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The main issue that is not addressed is that students need points to pass their subjects and get a high school diploma. LLMs are a magical shortcut to these poi

The main issue that is not addressed is that students need points to pass their subjects and get a high school diploma. LLMs are a magical shortcut to these points for many students, and therefore very tempting to use, for a number of normal reasons (time-shortage, laziness, fatigue, not comprehending, insecurity, parental pressure, status, etc.). This is the current, urgent problem with ChatGPT in schools that is not being addressed well. Anyone who has spent some time with ChatGPT knows that the 'show your work' (plan, outline, draft, etc.) argument is moot, because AI can retroactively produce all of these earlier drafts and plans.

phalangion 3y ago
I suspect it’s not being addressed well because it’s one of the fundamental challenges of school in the first place. For many, assessment and grades are the end goal, and any learning that happens is secondary.
- blueboo 3y ago
  The status quo is a miserable mess, but consider “assessment and grades” is the best apparent evidence of ultimate-goal-“learning”. Is that not reasonable for people who pay for education to ask for? If it is reasonable, then the problem is likely the form of evidence and not its requirement se de
  - sdenton4 3y ago
    What barbarous society makes people pay for education?
    - qwerpy 3y ago
      What utopia has teachers who teach for free and buildings that materialize from thin air?
    - losvedir 3y ago
      Every society since Adam & Eve when knowledge grew on trees.
    - zaat 3y ago
      Every society where's education is available. There are different approaches to who and how to cover the bills, but someone must do, if no one else is covering the costs, the educators do.
    - kuchenbecker 3y ago
      One whose residents value continued education differently from each other and thus present the costs to the individual to make their own decision. What kind of world makes the poor person working a manual job pay for someone else going to college?
      - johnnyworker 3y ago
        Then tax the rich properly, and they'll bear the lion's share of anything public funded. Ruining public schooling by under funding and having expensive private education for those that can afford it is just the neoliberal agenda. If there were no private schools, if they were illegal, along with home schooling -- not saying they should be, but if they were -- the wealthy would pump funds into the public schooling system before you can say "fuck you got mine". (Kinda like no private bunkers would mean a sudden interest in mitigating climate change globally and for everyone, hah)
    - blueboo 3y ago
      Are educators not paid? From whence come those wages I only meant to acknowledge the societal investment, not imply private education
jorgemf 3y ago
I think your argument is similar to the one we had with the calculators and later with Internet. I think ChatGPT is another tool. For sure there is going to be lazy people who use it and won't learn anything, but it also sure it is going to be a boost for so many people. We will adapt.
- bloppe 3y ago
  Calculators solve problems that have exactly one correct answer. You cannot plagiarize a calculator. They are easy to incorporate into a math curriculum while ensuring that it stays educationally valuable to the students. LLM's, the internet, even physical books all tend to deal primarily with subjective matters that can be plagiarized. They're not fundamentally different from each other; the more advanced technologies like search engines or LLM's simply make it easier to find relevant content that can be copied. They actually remove the need for students to think for themselves in a way calculators never did. LLM's just make it so easy to commit plagiarism that the system is starting to break down. Plagiarism was always a problem, but it used to be rare enough that the education system could sort-of tolerate it.
  - argiopetech 3y ago
    I argue that calculators are overtly harmful to arithmetic prowess. In summary, they atrophy mental arithmetic ability and discourage practice of basic skills. It pains me (though that's my problem) to see people pull out a calculator (worse, a phone) to solve e.g., a multiplication of two single digit numbers.
    - bloppe 3y ago
      Sure, calculators made people worse at mental arithmetic, but arithmetic is mechanical. It's helpful sometimes, but it's not intellectually stimulating and it doesn't require much intelligence. Mathematicians don't give a shit about arithmetic. They're busy thinking about much more important things. Synthesizing an original thesis, like what people are supposed to do in writing essays, is totally different. It's a fundamental life skill people will need in all sorts of contexts, and using an LLM to do it for you takes away your intellectual agency in a way that using a calculator doesn't.
hyperthesis 3y ago
\devil's advocate: If the augmented-student pair performs at the required level, what's the problem? The test should be how good they are at using LLMs. Tools should be absorbed. Similar to today, when grades are a proxy for ability, but private tutoring puts an average student in the 2% (Bloom's 2σ problem) for that stage, but doesn't boost the student's general intelligence for the next stage. Also, hard work, self-discipline, and focus will increase grades but not GI. (Of course, stidents do learn that specific stage, necessary for the next stage, so this criticism is just for use as a proxy). We might say what is really be evaluated is the ability to get good grades (duh) - whether through wealth or work. The same argument can be applied to LLMs. Using they is an important ability... so let's test that. This is the future. Similar to calculators and open-book exams.
- bko 3y ago
  > We might say what is really be evaluated is the ability to get good grades (duh) - whether through wealth or work. Isn't that a good thing? Grades shouldn't be an IQ test. It's pretty much meaningless if you're not significantly below average or using it for super specialized tasks. Getting good grades means you can sit your ass in a seat (be it at a public library or a private tutor) and learn enough to do well on some task. Yes, good grades doesn't mean you would be necessarily be good at some task. But it shows you can succeed in something that requires effort.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- Gimpei 3y ago
  Writing is as much about organizing your thoughts and learning how to build an argument as it is about putting words on the page. It is about learning how to think. If students rely on an LLM, they will never get a chance to practice this essential skill, and, in my opinion, will be a lot dumber as a result.
  - analog31 3y ago
    My thoughts are along similar lines: People learn to think, to inquire, to persuade, etc. We don't know precisely how. Maybe it's correlated to education, but even the strength of a causal link is debatable. I certainly don't oppose reforming contemporary education, but at the same time, letting it be replaced by something else by default because that thing has exponentially more engagement power invokes Chesterton's Fence. I'm not sure we even know what we're giving up.
gonzo41 3y ago
I think there'll be a return of oral tests. Looks like a whole generation are going to get good at doing hand written essays and white board math and coding from day 1.
djoldman 3y ago
Not sure what the problem is: just have a test every friday in class... no computers. Make them 50% of the grade.
- theprivacydad 3y ago
  That won't work in many national and international systems, due to externally prescribed exam or coursework conditions.
qwerty456127 3y ago
> The main issue that is not addressed is that students need points to pass their subjects and get a high school diploma. This is a solution (evidently imperfect and arguably obsolete) the education system uses to address the problem of proving the fact a student has gained desirable knowedge and experience. It can and should be deprecated altogether once we come up with a better solution to this. And we certainly can. For example, we can invent ana AI which would interview a student/candidate a way, proven (by numerous comparisions to their actual performance measured with other methods) to estimate their level of expertise and capability with sufficient degree of precision. In case such a new way proves reliable and efficient we can even decouple expertise measurement and actual education on a mass scale then - let people gain knowledge whatever an alternative way they want and can, then just come and pass the test to receive an accredited degree. This way we can automate production of unlimited stream of certified experts.
- michaelt 3y ago
  I'm not saying it's a good or bad idea - but the idea of a future where an interview with a computer judges people's ability and decides whether they get to go to college or not sounds like something from Futurama.
  - qwerty456127 3y ago
    I can see no problem here if it is objectively proven to be capable of reliably confirming whether a candidate is an expert. Unless you artificialy rule that candidates can only apply once. For cases when a candidate emerges who believes he somehow really can't pass the AI-powered test despite being perfectly competent there obviously should be fallback alternatives available, i.e. a jury of experts who would talk to him and tell whether there is a chance his claim is legitimate or he's just kidding.
- theprivacydad 3y ago
  It's a good idea, but doesn't solve the problem of the student then using AI to answer the questions in the interview. We're back to square one.
afpx 3y ago
When the calculator came out, people had the same worries.

