7 ms·

Glad that existing customers will be able to maintain their bikes more easily. But I also look forward to (hope for?) an era where e-bikes are a lot more like r

Glad that existing customers will be able to maintain their bikes more easily. But I also look forward to (hope for?) an era where e-bikes are a lot more like regular bikes: totally generic, interchangeable parts that don’t require any single manufacturer.

notJim 3y ago
Isn't that era already basically here, except for VanMoof which was the exception?
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  Nope. Unless you mean only the core bicycle parts. Everything electronic is highly incompatible and unstandardized. Some things fit and some standards are emerging, but for others you struggle to find the right parts, or parts at all.
  - serf 3y ago
    a lot of it was standardized until individual companies decided to try to divvy up a market and segment it. so many electric vehicles are running their own version of the Benjamin Vedder VESC as the primary motor controller. They change a minor feature, stop providing source, and then pretend that it's their own design. But, even so, it's all still pretty inter-changable. Nearly all BLDCs are controlled similarly. Nearly all PEVs are running hall encoders, and if they're not it's trivial to switch between hall/sin-cos/foc/whatever with nearly any modern controller, just as nearly any controller can be programmed for just about any kind of voltage source, be it lead-acid/lipo/liion/lifepo4/whatever. Things seem a lot more friendly for tinkerers now than ever in the whole PEV sphere. Improvements can always be hoped for, but same as with every industry : you should probably expect to exchange interoperability and freedom for closely-knit support and homogeneity.
- doctorpangloss 3y ago
  I own VanMoofs, and I live near a brand store. I also own a car, and I used to own a Stromer, which doesn't have brand stores. I can't believe anyone desires the experience of the auto mechanic, for anything. Like I know that's something that exists obviously and is something people do, like people go to normal bike shops. But it doesn't make sense. If people want to buy crappy bikes they can. There's an ecosystem for that. VanMoof's problems are complicated, there are a lot of super low information comments on HN right now. I'm not interested in people's anecdotes, and I'm not sharing any either. All I'm saying is that in my experience, with every product I've owned, the VanMoof approach has been better for me, as a consumer, and that I only hope that they figure out pricing to make it sustainable in the future.
  - gonehome 3y ago
    +1 tight vertical integration leads to better products, better defaults, and better user experience in the (vast) majority of cases across most product domains. It’s sad to see them fail, hopefully someone else will be able to pull it off. I guess my $20 deposit for their faster e-bike is unlikely to ever come to anything. Maybe I should just get a used stromer.
    - chrischen 3y ago
      $20 nothing I had a fully prepaid bike order from a year ago that never shipped.
  - m01 3y ago
    I wonder if your opinion would be any different if you lived further away from a brand store, maybe because you moved, or because the store moved/closed.
    - madeofpalk 3y ago
      …or because the company went bankrupt?
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    How did the Stromer work for you? Was it an e-bike or s-pedelec version?
pyrophane 3y ago
Most of the large bike manufacturers (Trek, Giant, Specialized, etc) make eBikes that use more standardized parts.
- blackbeans 3y ago
  But the electric components are not standardized. You can buy e-systems from Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano, Fazua, Mahle, Stromer, Bafang et cetera and they all have different dimensions, different mounting holes, different communication protocols and different chargers. If you need a replacement part as a consumer, you have no choice but to buy the same part, which is usually quite costly because of lack of competition.
  - Daz1 3y ago
    Not sure why you think you're entitled to standardised parts across various manufacturers? When has that ever been the case for driveline components in vehicles more complicated than a standard pushbike?
  - athrun 3y ago
    The tech is still rapidly evolving though—I'm not sure it's realistic to expect standardisation here for a while. Manufacturers are experimenting with form factors, perf-to-weight ratios, noise levels, weatherproofing, connectivity features, anti-theft mechanisms, ABS, etc. Battery connectivity and charging is where I'd personally like to see more standardisation—even if there are obvious form factor challenges. Standardisation here could drive costs down, which would benefit the entire market. Maybe the EU should start leaning in this area.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- djaychela 3y ago
  Not my experience here - I bought a Giant eBike which has a Yamaha powertrain... which is neither fish nor fowl. Battery is Giant, motor is Yamaha, but it uses a different comms protocol between motor and battery than the later Giant-only ones, so it's actually Yamaha... and notorious for comms failures. Battery says it's OK, and motor says it's OK, but there's a comms issue between them, so no power. I'll need to spend time sitting on a 1-wire serial comms link to have any idea what's wrong (rumour is that the transistor that powers this in the motor is a common failure point). Some of these batteries can't be re-celled as if they've had a failure, the BMS deliberately goes into a 'permanently dead' mode, so it can't be recovered even if the dead cells are replaced. It's criminal what's happening in the proprietary eBike space.
_m8fo 3y ago
