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>“I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” That crosses the line by lying, I thi

• jlund-molfese 3y ago
  I like to say something like "Hey, I realize you put a lot of hard work into X, but I think Y would be more efficient and save us all time in the long run!" Because then you're being totally truthful (assuming they actually are putting in effort) while still not coming across too directly.
  • sokoloff 3y ago
    "It's impressive how much time you were able to waste while only accomplishing X", but said a lot more politely.
    • gabereiser 3y ago
      This is how that would come across to most people, yes. Praise should never be a time to display your intellectual superiority.
      • deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
• thenose 3y ago
  Not at all. The trick is to force yourself to find something about their approach that you liked. There's almost always something likable. It's also the trick to being liked in general. Not everyone cares about that, but I've found it more of an asset than a distraction.
  • user_named 3y ago
    No, it's absolutely horrible. It means you think the person you're talking to is dumb and can be manipulated with this phrasing. They see through you.
    • tines 3y ago
      It's not about phrasing, it's about being genuine and also choosing to have a certain perspective which builds the other person up. There's nothing to see through.
      • ragona 3y ago
        > it's about being genuine I think this is an incredibly important lesson. Don't lie, _actually_ find something good to say. It's a goddamned super power, and it's also very good for your own mental health.
      • stcroixx 3y ago
        It’s out of context. Not all adults need or want other adults to ‘build them up’. If you start with some unrelated positive thing, it will be recognized as a manipulation technique because context tells us there’s no other reason to raise the point.
        • tines 3y ago
          > If you start with some unrelated positive thing, it will be recognized as a manipulation technique because context tells us there’s no other reason to raise the point. That's true, but nobody (that I saw) suggested saying things that don't fit the context. > Not all adults need or want other adults to ‘build them up’. Everyone wants respect and for people to be "on their side," and that's what we're talking about here. If someone doesn't care about your opinion, they won't mind you treating them respectfully, but if someone does care, then they'll mind when you don't. So why not just treat everyone respectfully?
    • OmarShehata 3y ago
• rqtwteye 3y ago
  “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” I hate this because it’s usually just a shit sandwich. “Great work. Actually it sucked. Keep going.”
  • gabereiser 3y ago
    “Great work” is an outcome. “Great effort” is an effort praise. It can still suck and you can still have great effort. You can’t have Great Work and it sucks.
    • freedomben 3y ago
      what's the difference between "Great work" and "I really liked how you tackled this" ? I assume it's a sports analogy for american football or similar. If you try to tackle an opposing player and you miss or do a bad job, "I really liked how you tackled <player>" is clearly talking about the work, not the effort. If you were talking about the effort, it should be something like, "that was a good attempt!" It's kind of like, "Nice shot!" when the person actually missed the goal. It just doesn't make sense.
      • hotnfresh 3y ago
        Webster’s 1913 (as in, the 1913 edition of the dictionary) relates this sense as “grappling with”, as in wrestling, and provides an example from a Dublin University publication to illustrate this exact idiomatic usage we’re discussing. I’d say it’s not derived from American football.
        • freedomben 3y ago
          thank you for sharing that (truly that is interesting data), but how do you know that GP was using the Webster's 1913 definition?
          • joshuamorton 3y ago
            Because "tackling a problem" is about the approach. That's how the phrase is commonly understood. The Webster's reference is just backup. Dictionary.com provides "Make determined efforts to deal with (a problem or difficult task)." As the first verb form, before the football/rugby definition. Further, the hn guidelines suggest that even if there was more ambiguity, we should presume the strongest interpretation.
• cratermoon 3y ago
  Have you never had a co-worker do something in a way you appreciate for it's skillfulness but doesn't quite address what you asked them to help with? Have you ever put extra effort into something and done your best, only to have someone ignore your accomplishments and focus on what you did wrong? You don't have to like the result to like the co-workers initiative.
• gabereiser 3y ago
  Let’s break down your version: “I think it would be better if…” You start with an opinion. That’s going to cause any listener to put up their guard. It’s the beginning of any sort of confrontations. By saying “Thank you for the effort…” you are acknowledging the work they put into it and showing empathy by seeing their work they have done. If it isn’t correct, either it should have been course corrected by management or volunteer for the next one. If you think something should be done a certain away across the board, create a brown bag or lunch and learn where you evangelize it and get consensus. You aren’t lying when you give praise about someone’s effort (unless they gave none, in which case why are you praising to begin with?), you would be lying if you said “You did a great job” when the solution is potentially tech debt for later. It’s a matter of communication and human behavior. You wouldn’t praise someone by saying “I think it could be better”.
  • freedomben 3y ago
    Your second example is a good one and I agree is a more effective approach to communicating. But GP was right. There's a huge difference between your first example: > “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” and the second: > “Thank you for the effort…” The first is most likely a lie, otherwise you wouldn't be offering an alternative suggestion! If somebody said that to me I'd feel extremely patronized and would consider that person very disingenuous.
    • gabereiser 3y ago
      Offering a different point of view helps either confirm their decisions or open up avenues for improvement of their work. It’s not about telling “this is how I would do it” but rather “Have you thought about other options and approaches? What do you think? Why did you choose this route?” helps the individual weigh the pros and cons with each. It should never be an opportunity for you to chime in with how you would have done it (even if you would have done it that way). You simply want to expose the other possibilities so that they are aware of them and haven’t overlooked a potential savings or killer-feature.
