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Are you saying you don't want to work with the people who use praise w/ direction? That is my assumption about what you meant given that it seems like the contr

Are you saying you don't want to work with the people who use praise w/ direction? That is my assumption about what you meant given that it seems like the contrary opinion and thus the reason for replying. If that's the case, care to elaborate why you don't like that style?

camhart 3y ago
Because its confusing. Don't say that you like something when you don't. It's a failure to communicate.
function_seven 3y ago
I'll share my reason. It's phony as hell. If someone is legitimately angry or disappointed with my performance, just say it. Don't construct a "compliment sandwich" and patronize me with that.
- jasonlotito 3y ago
  Considering this is about how you communicate with others, you are saying people should consider the way you want to be communicated with, but you should be able to ignore how others want to be communicated with? That just makes you a disappointing, inefficient hypocrite.
  - function_seven 3y ago
    No, I didn't say any of that. I would like people to be straight with me. I try to be straight with them. Golden Rule and all of that, right?
    - gretch 3y ago
      > I would like people to be straight with me But you understand that people can genuinely like you right? Perhaps that person is trying to not throw the baby out with the bath water. “Hey I’m glad you patched the bug, but can you give the SREs a heads up next time? They p0’ed on an expected traffic spike” The person is actually happy with you for fixing a bug. They don’t want to you take away that in the future, to not take initiative and fix bugs.
      - qwytw 3y ago
        "Hey I’m glad you patched the bug, but.." To me that just sounds passive aggressive and sort of like "you should mind your own business". I'd feel better you if someone just told me: "I saw you patched a bug, could you do X" or even just "can you give the SREs a heads up next time?" alone. Then again I'm used to a culture where any praise is ussually implicit and criticism tends to be quite explicit so it's easy to interpret words like "glad" etc. as insincere by default without even wanting too..
        anon84873628 3y ago
        Because the example is oversimplified for the sake of HN commentary. In the real world it goes more like this: "Hey, I saw you patched that bug that was causing traffics spikes. That's awesome work and I appreciate your proactivity! The Ops team thought we had to work late tonight to implement mitigations for the problem. In fact, it looks like we had a communication breakdown and they didn't realize you had fixed the issue until 6 hours later. In the future do you think you could let them know when this sort of problem is fixed, just to make sure we're all on the same page? We'll have to look at a solution for automated alerts too -- maybe an integration with the ticket system or build system. Do you have any ideas for that so we don't have to rely on manual communication? We're moving so fast that it's hard for everyone to keep up! Thanks again for the great work."
      - function_seven 3y ago
        > But you understand that people can genuinely like you right? Yeah, I do. And when I get genuine compliments, I like them! But it's obvious when someone consistently prefaces their statements with "softening" compliments. When they're "deploying" a "communications strategy." Talk to me like a real person, please. It will make it easier for those compliments to land when recipients know they're real. But if you're the type to always lead with one, then they're all worthless. You're just a happy-talker. Your praise is empty.
        trifurcate 3y ago
        I always have doubts about others' work and suggestions on how they could do it better. To avoid constantly dominating others, I either have to shut my mouth or try to be more accommodating in how I deliver my feedback. I do a mix of both, but if you tell me to be straight with you, then I'll be straight with you. Especially in large corporate organizations where there are vast differences in how people communicate and take input, and you talk to too many people in a given day to really get close with any of them, it requires a handshake to know that I can always indicate my roughly unfiltered technical opinion to you and that you'll take it in stride, and if you feel strongly about it, you'll have the confidence to shoot my idea down without me having to give you an opening by posing my suggestion as a question.
skrebbel 3y ago
Im not the GP but it hides all clarity wrt how important the colleague thinks the “directions” that the praise came along with are. If I accept the praise but dismiss the directions, am I being an asshole? Or am I being subordinate? Am I ignoring a direct order? The boss was in the room and they didn’t object to the directions! What does it all mean? All this is a level of 4D interpersonal chess that you’re forcing me to play that could simply be avoided if you said that you think its worth changing it like so and so because such and such.
- anon84873628 3y ago
  Fair point. I think it comes down to knowing your audience, which is always the most fundamental and important part. Coworkers with lots of rapport can be very direct with each other. Or a neurodivergent person who struggles with social/verbal cues may be much better served with succinct direct feedback (and likewise not feel the sting and demotivation that the initial strategy is intended to avoid)
edgarvaldes 3y ago
>I really liked how you tackled this Because you open the communication with a lie.
- koliber 3y ago
  Such communication style can work well, but only if it is genuine. When people do mess up, there is often something good in the mix. It’s possible to lead with a compliment to point out what was done well, and follow up with constructive criticism. It’s about style. When done well, you don’t notice it and you like it. If done awkwardly or stiffly, it feels fake, patronizing, and disingenuous.
  - qwytw 3y ago
    The shit sandwich approach... But yeah if you're a person who's only capable of complaining and criticizing others (assuming it's perfectly legitimate/reasonable) you might struggle communicating with most people who don't know you really well/are used to different culture.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- gretch 3y ago
  Well, only if it is a lie. The example is a hypothetical story so we can read into it whatever we want. There are ways to like someone’s work, even if you don’t think it’s complete or optimal. For example, I think a huge part of getting a job done is just having someone take initiative and at least try, as opposed to waiting for someone else to start them off. The line might mean “I’m glad you started us down this road…”

camhart 3y ago

Because its confusing. Don't say that you like something when you don't. It's a failure to communicate.