The era you're describing is possible today if you build your own e-bike. You can pick up a kit from ebikeling which includes standard throttles, hub motors (or mid-drive if you're into that), pedal assist sensors and displays. You can buy one of thousands of batteries with XT60 connectors or solder one to any battery you'd like.
- afavour 3y ago
  All the power to anyone that wants to do that! My biking needs are extremely utilitarian: I have a cargo e-bike I take my kids to and from school in. I don’t trust myself with (or, rather, I know I don’t have the time to be expert at) e-bike motor installation/repair/etc and in my experience very few bike shops will want to do something like that for you given the higher risks involved. Given I’m taking my kids on the thing every day I don’t feel like taking risks either.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Depending on where you live this may not be a legal option. It shouldn't be like that but there are plenty of places where e-bicycles need to go through a certification track that costs a large multiple of a single e-bike. This to ensure that you match the maximum assist and top speed factors and that the bike is safe from an electrical point of view (which is an important enough factor).
  - aidenn0 3y ago
    Probably because I live in a detached home, but I kind of don't care if somebody else's bike catches on fire, but I strongly care if they are going to be going to be going over 50kph on a MUP. Even so, I think certification is a poor way of addressing the issue, since people modify the firmware of mass-manufactured ebikes all the time.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      > since people modify the firmware of mass-manufactured ebikes all the time They certainly try. Some bikes are better protected than others and part of the certification process is to verify it isn't trivial to hack the bikes. And if this is found to be the case after the fact certification can be withdrawn, retroactively so manufacturers have a lot riding on getting this right. Note that in plenty of places nobody cares, but in some countries authorities are strict (and getting ever stricter).
Someone 3y ago
> an era where e-bikes are a lot more like regular bikes: totally generic, interchangeable parts that don’t require any single manufacturer. I wouldn’t hold my breath. https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2023/02/can-we-make-bicycles-sustainable-again.html https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2023/02/can-we-make-bicycles...: “Until a few decades ago, component compatibility was a hallmark of bicycle manufacturing. My bicycles are a perfect example of this. Most components – such as wheels, gear set, and brakes – are interchangeable between the different frames, even though every vehicle is from another brand and year of construction. […] Unfortunately, compatibility is hardly a feature of bicycle manufacturing anymore. Manufacturers have introduced an increasing number of proprietary parts and keep changing standards, resulting in compatibility issues even for older bicycles of the same brand. For example, if the shifter of a modern bike breaks after some years of use, a replacement part will probably no longer be available. You need to order a new set from a new generation, which will be incompatible with your front and rear derailleur – which you also need to replace. For road bikes, the change from cassette bodies with ten sprockets (around 2010) to cassette bodies with eleven, twelve, and most recently thirteen sprockets have made many wheelsets obsolete, and the same goes for the rest of the drivetrain including shifters and chains. Disc brakes, which are now on almost every new bicycle, all have different axle designs, meaning that every vehicle now requires proprietary spare parts. Disc brakes also required new shifters, forks, framesets, cables, and wheels, making such bicycles incompatible with earlier designs.”
- norir 3y ago
  Yes. The other day I saw a modern looking bike with a chris king headset and I smiled. I wonder if there is an opportunity for a rogue group of manufacturers to essentially open source road bike designs and more or less freeze certain standards in the design (e.g. use threaded bottom brackets which are dramatically easier to maintain and give up little in _meaningful_ performance for most riders). Of course this would imply selling fewer bicycles to each individual consumer (though there would always be a need for replacement parts) so I'm sure the bike industry would hate such an idea.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Bikes have been 'open sourced' since the early 1900's. It is only now with the advent of e-bikes and ridiculously overpriced racing bikes that the 'closed source' model has entered the equation. Bikes as a service is a thing now. You don't even own your bike anymore... I bought a -cheap- beater for a family member a few weeks ago for the grand sum of $80. It is an excellent bike by a prime brand manufacturer, it needed a little bit of work (roller brake service, one new spoke, some grease and a new rear light) and it's as good as new. I fully expect it to outlive me, and probably everybody else in this house if it is taken care of as well. I regularly see bikes from the 60's around here that are still in very good shape. The bike industry lives by: theft, bike accidents, kids growing up (kids are really rough on bikes) and cracks in frames. Everything else is fixable if the bike is of a reputable brand. Crap bikes not so much those have the weirdest parts.
monsieurgaufre 3y ago
You are asking for collaboration from multiple companies with different motivations. I guess you might not be aware of the rim+tubeless tires kerfuffle. If the industry manage to do it, I could be on board with the e-bikes in general, but i'm not holding my breadth at all.
hedora 3y ago