phalangion 3y ago

I suspect it’s not being addressed well because it’s one of the fundamental challenges of school in the first place. For many, assessment and grades are the end goal, and any learning that happens is secondary.

blueboo 3y ago
The status quo is a miserable mess, but consider “assessment and grades” is the best apparent evidence of ultimate-goal-“learning”. Is that not reasonable for people who pay for education to ask for? If it is reasonable, then the problem is likely the form of evidence and not its requirement se de
- sdenton4 3y ago
  What barbarous society makes people pay for education?
  - qwerpy 3y ago
    What utopia has teachers who teach for free and buildings that materialize from thin air?
  - losvedir 3y ago
    Every society since Adam & Eve when knowledge grew on trees.
  - zaat 3y ago
    Every society where's education is available. There are different approaches to who and how to cover the bills, but someone must do, if no one else is covering the costs, the educators do.
  - kuchenbecker 3y ago
    One whose residents value continued education differently from each other and thus present the costs to the individual to make their own decision. What kind of world makes the poor person working a manual job pay for someone else going to college?
    - johnnyworker 3y ago
      Then tax the rich properly, and they'll bear the lion's share of anything public funded. Ruining public schooling by under funding and having expensive private education for those that can afford it is just the neoliberal agenda. If there were no private schools, if they were illegal, along with home schooling -- not saying they should be, but if they were -- the wealthy would pump funds into the public schooling system before you can say "fuck you got mine". (Kinda like no private bunkers would mean a sudden interest in mitigating climate change globally and for everyone, hah)
  - blueboo 3y ago
    Are educators not paid? From whence come those wages I only meant to acknowledge the societal investment, not imply private education

jorgemf 3y ago

I think your argument is similar to the one we had with the calculators and later with Internet. I think ChatGPT is another tool. For sure there is going to be lazy people who use it and won't learn anything, but it also sure it is going to be a boost for so many people. We will adapt.

