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This is nowhere near as confusing as you're making it out to be. - 802.3bu specifies PoDL (power over data lines). - 802.3bp specifies 1000Mb/s over SP

This is nowhere near as confusing as you're making it out to be. - 802.3bu specifies PoDL (power over data lines). - 802.3bp specifies 1000Mb/s over SPE (single pair ethernet) - 802.3bw specifies 100Mb/s over SPE - 802.3cg specifies 10Mb/s over SPE - 802.3da is an enhancement of 802.3cg. In fact, you've had most of this explained to you before[0], including your long "whyyyyyy". Modern WiFi has a very long list of 802.11 standards attached to it... My WiFi access point supports all of these: - 802.11a - 802.11b - 802.11g - 802.11n - 802.11ac - 802.11ax I rarely hear anyone complain about the alphabet soup involved there, but relatively recently, they've been rebranding it as WiFi 5, WiFi 6, WiFi 7 since it is something consumers run into more frequently than things like SPE. SPE is not intended for home users. The SPE standards are designed to make things easier for automotive and industrial applications, and they seem fine. Automotive needs are not the same as industrial needs, so flexibility in the standards allows them to meet the specific needs of each application better. It also allows them to remove unnecessary weight and complexity. Weight reduction is one of the main reasons automotive is interested in SPE. SPE has no obvious advantages for home users over something like Monoprice's Micro SlimRun cables, which are extremely thin and flexible, for example. So, it makes sense that they haven't put effort into giving it cool branding like "WiFi 7". [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35074023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35074023

addaon 3y ago
> SPE has no obvious advantages for home users over something like Monoprice's Micro SlimRun cables, which are extremely thin and flexible, for example. PoDL does have real advantages over PoE. I agree that there's no home-user-ready products at this point, but I could see future exploration of this space for that reason alone.
- coder543 3y ago
  > PoDL does have real advantages over PoE. I'm curious, what advantages are you thinking of? PoE++ can deliver more power than PoDL, last I checked. I guess the option for lower voltage could be nice in some very specific applications? I think the minimum for PoDL in the spec is 12V, which would still require conversion for pretty much any use case.
  - addaon 3y ago
    PoDL and PoE are both limited to SELV (< 60 V) for safety reasons, so no win there. On paper, PoE can handle more current; but PoE current is limited by center-tapped transformers, which tend to overheat if you push too far. Just due to the ease of getting a wider range of inductors, it's pretty easy to build PoDL systems that go up to wire current capabilities; and SPE runs better than you'd expect for tens of meters over some ridiculous high-gauge wire, since it really is tolerant of out-of-spec wiring. 5A - 10 A (300 W - 600 W) over a, let's say, "PoDL-inspired" system is quite achievable.
    - coder543 3y ago
      As far as I know, the PoDL spec tops out at around 50W, but you could be right that a “PoDL-inspired” system (which I found amusing) could potentially go much higher than that.
      - addaon 3y ago
        Yeah. Basically PoE forces a common coupling (center-tapped transformer) for both power and data, which really limits not just part availability but also the design space. While the PoDL inductive power coupling and capacitive data coupling interact (and pin capacitance of the inductor can be an issue with really big inductors), they're near-independence really, really opens the design space up.
aeyes 3y ago
> SPE has no obvious advantages for home users over something like It does, I already have a single twisted pair running in the walls of a building where it is hard to run new cables but I can't get more than 100Mb/s at the moment. Using existing wiring is always a use case, a lot of people use MoCA or PLC because they can't run new cables for whatever reason. But as you said, unfortunately SPE is strictly for industrial applications at the moment and there is no affordable product for consumers.
- wolrah 3y ago
  > It does, I already have a single twisted pair running in the walls of a building where it is hard to run new cables but I can't get more than 100Mb/s at the moment. The 100mbit and gigabit variants of SPE require higher grade cabling than their multi-pair counterparts. 1000BaseT1 requires Cat6A, which would normally be needed for 10 gigabit. It is very unlikely that you have a single pair of Cat6A grade wiring available, or that anyone does anywhere. They're not really for reusing existing wiring, they're for reducing wire count in new harnesses in automotive, aerospace, and other applications where size/lightness matters. The 10 mbit SPE varieties on the other hand, those are more closely targeted at reusing existing wiring, but they mean the sort of wiring that might have previously carried CAN or other common control bus.
  - RF_Savage 3y ago
    Yep, 10Base-T1L is for upgrading those old 9600baud modbus wiring to 10mbit fullduplex.
ilyt 3y ago
> SPE is not intended for home users. Seems plenty useful if you could actually buy that stuff for the home-user-tolerable pricing. Connecting and powering 4 different devices over single ethernet cable is a very nice use case for various sensors. Hell, even for IoT, ethernet/IP is pretty simple protocol compared to BT stack, wifi+ip, or zigbee, just plug in and power your sensor/switch/relay with 2 wires directly into local ethernet network, no bridges needed, and pretty safe too vs any radio.
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  > Connecting and powering 4 different devices over single ethernet cable is a very nice use case for various sensors. If you have multiple clusters of devices, I can see that. But in most cases I feel like a bunch of thin cables will be significantly less hassle than trying to split things.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    If you're dragging cables sure, but you might have a ethernet cable already in place. Currently option is to get a PoE-powered switch and split it off that way which is extra device to manage.
  - MayeulC 3y ago
    I feel like SPE has a lot of potential for IoT, sensors, etc. Well, maybe some cheap PLC could compete too, but the multi-drop and PoDL capabilities are quite interesting for dispatching a few $3 sensors. I kind of want to run SPE over old coaxial cables that are quite commonly found in relatively recent houses. Add a cheap ESP with I2S, an I2S DAC and a speaker, and you get a smart multi-room speaker setup.
    - samtho 3y ago
      If you have coax, you already have a sufficiently shielded connection so you wont need a twisted pair. You can just modulate an RF signal down the line - I think there is even a standard for it that is not DOCSIS for sending small data packets.
LastTrain 3y ago
Rude. Clearly the GP doesn’t need that explained, they understand it & simply don’t agree that it is “simple”. And the whhyyyy was obviously rhetorical - not a call for help. Jeez.