The main reason to buy a ~$500 bike vs. a $100-$200 Huffy at Walmart is that you can't get parts for the Huffy, so you'll be buying a new one every 12 months. A secondary reason is that they don't seem to make Huffy's for people over ~ 5' 10". (The $500 bike will probably handle better too, but not 5x better, and I'd recommend getting something more expensive if you can afford it.) Examples of $100-$200 adult bikes: https://www.walmart.com/browse/sports-outdoors/huffy-bikes/4125_1081404_6972181_9379318 https://www.walmart.com/browse/sports-outdoors/huffy-bikes/4... The cheapest repairable "large" adult bikes at a bike chain that is common in SV have a starting non-sale price of $500: https://mikesbikes.com/collections/bikes?sort_by=price-ascending&filter.p.m.custom.bike_size=Large+%2857-59%29 https://mikesbikes.com/collections/bikes?sort_by=price-ascen... Anyway, my point is that if the eBike people prevent you from repairing or customizing your bike by using non-interchangeable parts, then they're asking to be disrupted by low-end landfill bikes.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Those low end bikes are horrible from an ecological perspective and they also give people that buy them the idea that bikes are unreliable.
  - hedora 3y ago
    Agreed. However, if high-end eBikes go the same way, then they will be even worse.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      I've yet to see that happening other than with Van Moof, but there is a fair chance that someone will again try to pull an 'Apple'. Bike savvy consumers have fallen for this once so there is a chance that some will fall for it again, especially in places where Van Moof wasn't popular but here people have - at least in my circles - quite soured on the concept so let's hope that sticks and they don't sell another bike. (Too bad for Lavoie).
- bradford 3y ago
  > The main reason to buy a ~$500 bike vs. a $100-$200 Huffy at Walmart is that you can't get parts for the Huffy, My (cheap department store) bicycle had a sudden critical failure that caused my front wheel to lock, throwing me over the handlebars. That's the main reason I'll never buy one of those again. Of course, that was in the early 90s, and I'm open to the possibility that cheap bikes have improved since then, but it was an abrupt lesson about getting what you pay for...
Zigurd 3y ago
There are (at least) two forces pulling in different directions: I can envision common form factors for mid motors and even motor/gearbox combos. That's most of the parts compatibility struggle. OTOH e-bikes can have a very wide range of designs and still be practical for all purposes. You don't have to optimize for weight. Your cargo ebike can be your commuting bike. Also, there are niggles like belt drive requiring a different frame. You have to be able to put the belt through a gap in the... do we still call it a "chainstay?" I've been shopping for a used bike. Life was so much simpler when I had no idea that Shimano and Campagnolo drietrain components were so incompatible and that incompatibility flows through to the way the rear wheel is built.
doctorpangloss 3y ago
From the article: > VanMoof will abandon its in-house retail store model, instead using third-party retailers to sell and service bikes, opening up new markets around the world for potential buyers. No, customers will have a harder time maintaining their bikes. They will visit bike shops that will quote X and then charge 1.5 * X, and you're going to be waiting in a line with 10 people who ride their bikes once a month.
londons_explore 3y ago
Cheap ebikes are already that - you can normally swap motors, batteries and motor controllers between brands. Batteries are all 48v lithium, with protection circuits built in. Motors are all 3 phase brushless. Controllers just take DC input, and output to a 3 phase motor. Most take pwm input for torque or a magnetic pedal sensor. The resulting bike feels 'cheap' due to all the parts not working well together (for example, they always jerk a bit when pulling away because the motor has no position sensor)
davidee 3y ago
I share your hope. Sadly, though, I don't think off-the shelf e-bikes will likely ever head that way unless there's a sea-change in consumer behaviour. Even regular old human-only powered bikes have been getting increasingly proprietary, at least at the middle to high-end of the market. It's not dissimilar to the increase in tech for cars, making it more challenging for DIYers to get their elbows dirty without involving some business related to the manufacturer. DIY e-bikes are pretty easy; although they often require a bit of assembly. The assembly is not particularly hard, certainly no harder than building a simple gaming PC. DIY ebike kits usually operate with standard, off-the-shelf bikes and bike parts. Even more poignantly, the kits are typically best on used bikes that followed common standards for a long time. The bike industry has worked hard to make us think hub-drive motors are the lesser option. They have some serious advantages for most commuting and general cycling (MTB'ing is a place where mid-drive motors excel), including more available power, lower drivetrain wear and the ability to use regenerative braking. I built an e-bike recently around a late 90s MTB. The only complicated bit was figuring out the cable routing and hiding some of the bird's nest of wires well (some 3D printing took care of that). In our conspicuously consumerist milieu, where form is often valued over function, bikes like the VanMoof offer a (deceptive) look of simplicity and elegance. To my mind, that's a perspective we have to shift. Things should be easy to reason about, easy to fix, easy to customize—it's really the right-to-own (right to repair?) by another name.
dingus9001 3y ago
They already are just buy a "normal" ebike instead of things like this.

