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There are significantly more people using the other modes, especially in active navigation. For example, it’s well known that Google detects traffic through the

There are significantly more people using the other modes, especially in active navigation. For example, it’s well known that Google detects traffic through the movement of active users (there was the wagon of phones traffic jam experiment). Imagine trying to do something similar with the amount of cyclists actively using Google with the necessary privacy settings enabled on any given route. It would be noisy but possible, but then on top of that Google is extremely strict with privacy requirements (the exact opposite of what everyone on HN assumes). And once you add all of Google’s voluntary restrictions like anonymity of inferred data and such, it’s nearly impossible to gather any signal, even in major cities. Edit: By the way, the massive difference in potential users compared to all other modes is also why it’s so hard to prioritise work on cycling inside Google.

rob74 3y ago
This sounds a bit American to me honestly - I would think that in Europe (and especially in Amsterdam) there would be enough cyclists to make the data usable. OTOH, they may not have the necessary privacy settings enabled (I think that's a minority among car users too). Of course it's also a vicious circle: if Google Maps is bad for cyclists, few cyclists will be using it, so you won't get the data you need to make it better. Additionally, I think the proportion of cyclists using any kind of navigation solution is lower than with car drivers...
- matkoniecz 3y ago
  > Additionally, I think the proportion of cyclists using any kind of navigation solution is lower than with car drivers... In large part because cycling is fairly resistant to traffic jams
- johannes1234321 3y ago
  How many cyclists use Google Maps to navigate? I guess (with no true facts) most cyclists know their primary routes and when going somewhere new have a rough idea and just check for the last part. Whereas car drivers often use navigation all the time to see traffic and alternatives, which are non-issues for cyclists. Thus even with many cyclists the information they collect is less.
  - Gravityloss 3y ago
    Biking through Keskuspuisto central park, even when born and raised and lived in Helsinki for my whole life, one still needs to consult the satellite map a lot. It's a maze. The signs are roughly indicative at best. So many places look exactly the same you forget the exact crossings during the winter. You often can't see far because it's a forest.
  - xigoi 3y ago
    You think Google is watching your location only when you're using Google Maps?
    - ex-googlemaps 3y ago
      The widespread assumption that Google collects all data all the time and uses it for everything is ridiculous. There’s a labyrinth of explicit user agreements, all of which are strictly enforced, and then there are further layers of voluntary restrictions on top of that. Yes, Google might collect location data even when you’re not using Maps (there are a lot of passionate, dedicated Timeline users), but you have to have that enabled, and even then the data can only be used in certain ways.
      - frenchy 3y ago
        I believe they also collect location data when you're not using Google Maps for the purpose of updating their database of wifi locations (that they then use for location tracking). There is an agreement for this too, but the Android phones I've had regularly spam you until you agree to it.
        janc_ 3y ago
        You mean: until you accidentally click to agree because it popped up just when you wanted to click something below it. And then of course the only way to disable it again is hidden somewhere several levels deep, and comes with warnings that it will break your phone.
      - 3y ago
- ericfr11 3y ago
  The ex-Googler is most likely talking about the product as a whole, across the globe. It would be hard to justify features dedicated to a small group of users overall (with different goals/expectations), especially while keeping privacy (and data sharing). That being said, Google maps works great for cyclists in the US ...
  - bsimpson 3y ago
    It's maddening that tens of millions of users is "give up and do something else" territory for Google.
    - tuukkah 3y ago
      Supporting sustainability, also a job for someone else. We are so lucky OSM exist, helping to perhaps save the cities and the planet.
    - ex-googlemaps 3y ago
      Yes, it’s also maddening for most Googlers who are passionate about the work they want to do that would affect just tens of millions (or less). But at least it leaves room for other companies in some situations. What’s really sad is when there’s something that could only be done by Apple or Google, but it’s too small for either of them to actually do it.
      - ihatehn 3y ago
        Problem is those companies are like Nest, who made good products with love and then sold themselves to Google who then turned most Nest products into bargain-basement offerings with half the features. So the only real fix is FOSS, since everything else can be bought and killed. (FOSS can be too, but it's harder.)
mcv 3y ago
Is it that there are more cars? Because I live in Amsterdam, and there's definitely more bikes than cars here, yet bicycle support still sucks. Although it's possible few cyclists use Google Maps because a) it's bad, b) they don't need to, and c) you need a special clip to use your smartphone live on your bike (though that's also true for cars).
- scatters 3y ago
  Most modern cars have a center console with Android Auto, so you just plug in your phone to USB and it takes over navigation, communication and entertainment.
  - mcv 3y ago
    I guess my car isn't that modern. Our car nav is okayish, but the ui is crap and the maps are outdated.
MayeulC 3y ago
I don't think it's necessary to jump right to data collection, the routing algorithms and incomplete maps are the issue. Of course, you'd need additional data about bike lanes, etc (which could come from crowdsourced data? Maybe that's what you are alluding to?). As it is, offline routers such as Brouter and OSMAnd do a much better job, and it's pretty easy to convince other cyclists to use them. Traffic jams are almost never an issue when biking - heavy car or bike traffic can slow you down, but by that point you have at least the same density as car traffic jams for data collection...
culi 3y ago
What exactly makes the challenge of cycle so much harder than walking? Also is there really 0 ways you could use pedestrian mode data for biking directions? Even if marginally or to confirm hypotheses mostly based on cycling data Lastly, is there anything stopping you from contributing potential innovations to open source alternatives?
- chefandy 3y ago
  In most densely populated areas near where I live in southern New England, bikes are vehicles that, in most cases, must operate on the roadway. I'd get a ticket for riding a bike across a pedestrian bridge or down an urban sidewalk.

