in with a different public the same technocrats in the PAP would end up being as rainbow capitalist as the rest of the world, with it's benefits and issues.
- noobermin 3y ago
  Singapore isn't really corrupt, it's just that the rich are allowed to play and everyone else is allowed to suffer. Hyperbole aside, I actually really enjoy my life here. It's just really expensive (that's the "rich are allowed to play" bit). People are very friendly and down to earth which is something I don't usually experience in the other big, dense cities I've visited (San fran, LA, NYC, DC, Paris, etc).
panagathon 3y ago
This puts into words how that city made my wife and I feel. Very well said, in my opinion
- causality0 3y ago
  You get the feeling it's the way the world would be if it were run by an all-powerful computer.
nmfisher 3y ago
I live in Singapore and haven't found this at all. My only real complaints are (a) it's hot, and (b) it's a small, dense, urban environment with too many cars, it often feels quite suffocating. There is a third issue (freedom-of-speech), but I figure as a foreigner it's not my place to complain about that.
- JimDabell 3y ago
  Same. When I hear things like that I don’t see how it relates to Singapore at all. Maybe if you’re a tourist here for a few days and never leave the city centre, or if you’ve never visited and just read that Disneyland article that is mentioned every time Singapore comes up on Hacker News. I spent yesterday wandering around nature, saw a giant atlas moth, some snakes, and some crocodiles. The very opposite of “existentially-horrifying”.
- Grimburger 3y ago
  > too many cars Compared to where? Singapore is probably the best example of ubiquitous public transport on earth. Owning a car in SG is more a flaunt than sensible decision from a financial or health point of view. > There is a third issue (freedom-of-speech) As an ang moh can relate but what exactly is stifling you from speaking your mind? Here we are talking about it. The young are rising up in the country and it's great to see, there's been windbacks on laws against gays along with other pretty stark sentiment changes in the population, there's a real fear in the ruling party about being the first to lose government and they are quick to bend to the whims of the populace. The main outlet for an everyday person is online and here we are. No one is stopping you, no one is certainly stopping r/singaporeraw > small, dense, urban environment Borneo, one of the most biologically diverse places on Earth is an hour away on a plane. There's untamed jungle trails an hour across the border if you care to walk them. > it's hot For the first few months, then you adapt.
  - noobermin 3y ago
    Singapore has a very high level of space devoted to car infrastructure. It has little infrastructure for cyclists, despite cycling being a large part of it's history and a common use of transport for many today, so pedestrians are forced to fight for space with cyclists on the tiny drain cover sidewalks that do exist. In SG, by law you have to yield to cars everywhere, some have internalised this so much they yield even in zebra crossings that by law motorists have to yield to pedestrians. Walking in sg is a chore, given you have to yield at every informal crossing (termed "unmarked crosswalk" in US parlance). This is even more mafan on bicycle because you have to stop and stand. All of this for a city where only 11% of people own a car, mostly people who are wealthy enough to afford COE, meaning they can fork over 100K+ sgd every ten years just to drive, or have company car (rich ang mo), it's a great example of the class stratification that exists but has been systematically squeezed out of the consciousness and discussion or has been substituted by racial or anti-foreigner sentiments. The public transit saves the city and the fact walkways do exist everywhere is great and a lot better than for example the US (hard to do worse than the worst), but it is seriously car centric of a city.
ylyn 3y ago
Why? As someone who's lived here for more than 20 years, I really don't know what you mean.
allarm 3y ago
I know. Lived there for 6 years, leaving it was the best decision of my life.