notJim 3y ago

Isn't that era already basically here, except for VanMoof which was the exception?

hutzlibu 3y ago
Nope. Unless you mean only the core bicycle parts. Everything electronic is highly incompatible and unstandardized. Some things fit and some standards are emerging, but for others you struggle to find the right parts, or parts at all.
- serf 3y ago
  a lot of it was standardized until individual companies decided to try to divvy up a market and segment it. so many electric vehicles are running their own version of the Benjamin Vedder VESC as the primary motor controller. They change a minor feature, stop providing source, and then pretend that it's their own design. But, even so, it's all still pretty inter-changable. Nearly all BLDCs are controlled similarly. Nearly all PEVs are running hall encoders, and if they're not it's trivial to switch between hall/sin-cos/foc/whatever with nearly any modern controller, just as nearly any controller can be programmed for just about any kind of voltage source, be it lead-acid/lipo/liion/lifepo4/whatever. Things seem a lot more friendly for tinkerers now than ever in the whole PEV sphere. Improvements can always be hoped for, but same as with every industry : you should probably expect to exchange interoperability and freedom for closely-knit support and homogeneity.
doctorpangloss 3y ago
I own VanMoofs, and I live near a brand store. I also own a car, and I used to own a Stromer, which doesn't have brand stores. I can't believe anyone desires the experience of the auto mechanic, for anything. Like I know that's something that exists obviously and is something people do, like people go to normal bike shops. But it doesn't make sense. If people want to buy crappy bikes they can. There's an ecosystem for that. VanMoof's problems are complicated, there are a lot of super low information comments on HN right now. I'm not interested in people's anecdotes, and I'm not sharing any either. All I'm saying is that in my experience, with every product I've owned, the VanMoof approach has been better for me, as a consumer, and that I only hope that they figure out pricing to make it sustainable in the future.
- gonehome 3y ago
  +1 tight vertical integration leads to better products, better defaults, and better user experience in the (vast) majority of cases across most product domains. It’s sad to see them fail, hopefully someone else will be able to pull it off. I guess my $20 deposit for their faster e-bike is unlikely to ever come to anything. Maybe I should just get a used stromer.
  - chrischen 3y ago
    $20 nothing I had a fully prepaid bike order from a year ago that never shipped.
- m01 3y ago
  I wonder if your opinion would be any different if you lived further away from a brand store, maybe because you moved, or because the store moved/closed.
  - madeofpalk 3y ago
    …or because the company went bankrupt?
- jacquesm 3y ago
  How did the Stromer work for you? Was it an e-bike or s-pedelec version?