function_seven 3y ago

I'll share my reason. It's phony as hell. If someone is legitimately angry or disappointed with my performance, just say it. Don't construct a "compliment sandwich" and patronize me with that.

jasonlotito 3y ago
Considering this is about how you communicate with others, you are saying people should consider the way you want to be communicated with, but you should be able to ignore how others want to be communicated with? That just makes you a disappointing, inefficient hypocrite.
- function_seven 3y ago
  No, I didn't say any of that. I would like people to be straight with me. I try to be straight with them. Golden Rule and all of that, right?
  - gretch 3y ago
    > I would like people to be straight with me But you understand that people can genuinely like you right? Perhaps that person is trying to not throw the baby out with the bath water. “Hey I’m glad you patched the bug, but can you give the SREs a heads up next time? They p0’ed on an expected traffic spike” The person is actually happy with you for fixing a bug. They don’t want to you take away that in the future, to not take initiative and fix bugs.
    - qwytw 3y ago
      "Hey I’m glad you patched the bug, but.." To me that just sounds passive aggressive and sort of like "you should mind your own business". I'd feel better you if someone just told me: "I saw you patched a bug, could you do X" or even just "can you give the SREs a heads up next time?" alone. Then again I'm used to a culture where any praise is ussually implicit and criticism tends to be quite explicit so it's easy to interpret words like "glad" etc. as insincere by default without even wanting too..
      - anon84873628 3y ago
        Because the example is oversimplified for the sake of HN commentary. In the real world it goes more like this: "Hey, I saw you patched that bug that was causing traffics spikes. That's awesome work and I appreciate your proactivity! The Ops team thought we had to work late tonight to implement mitigations for the problem. In fact, it looks like we had a communication breakdown and they didn't realize you had fixed the issue until 6 hours later. In the future do you think you could let them know when this sort of problem is fixed, just to make sure we're all on the same page? We'll have to look at a solution for automated alerts too -- maybe an integration with the ticket system or build system. Do you have any ideas for that so we don't have to rely on manual communication? We're moving so fast that it's hard for everyone to keep up! Thanks again for the great work."
    - function_seven 3y ago
      > But you understand that people can genuinely like you right? Yeah, I do. And when I get genuine compliments, I like them! But it's obvious when someone consistently prefaces their statements with "softening" compliments. When they're "deploying" a "communications strategy." Talk to me like a real person, please. It will make it easier for those compliments to land when recipients know they're real. But if you're the type to always lead with one, then they're all worthless. You're just a happy-talker. Your praise is empty.
      - trifurcate 3y ago
        I always have doubts about others' work and suggestions on how they could do it better. To avoid constantly dominating others, I either have to shut my mouth or try to be more accommodating in how I deliver my feedback. I do a mix of both, but if you tell me to be straight with you, then I'll be straight with you. Especially in large corporate organizations where there are vast differences in how people communicate and take input, and you talk to too many people in a given day to really get close with any of them, it requires a handshake to know that I can always indicate my roughly unfiltered technical opinion to you and that you'll take it in stride, and if you feel strongly about it, you'll have the confidence to shoot my idea down without me having to give you an opening by posing my suggestion as a question.

skrebbel 3y ago

Im not the GP but it hides all clarity wrt how important the colleague thinks the “directions” that the praise came along with are. If I accept the praise but dismiss the directions, am I being an asshole? Or am I being subordinate? Am I ignoring a direct order? The boss was in the room and they didn’t object to the directions! What does it all mean? All this is a level of 4D interpersonal chess that you’re forcing me to play that could simply be avoided if you said that you think its worth changing it like so and so because such and such.

anon84873628 3y ago
Fair point. I think it comes down to knowing your audience, which is always the most fundamental and important part. Coworkers with lots of rapport can be very direct with each other. Or a neurodivergent person who struggles with social/verbal cues may be much better served with succinct direct feedback (and likewise not feel the sting and demotivation that the initial strategy is intended to avoid)

edgarvaldes 3y ago

>I really liked how you tackled this Because you open the communication with a lie.

koliber 3y ago
Such communication style can work well, but only if it is genuine. When people do mess up, there is often something good in the mix. It’s possible to lead with a compliment to point out what was done well, and follow up with constructive criticism. It’s about style. When done well, you don’t notice it and you like it. If done awkwardly or stiffly, it feels fake, patronizing, and disingenuous.
- qwytw 3y ago
  The shit sandwich approach... But yeah if you're a person who's only capable of complaining and criticizing others (assuming it's perfectly legitimate/reasonable) you might struggle communicating with most people who don't know you really well/are used to different culture.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
gretch 3y ago
Well, only if it is a lie. The example is a hypothetical story so we can read into it whatever we want. There are ways to like someone’s work, even if you don’t think it’s complete or optimal. For example, I think a huge part of getting a job done is just having someone take initiative and at least try, as opposed to waiting for someone else to start them off. The line might mean “I’m glad you started us down this road…”