bloppe 3y ago
Calculators solve problems that have exactly one correct answer. You cannot plagiarize a calculator. They are easy to incorporate into a math curriculum while ensuring that it stays educationally valuable to the students. LLM's, the internet, even physical books all tend to deal primarily with subjective matters that can be plagiarized. They're not fundamentally different from each other; the more advanced technologies like search engines or LLM's simply make it easier to find relevant content that can be copied. They actually remove the need for students to think for themselves in a way calculators never did. LLM's just make it so easy to commit plagiarism that the system is starting to break down. Plagiarism was always a problem, but it used to be rare enough that the education system could sort-of tolerate it.
- argiopetech 3y ago
  I argue that calculators are overtly harmful to arithmetic prowess. In summary, they atrophy mental arithmetic ability and discourage practice of basic skills. It pains me (though that's my problem) to see people pull out a calculator (worse, a phone) to solve e.g., a multiplication of two single digit numbers.
  - bloppe 3y ago
    Sure, calculators made people worse at mental arithmetic, but arithmetic is mechanical. It's helpful sometimes, but it's not intellectually stimulating and it doesn't require much intelligence. Mathematicians don't give a shit about arithmetic. They're busy thinking about much more important things. Synthesizing an original thesis, like what people are supposed to do in writing essays, is totally different. It's a fundamental life skill people will need in all sorts of contexts, and using an LLM to do it for you takes away your intellectual agency in a way that using a calculator doesn't.

hyperthesis 3y ago

\devil's advocate: If the augmented-student pair performs at the required level, what's the problem? The test should be how good they are at using LLMs. Tools should be absorbed. Similar to today, when grades are a proxy for ability, but private tutoring puts an average student in the 2% (Bloom's 2σ problem) for that stage, but doesn't boost the student's general intelligence for the next stage. Also, hard work, self-discipline, and focus will increase grades but not GI. (Of course, stidents do learn that specific stage, necessary for the next stage, so this criticism is just for use as a proxy). We might say what is really be evaluated is the ability to get good grades (duh) - whether through wealth or work. The same argument can be applied to LLMs. Using they is an important ability... so let's test that. This is the future. Similar to calculators and open-book exams.

bko 3y ago
> We might say what is really be evaluated is the ability to get good grades (duh) - whether through wealth or work. Isn't that a good thing? Grades shouldn't be an IQ test. It's pretty much meaningless if you're not significantly below average or using it for super specialized tasks. Getting good grades means you can sit your ass in a seat (be it at a public library or a private tutor) and learn enough to do well on some task. Yes, good grades doesn't mean you would be necessarily be good at some task. But it shows you can succeed in something that requires effort.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Gimpei 3y ago
Writing is as much about organizing your thoughts and learning how to build an argument as it is about putting words on the page. It is about learning how to think. If students rely on an LLM, they will never get a chance to practice this essential skill, and, in my opinion, will be a lot dumber as a result.
- analog31 3y ago
  My thoughts are along similar lines: People learn to think, to inquire, to persuade, etc. We don't know precisely how. Maybe it's correlated to education, but even the strength of a causal link is debatable. I certainly don't oppose reforming contemporary education, but at the same time, letting it be replaced by something else by default because that thing has exponentially more engagement power invokes Chesterton's Fence. I'm not sure we even know what we're giving up.

gonzo41 3y ago

I think there'll be a return of oral tests. Looks like a whole generation are going to get good at doing hand written essays and white board math and coding from day 1.

djoldman 3y ago

Not sure what the problem is: just have a test every friday in class... no computers. Make them 50% of the grade.

theprivacydad 3y ago
That won't work in many national and international systems, due to externally prescribed exam or coursework conditions.

qwerty456127 3y ago

> The main issue that is not addressed is that students need points to pass their subjects and get a high school diploma. This is a solution (evidently imperfect and arguably obsolete) the education system uses to address the problem of proving the fact a student has gained desirable knowedge and experience. It can and should be deprecated altogether once we come up with a better solution to this. And we certainly can. For example, we can invent ana AI which would interview a student/candidate a way, proven (by numerous comparisions to their actual performance measured with other methods) to estimate their level of expertise and capability with sufficient degree of precision. In case such a new way proves reliable and efficient we can even decouple expertise measurement and actual education on a mass scale then - let people gain knowledge whatever an alternative way they want and can, then just come and pass the test to receive an accredited degree. This way we can automate production of unlimited stream of certified experts.

michaelt 3y ago
I'm not saying it's a good or bad idea - but the idea of a future where an interview with a computer judges people's ability and decides whether they get to go to college or not sounds like something from Futurama.
- qwerty456127 3y ago
  I can see no problem here if it is objectively proven to be capable of reliably confirming whether a candidate is an expert. Unless you artificialy rule that candidates can only apply once. For cases when a candidate emerges who believes he somehow really can't pass the AI-powered test despite being perfectly competent there obviously should be fallback alternatives available, i.e. a jury of experts who would talk to him and tell whether there is a chance his claim is legitimate or he's just kidding.
theprivacydad 3y ago
It's a good idea, but doesn't solve the problem of the student then using AI to answer the questions in the interview. We're back to square one.

afpx 3y ago

When the calculator came out, people had the same worries.