pyrophane 3y ago

Most of the large bike manufacturers (Trek, Giant, Specialized, etc) make eBikes that use more standardized parts.

blackbeans 3y ago
But the electric components are not standardized. You can buy e-systems from Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano, Fazua, Mahle, Stromer, Bafang et cetera and they all have different dimensions, different mounting holes, different communication protocols and different chargers. If you need a replacement part as a consumer, you have no choice but to buy the same part, which is usually quite costly because of lack of competition.
- Daz1 3y ago
  Not sure why you think you're entitled to standardised parts across various manufacturers? When has that ever been the case for driveline components in vehicles more complicated than a standard pushbike?
- athrun 3y ago
  The tech is still rapidly evolving though—I'm not sure it's realistic to expect standardisation here for a while. Manufacturers are experimenting with form factors, perf-to-weight ratios, noise levels, weatherproofing, connectivity features, anti-theft mechanisms, ABS, etc. Battery connectivity and charging is where I'd personally like to see more standardisation—even if there are obvious form factor challenges. Standardisation here could drive costs down, which would benefit the entire market. Maybe the EU should start leaning in this area.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
djaychela 3y ago
Not my experience here - I bought a Giant eBike which has a Yamaha powertrain... which is neither fish nor fowl. Battery is Giant, motor is Yamaha, but it uses a different comms protocol between motor and battery than the later Giant-only ones, so it's actually Yamaha... and notorious for comms failures. Battery says it's OK, and motor says it's OK, but there's a comms issue between them, so no power. I'll need to spend time sitting on a 1-wire serial comms link to have any idea what's wrong (rumour is that the transistor that powers this in the motor is a common failure point). Some of these batteries can't be re-celled as if they've had a failure, the BMS deliberately goes into a 'permanently dead' mode, so it can't be recovered even if the dead cells are replaced. It's criminal what's happening in the proprietary eBike space.

_m8fo 3y ago

The era you're describing is possible today if you build your own e-bike. You can pick up a kit from ebikeling which includes standard throttles, hub motors (or mid-drive if you're into that), pedal assist sensors and displays. You can buy one of thousands of batteries with XT60 connectors or solder one to any battery you'd like.

afavour 3y ago
All the power to anyone that wants to do that! My biking needs are extremely utilitarian: I have a cargo e-bike I take my kids to and from school in. I don’t trust myself with (or, rather, I know I don’t have the time to be expert at) e-bike motor installation/repair/etc and in my experience very few bike shops will want to do something like that for you given the higher risks involved. Given I’m taking my kids on the thing every day I don’t feel like taking risks either.
jacquesm 3y ago
Depending on where you live this may not be a legal option. It shouldn't be like that but there are plenty of places where e-bicycles need to go through a certification track that costs a large multiple of a single e-bike. This to ensure that you match the maximum assist and top speed factors and that the bike is safe from an electrical point of view (which is an important enough factor).
- aidenn0 3y ago
  Probably because I live in a detached home, but I kind of don't care if somebody else's bike catches on fire, but I strongly care if they are going to be going to be going over 50kph on a MUP. Even so, I think certification is a poor way of addressing the issue, since people modify the firmware of mass-manufactured ebikes all the time.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    > since people modify the firmware of mass-manufactured ebikes all the time They certainly try. Some bikes are better protected than others and part of the certification process is to verify it isn't trivial to hack the bikes. And if this is found to be the case after the fact certification can be withdrawn, retroactively so manufacturers have a lot riding on getting this right. Note that in plenty of places nobody cares, but in some countries authorities are strict (and getting ever stricter).