rob74 3y ago

This sounds a bit American to me honestly - I would think that in Europe (and especially in Amsterdam) there would be enough cyclists to make the data usable. OTOH, they may not have the necessary privacy settings enabled (I think that's a minority among car users too). Of course it's also a vicious circle: if Google Maps is bad for cyclists, few cyclists will be using it, so you won't get the data you need to make it better. Additionally, I think the proportion of cyclists using any kind of navigation solution is lower than with car drivers...

matkoniecz 3y ago
> Additionally, I think the proportion of cyclists using any kind of navigation solution is lower than with car drivers... In large part because cycling is fairly resistant to traffic jams
johannes1234321 3y ago
How many cyclists use Google Maps to navigate? I guess (with no true facts) most cyclists know their primary routes and when going somewhere new have a rough idea and just check for the last part. Whereas car drivers often use navigation all the time to see traffic and alternatives, which are non-issues for cyclists. Thus even with many cyclists the information they collect is less.
- Gravityloss 3y ago
  Biking through Keskuspuisto central park, even when born and raised and lived in Helsinki for my whole life, one still needs to consult the satellite map a lot. It's a maze. The signs are roughly indicative at best. So many places look exactly the same you forget the exact crossings during the winter. You often can't see far because it's a forest.
- xigoi 3y ago
  You think Google is watching your location only when you're using Google Maps?
  - ex-googlemaps 3y ago
    The widespread assumption that Google collects all data all the time and uses it for everything is ridiculous. There’s a labyrinth of explicit user agreements, all of which are strictly enforced, and then there are further layers of voluntary restrictions on top of that. Yes, Google might collect location data even when you’re not using Maps (there are a lot of passionate, dedicated Timeline users), but you have to have that enabled, and even then the data can only be used in certain ways.
    - frenchy 3y ago
      I believe they also collect location data when you're not using Google Maps for the purpose of updating their database of wifi locations (that they then use for location tracking). There is an agreement for this too, but the Android phones I've had regularly spam you until you agree to it.
      - janc_ 3y ago
        You mean: until you accidentally click to agree because it popped up just when you wanted to click something below it. And then of course the only way to disable it again is hidden somewhere several levels deep, and comes with warnings that it will break your phone.
    - 3y ago
ericfr11 3y ago
The ex-Googler is most likely talking about the product as a whole, across the globe. It would be hard to justify features dedicated to a small group of users overall (with different goals/expectations), especially while keeping privacy (and data sharing). That being said, Google maps works great for cyclists in the US ...
- bsimpson 3y ago
  It's maddening that tens of millions of users is "give up and do something else" territory for Google.
  - tuukkah 3y ago
    Supporting sustainability, also a job for someone else. We are so lucky OSM exist, helping to perhaps save the cities and the planet.
  - ex-googlemaps 3y ago
    Yes, it’s also maddening for most Googlers who are passionate about the work they want to do that would affect just tens of millions (or less). But at least it leaves room for other companies in some situations. What’s really sad is when there’s something that could only be done by Apple or Google, but it’s too small for either of them to actually do it.
    - ihatehn 3y ago
      Problem is those companies are like Nest, who made good products with love and then sold themselves to Google who then turned most Nest products into bargain-basement offerings with half the features. So the only real fix is FOSS, since everything else can be bought and killed. (FOSS can be too, but it's harder.)

mcv 3y ago

Is it that there are more cars? Because I live in Amsterdam, and there's definitely more bikes than cars here, yet bicycle support still sucks. Although it's possible few cyclists use Google Maps because a) it's bad, b) they don't need to, and c) you need a special clip to use your smartphone live on your bike (though that's also true for cars).

scatters 3y ago
Most modern cars have a center console with Android Auto, so you just plug in your phone to USB and it takes over navigation, communication and entertainment.
- mcv 3y ago
  I guess my car isn't that modern. Our car nav is okayish, but the ui is crap and the maps are outdated.

MayeulC 3y ago

I don't think it's necessary to jump right to data collection, the routing algorithms and incomplete maps are the issue. Of course, you'd need additional data about bike lanes, etc (which could come from crowdsourced data? Maybe that's what you are alluding to?). As it is, offline routers such as Brouter and OSMAnd do a much better job, and it's pretty easy to convince other cyclists to use them. Traffic jams are almost never an issue when biking - heavy car or bike traffic can slow you down, but by that point you have at least the same density as car traffic jams for data collection...

culi 3y ago

What exactly makes the challenge of cycle so much harder than walking? Also is there really 0 ways you could use pedestrian mode data for biking directions? Even if marginally or to confirm hypotheses mostly based on cycling data Lastly, is there anything stopping you from contributing potential innovations to open source alternatives?

chefandy 3y ago
In most densely populated areas near where I live in southern New England, bikes are vehicles that, in most cases, must operate on the roadway. I'd get a ticket for riding a bike across a pedestrian bridge or down an urban sidewalk.