addaon 3y ago

> SPE has no obvious advantages for home users over something like Monoprice's Micro SlimRun cables, which are extremely thin and flexible, for example. PoDL does have real advantages over PoE. I agree that there's no home-user-ready products at this point, but I could see future exploration of this space for that reason alone.

coder543 3y ago
> PoDL does have real advantages over PoE. I'm curious, what advantages are you thinking of? PoE++ can deliver more power than PoDL, last I checked. I guess the option for lower voltage could be nice in some very specific applications? I think the minimum for PoDL in the spec is 12V, which would still require conversion for pretty much any use case.
- addaon 3y ago
  PoDL and PoE are both limited to SELV (< 60 V) for safety reasons, so no win there. On paper, PoE can handle more current; but PoE current is limited by center-tapped transformers, which tend to overheat if you push too far. Just due to the ease of getting a wider range of inductors, it's pretty easy to build PoDL systems that go up to wire current capabilities; and SPE runs better than you'd expect for tens of meters over some ridiculous high-gauge wire, since it really is tolerant of out-of-spec wiring. 5A - 10 A (300 W - 600 W) over a, let's say, "PoDL-inspired" system is quite achievable.
  - coder543 3y ago
    As far as I know, the PoDL spec tops out at around 50W, but you could be right that a “PoDL-inspired” system (which I found amusing) could potentially go much higher than that.
    - addaon 3y ago
      Yeah. Basically PoE forces a common coupling (center-tapped transformer) for both power and data, which really limits not just part availability but also the design space. While the PoDL inductive power coupling and capacitive data coupling interact (and pin capacitance of the inductor can be an issue with really big inductors), they're near-independence really, really opens the design space up.

aeyes 3y ago

> SPE has no obvious advantages for home users over something like It does, I already have a single twisted pair running in the walls of a building where it is hard to run new cables but I can't get more than 100Mb/s at the moment. Using existing wiring is always a use case, a lot of people use MoCA or PLC because they can't run new cables for whatever reason. But as you said, unfortunately SPE is strictly for industrial applications at the moment and there is no affordable product for consumers.

wolrah 3y ago
> It does, I already have a single twisted pair running in the walls of a building where it is hard to run new cables but I can't get more than 100Mb/s at the moment. The 100mbit and gigabit variants of SPE require higher grade cabling than their multi-pair counterparts. 1000BaseT1 requires Cat6A, which would normally be needed for 10 gigabit. It is very unlikely that you have a single pair of Cat6A grade wiring available, or that anyone does anywhere. They're not really for reusing existing wiring, they're for reducing wire count in new harnesses in automotive, aerospace, and other applications where size/lightness matters. The 10 mbit SPE varieties on the other hand, those are more closely targeted at reusing existing wiring, but they mean the sort of wiring that might have previously carried CAN or other common control bus.
- RF_Savage 3y ago
  Yep, 10Base-T1L is for upgrading those old 9600baud modbus wiring to 10mbit fullduplex.

ilyt 3y ago

> SPE is not intended for home users. Seems plenty useful if you could actually buy that stuff for the home-user-tolerable pricing. Connecting and powering 4 different devices over single ethernet cable is a very nice use case for various sensors. Hell, even for IoT, ethernet/IP is pretty simple protocol compared to BT stack, wifi+ip, or zigbee, just plug in and power your sensor/switch/relay with 2 wires directly into local ethernet network, no bridges needed, and pretty safe too vs any radio.

Dylan16807 3y ago
> Connecting and powering 4 different devices over single ethernet cable is a very nice use case for various sensors. If you have multiple clusters of devices, I can see that. But in most cases I feel like a bunch of thin cables will be significantly less hassle than trying to split things.
- ilyt 3y ago
  If you're dragging cables sure, but you might have a ethernet cable already in place. Currently option is to get a PoE-powered switch and split it off that way which is extra device to manage.
- MayeulC 3y ago
  I feel like SPE has a lot of potential for IoT, sensors, etc. Well, maybe some cheap PLC could compete too, but the multi-drop and PoDL capabilities are quite interesting for dispatching a few $3 sensors. I kind of want to run SPE over old coaxial cables that are quite commonly found in relatively recent houses. Add a cheap ESP with I2S, an I2S DAC and a speaker, and you get a smart multi-room speaker setup.
  - samtho 3y ago
    If you have coax, you already have a sufficiently shielded connection so you wont need a twisted pair. You can just modulate an RF signal down the line - I think there is even a standard for it that is not DOCSIS for sending small data packets.

LastTrain 3y ago

Rude. Clearly the GP doesn’t need that explained, they understand it & simply don’t agree that it is “simple”. And the whhyyyy was obviously rhetorical - not a call for help. Jeez.