Someone 3y ago

> an era where e-bikes are a lot more like regular bikes: totally generic, interchangeable parts that don’t require any single manufacturer. I wouldn’t hold my breath. https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2023/02/can-we-make-bicycles-sustainable-again.html https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2023/02/can-we-make-bicycles...: “Until a few decades ago, component compatibility was a hallmark of bicycle manufacturing. My bicycles are a perfect example of this. Most components – such as wheels, gear set, and brakes – are interchangeable between the different frames, even though every vehicle is from another brand and year of construction. […] Unfortunately, compatibility is hardly a feature of bicycle manufacturing anymore. Manufacturers have introduced an increasing number of proprietary parts and keep changing standards, resulting in compatibility issues even for older bicycles of the same brand. For example, if the shifter of a modern bike breaks after some years of use, a replacement part will probably no longer be available. You need to order a new set from a new generation, which will be incompatible with your front and rear derailleur – which you also need to replace. For road bikes, the change from cassette bodies with ten sprockets (around 2010) to cassette bodies with eleven, twelve, and most recently thirteen sprockets have made many wheelsets obsolete, and the same goes for the rest of the drivetrain including shifters and chains. Disc brakes, which are now on almost every new bicycle, all have different axle designs, meaning that every vehicle now requires proprietary spare parts. Disc brakes also required new shifters, forks, framesets, cables, and wheels, making such bicycles incompatible with earlier designs.”

norir 3y ago
Yes. The other day I saw a modern looking bike with a chris king headset and I smiled. I wonder if there is an opportunity for a rogue group of manufacturers to essentially open source road bike designs and more or less freeze certain standards in the design (e.g. use threaded bottom brackets which are dramatically easier to maintain and give up little in _meaningful_ performance for most riders). Of course this would imply selling fewer bicycles to each individual consumer (though there would always be a need for replacement parts) so I'm sure the bike industry would hate such an idea.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Bikes have been 'open sourced' since the early 1900's. It is only now with the advent of e-bikes and ridiculously overpriced racing bikes that the 'closed source' model has entered the equation. Bikes as a service is a thing now. You don't even own your bike anymore... I bought a -cheap- beater for a family member a few weeks ago for the grand sum of $80. It is an excellent bike by a prime brand manufacturer, it needed a little bit of work (roller brake service, one new spoke, some grease and a new rear light) and it's as good as new. I fully expect it to outlive me, and probably everybody else in this house if it is taken care of as well. I regularly see bikes from the 60's around here that are still in very good shape. The bike industry lives by: theft, bike accidents, kids growing up (kids are really rough on bikes) and cracks in frames. Everything else is fixable if the bike is of a reputable brand. Crap bikes not so much those have the weirdest parts.

monsieurgaufre 3y ago

You are asking for collaboration from multiple companies with different motivations. I guess you might not be aware of the rim+tubeless tires kerfuffle. If the industry manage to do it, I could be on board with the e-bikes in general, but i'm not holding my breadth at all.

hedora 3y ago

The main reason to buy a ~$500 bike vs. a $100-$200 Huffy at Walmart is that you can't get parts for the Huffy, so you'll be buying a new one every 12 months. A secondary reason is that they don't seem to make Huffy's for people over ~ 5' 10". (The $500 bike will probably handle better too, but not 5x better, and I'd recommend getting something more expensive if you can afford it.) Examples of $100-$200 adult bikes: https://www.walmart.com/browse/sports-outdoors/huffy-bikes/4125_1081404_6972181_9379318 https://www.walmart.com/browse/sports-outdoors/huffy-bikes/4... The cheapest repairable "large" adult bikes at a bike chain that is common in SV have a starting non-sale price of $500: https://mikesbikes.com/collections/bikes?sort_by=price-ascending&filter.p.m.custom.bike_size=Large+%2857-59%29 https://mikesbikes.com/collections/bikes?sort_by=price-ascen... Anyway, my point is that if the eBike people prevent you from repairing or customizing your bike by using non-interchangeable parts, then they're asking to be disrupted by low-end landfill bikes.