A lot of good architecture there but I found Singapore the most existentially-horrifying place I've ever been. It's like if the feeling of being on antidepressants was a city.

teddyh 3y ago

William Gibson famously called it “Disneyland with the Death Penalty”.

wwtdtgotiatl 3y ago
So Florida but without an actual Disneyland?

tpmx 3y ago

I looked into living there almost a decade ago (doing remote work, software work is still not valued highly locally, afaik) but after a few visits and talking to tech people there I realized I probably wouldn't enjoy living there. I think Singapore is the number one indication that the corruption indices are bogus.

teddyh 3y ago
It’s the Corruption Perceptions Index. Not the Actual or Measured Corruption Index.
- tpmx 3y ago
  Exactly.
yawaramin 3y ago
Can you explain a bit? Why is Singapore corrupt?
- tpmx 3y ago
  Most of the problems I was made aware of had to do with international trade, not domestic trade. One guy I met said he privately imported (some of) the goods needed to build his home by containers from Europe because buying them locally was like double the price, because that meant buying them from essentially government-party-appointed resellers. I obviously have no way of verifying the truth of that statement but you did ask.
  - swyx 3y ago
    i mean thats gotta be a huge home because no way that economically makes sense if you think about it
  - archibaldJ 3y ago
    so that was what you meant by corruption? like corruption not in the governmental and bribery sense but corruption by evading loosely-regulated law?
  - unmole 3y ago
    > One guy I met said he privately imported (some of) the goods needed to build his home Someone having their own home built in Singapore would have to be extremely wealthy. And the fact that shipping goods from Europe made any kind of economic sense suggests these were luxury goods. So, yeah. I'm going to entirely discount this anecdote.
  - jnaina 3y ago
    Singaporean here. Singapore has always be a free port. Anyone can setup a business and legally import items. There are no such thing as “government-party-appointed resellers”. Best to entirely disregard this anecdote.
  - chanux 3y ago
    FWIW. https://www.academia.sg/academic-views/singapore-crony-capitalism-index-ranking/ https://www.academia.sg/academic-views/singapore-crony-capit...
  - theonething 3y ago
theonething 3y ago
What kinds of corruption have you observed?
goodbyesf 3y ago
It's a sad state of affairs when even the corruption indexes have fallen prey to corruption. But then again, what financial center around the world isn't corrupt? Where money congregates, corruption is the rule.
jnaina 3y ago
Having lived and worked in a number of Asian countries, Singapore remains as one of the countries with very low levels of corruption. I work for a FAANG in Singapore. The above statement about remote work and software work being not valued are not based on facts/reality. My manager is the least bothered if I come to work or WFH, as long as I delver results/work assigned.
- allarm 3y ago
  Historically engineers (including software) are considered blue collar - that’s what I heard multiple times from the locals. That’s what I experienced myself while living and working there. FAANG is not a good example, try working outside of the FAANG bubble and see for yourself.
  - _pyqs 3y ago
    I think this would help put this topic in context: http://elijames.org/the-two-tiers-of-singapores-tech-companies/ http://elijames.org/the-two-tiers-of-singapores-tech-compani...
    - allarm 3y ago
      Can you briefly summarize this wall of text?
      - peanutcrisis 3y ago
        The point of providing a link here is to outsource the explanation to someone who does it better. If you take issue with that, you could always get chatGPT to summarize for you.
        allarm 3y ago
        I thought you had a point to discuss and linked the article to illustrate that point. That would have been interesting. If this link was purely informational - I’m sorry, I’m not interested.
AmericanChopper 3y ago
Freedom of speech is obviously an issue in Singapore, and I think the government using legislation to “fact-check” the media is quite troubling, but… I really don’t think Singapore is very corrupt. I’ve lived and worked there, and every interaction I’ve ever had with the government reinforced my perception that they would always deal with me fairly. I trust them more in that sense than I have trusted the governments in western countries that I’ve lived in (many of which have recently started to abandon the free-speech advantage they’ve previously held over places like Singapore).
- JimDabell 3y ago
  Singapore is one of the few places I’ve been where the government is both highly competent and is predominantly focused on the best interests of its people rather than itself. POFMA is an issue. It’s a socially conservative country, but the government is a little more liberal than its people; I get the impression the government leans more conservative than it would like to, just to keep the pioneer generation happy.
  - noobermin 3y ago
    This is basically true. Liberal cosmopolitan types are the government, may be not the MPs although they are being pulled anyway from their younger technocratic underlings. The older folks, religious folks, etc are the reason for the social conservatism, it's essentially done to appease them. I don't think government cares, just like most global businesses, they've found doing the corporate-rainbow capitalism stuff is good for business, which is a mixed bag for progressives in general but is what it is. I think in with a different public the same technocrats in the PAP would end up being as rainbow capitalist as the rest of the world, with it's benefits and issues.
noobermin 3y ago
Singapore isn't really corrupt, it's just that the rich are allowed to play and everyone else is allowed to suffer. Hyperbole aside, I actually really enjoy my life here. It's just really expensive (that's the "rich are allowed to play" bit). People are very friendly and down to earth which is something I don't usually experience in the other big, dense cities I've visited (San fran, LA, NYC, DC, Paris, etc).