      • 3y ago
• darkerside 3y ago
  Can you help me understand your intent with phrasing your response that way? I can see it coming off as challenging instead of collaborative, but if there's something I'm not seeing, I'd like to know. Or, taking your cue, I could just say, "I think it would be better if you didn't immediately presume that you knew better than the person who actually spent hours working on the problem". And, for those who say they like the direct approach in the second paragraph better, I don't disagree that it's a better response to a flip HN comment. When you're reacting to something someone has put serious personal effort into, a bit of tact goes a long way.
• groby_b 3y ago
  If you struggle with "I really liked" because you really didn't, I'd suggest the value-neutral "That's an interesting approach!" followed by "have you thought about X"/"how does it compare to <other approach>"/"how did you land on it". You're still starting from a positive point of view for the recipient, which makes them more open to actually engaging with you. Without having to "pretend to smile and praise". It's an interesting choice alright. If it weren't, you wouldn't be talking about it.
  • whatshisface 3y ago
    It's still not an interesting approach unless it interested you... There are no positive sounding meaningless adjectives because positive and meaningless are conflicting attributes.
    • groby_b 3y ago
      If you're dead-set on being somebody nobody wants to work with, sure, keep ignoring that people have feelings. It won't work particularly well for you in the long run, but you do you.
  • gabereiser 3y ago
    Would you praise someone by saying “That’s an interesting approach?” Or is that just a comment on their outcome?
    • groby_b 3y ago
      I'm not going to praise an outcome that's clearly suboptimal, but "that's interesting" still beats beating them over the head with "well, I'm always scrupulously honest, I don't care about anybody's feelings, your stuff sucks". There's always effort-based praise if you want to praise.
• eschneider 3y ago
  Very often they _have_ thought about the other approach and rejected it for reasons. When you go into something like this open minded, you might come out learning something new. :)
• grey-area 3y ago
  Your assertion that this sort of linguistic hedge is a lie is itself based on a few false assumptions: 1. That there is one correct way to do something 2. That you know that way, and they don't 3. That they didn't consider and disregard that way in early planning due to something you're unaware of What you see as lying is intended to avoid an arrogant disregard for their time and thought, and also to avoid having ego dictate the conversation rather than ideas.
  • whatshisface 3y ago
    "I think..." is a hedge, "I really liked," (when you didn't) is a lie.
    • johnnyanmac 3y ago
      But what if you did? No one is saying to lie. If you genuinely cannot find any good out of the code review (considerations for performance, easy to read, functional solution, time to execute, ability to reach out to proper peers), then maybe they shouldn't have been hired to begin with? Even a well picked intern these days should have one of those qualities.
      • staunton 3y ago
        So, that would be "I think you did it wrong; of course, I can't claim to know that objectively; anyway, I really liked the way you did it"...
        • johnnyanmac 3y ago
          You sound wishy washy and you need to review your requirements, and/or rope in someone who does knows how to do it right in that case. There is nothing wrong with "this doesn't feel right but I don't have the capacity to tell". If you aren't qualified for that sort of code review, find the proper peer who can.
          • 3y ago
• ajuc 3y ago
  Interpretation depends on the culture. In UK this is basically "you fucked up", in Germany this means "you did great with small nuances" :)
• matwood 3y ago
  I think the OP confused 2 states. One is bad, and it's important to let the person know it didn't meet standard for whatever reason. Use all the normal communication styles for that. The other is, it wasn't done how I would do it, but isn't necessarily bad. That's when I would use the approach you have an issue with. In a lot of engineering there is no right answer, only different tradeoffs. It could certain be that the reviewer isn't seeing a tradeoff that the writer saw, etc...
• cacois 3y ago
  I've often phrased it closer to "I like how much effort you put into this. You clearly put some thought in, did you consider this approach?" I don't have to say I liked the solution to appreciate the effort and dedication.
• lemmsjid 3y ago
  I think it's important not to lie, but I don't think the above is automatically a lie. Instead, it's a call to evaluate people on multiple dimensions rather than one. When you're giving feedback to someone, it is often a knee jerk thing to ONLY evaluate the outcome of their work. The other thing you should evaluate, though, is your estimation of their effort, e.g. how hard they worked at it, and your estimation of their process, e.g. how well they used their time. If you only evaluate the outcome of their work, and the work is not adequate, you have given them a purely negative evaluation. If you acknowledge respect for their toil and their process, then you have given them 2 positive evaluations and 1 negative evaluation. You're also acknowledging that because you respect their toil and process, they are doing the right thing in spite of needing the course correction you are providing. Of course, maybe you have a negative opinion on all 3 aspects of the evaluation. If you think they didn't apply themselves, e.g. their effort was not good enough, AND you think they were't efficient in their process, AND you think the outcome was bad, then certainly it would be a lie to praise any of those aspects, though at that point there's almost certainly something more fundamental that's going on and the person is not a good fit for the job. Finally, it's important to evaluate your own sense of certainty about the feedback. I think the important thing about the above advice is that if you are giving feedback and you only focus on the course correction part, it's safe to assume that most people will take that as negative feedback on all the aspects of their work. Now, there are situations and teams where there is so much trust built up around everyone's mutual respect that you can skip to the outcome feedback. There are also feedback-recipients who are confident enough in themselves that they feel that they don't need anything but correctional feedback. In other words, "This was shit!" can totally fly when there's a lot of mutual trust and confidence. But too often I've seen people misread the room in that aspect: THEY, the feedback-givers, have plenty of psychological safety, and they think that is extended to other people who absolutely don't feel that way.