jacquesm 3y ago
Those low end bikes are horrible from an ecological perspective and they also give people that buy them the idea that bikes are unreliable.
- hedora 3y ago
  Agreed. However, if high-end eBikes go the same way, then they will be even worse.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    I've yet to see that happening other than with Van Moof, but there is a fair chance that someone will again try to pull an 'Apple'. Bike savvy consumers have fallen for this once so there is a chance that some will fall for it again, especially in places where Van Moof wasn't popular but here people have - at least in my circles - quite soured on the concept so let's hope that sticks and they don't sell another bike. (Too bad for Lavoie).
bradford 3y ago
> The main reason to buy a ~$500 bike vs. a $100-$200 Huffy at Walmart is that you can't get parts for the Huffy, My (cheap department store) bicycle had a sudden critical failure that caused my front wheel to lock, throwing me over the handlebars. That's the main reason I'll never buy one of those again. Of course, that was in the early 90s, and I'm open to the possibility that cheap bikes have improved since then, but it was an abrupt lesson about getting what you pay for...

Zigurd 3y ago

There are (at least) two forces pulling in different directions: I can envision common form factors for mid motors and even motor/gearbox combos. That's most of the parts compatibility struggle. OTOH e-bikes can have a very wide range of designs and still be practical for all purposes. You don't have to optimize for weight. Your cargo ebike can be your commuting bike. Also, there are niggles like belt drive requiring a different frame. You have to be able to put the belt through a gap in the... do we still call it a "chainstay?" I've been shopping for a used bike. Life was so much simpler when I had no idea that Shimano and Campagnolo drietrain components were so incompatible and that incompatibility flows through to the way the rear wheel is built.

doctorpangloss 3y ago

From the article: > VanMoof will abandon its in-house retail store model, instead using third-party retailers to sell and service bikes, opening up new markets around the world for potential buyers. No, customers will have a harder time maintaining their bikes. They will visit bike shops that will quote X and then charge 1.5 * X, and you're going to be waiting in a line with 10 people who ride their bikes once a month.

londons_explore 3y ago

Cheap ebikes are already that - you can normally swap motors, batteries and motor controllers between brands. Batteries are all 48v lithium, with protection circuits built in. Motors are all 3 phase brushless. Controllers just take DC input, and output to a 3 phase motor. Most take pwm input for torque or a magnetic pedal sensor. The resulting bike feels 'cheap' due to all the parts not working well together (for example, they always jerk a bit when pulling away because the motor has no position sensor)

davidee 3y ago

I share your hope. Sadly, though, I don't think off-the shelf e-bikes will likely ever head that way unless there's a sea-change in consumer behaviour. Even regular old human-only powered bikes have been getting increasingly proprietary, at least at the middle to high-end of the market. It's not dissimilar to the increase in tech for cars, making it more challenging for DIYers to get their elbows dirty without involving some business related to the manufacturer. DIY e-bikes are pretty easy; although they often require a bit of assembly. The assembly is not particularly hard, certainly no harder than building a simple gaming PC. DIY ebike kits usually operate with standard, off-the-shelf bikes and bike parts. Even more poignantly, the kits are typically best on used bikes that followed common standards for a long time. The bike industry has worked hard to make us think hub-drive motors are the lesser option. They have some serious advantages for most commuting and general cycling (MTB'ing is a place where mid-drive motors excel), including more available power, lower drivetrain wear and the ability to use regenerative braking. I built an e-bike recently around a late 90s MTB. The only complicated bit was figuring out the cable routing and hiding some of the bird's nest of wires well (some 3D printing took care of that). In our conspicuously consumerist milieu, where form is often valued over function, bikes like the VanMoof offer a (deceptive) look of simplicity and elegance. To my mind, that's a perspective we have to shift. Things should be easy to reason about, easy to fix, easy to customize—it's really the right-to-own (right to repair?) by another name.

dingus9001 3y ago

They already are just buy a "normal" ebike instead of things like this.