panagathon 3y ago

This puts into words how that city made my wife and I feel. Very well said, in my opinion

causality0 3y ago
You get the feeling it's the way the world would be if it were run by an all-powerful computer.

nmfisher 3y ago

I live in Singapore and haven't found this at all. My only real complaints are (a) it's hot, and (b) it's a small, dense, urban environment with too many cars, it often feels quite suffocating. There is a third issue (freedom-of-speech), but I figure as a foreigner it's not my place to complain about that.

JimDabell 3y ago
Same. When I hear things like that I don’t see how it relates to Singapore at all. Maybe if you’re a tourist here for a few days and never leave the city centre, or if you’ve never visited and just read that Disneyland article that is mentioned every time Singapore comes up on Hacker News. I spent yesterday wandering around nature, saw a giant atlas moth, some snakes, and some crocodiles. The very opposite of “existentially-horrifying”.
Grimburger 3y ago
> too many cars Compared to where? Singapore is probably the best example of ubiquitous public transport on earth. Owning a car in SG is more a flaunt than sensible decision from a financial or health point of view. > There is a third issue (freedom-of-speech) As an ang moh can relate but what exactly is stifling you from speaking your mind? Here we are talking about it. The young are rising up in the country and it's great to see, there's been windbacks on laws against gays along with other pretty stark sentiment changes in the population, there's a real fear in the ruling party about being the first to lose government and they are quick to bend to the whims of the populace. The main outlet for an everyday person is online and here we are. No one is stopping you, no one is certainly stopping r/singaporeraw > small, dense, urban environment Borneo, one of the most biologically diverse places on Earth is an hour away on a plane. There's untamed jungle trails an hour across the border if you care to walk them. > it's hot For the first few months, then you adapt.
- noobermin 3y ago
  Singapore has a very high level of space devoted to car infrastructure. It has little infrastructure for cyclists, despite cycling being a large part of it's history and a common use of transport for many today, so pedestrians are forced to fight for space with cyclists on the tiny drain cover sidewalks that do exist. In SG, by law you have to yield to cars everywhere, some have internalised this so much they yield even in zebra crossings that by law motorists have to yield to pedestrians. Walking in sg is a chore, given you have to yield at every informal crossing (termed "unmarked crosswalk" in US parlance). This is even more mafan on bicycle because you have to stop and stand. All of this for a city where only 11% of people own a car, mostly people who are wealthy enough to afford COE, meaning they can fork over 100K+ sgd every ten years just to drive, or have company car (rich ang mo), it's a great example of the class stratification that exists but has been systematically squeezed out of the consciousness and discussion or has been substituted by racial or anti-foreigner sentiments. The public transit saves the city and the fact walkways do exist everywhere is great and a lot better than for example the US (hard to do worse than the worst), but it is seriously car centric of a city.

ylyn 3y ago

Why? As someone who's lived here for more than 20 years, I really don't know what you mean.

allarm 3y ago

I know. Lived there for 6 years, leaving it was the best decision of my life.