6 ms·

As a programmer of over 30 years I still have never used Usenet and the reason is the barrier to entry. There is way too much friction. You need a paid (!) sub

As a programmer of over 30 years I still have never used Usenet and the reason is the barrier to entry. There is way too much friction. You need a paid (!) subscription to a provider, potentially a subscription to an indexer, plus client software. All of this to access what is essentially a pure text forum. Frankly I am not interested in jumping through hoops to access something which an "average person" would have no hope in hell of figuring out. Maybe that's part of the attraction, that only dedicated geeks will use it?

hollerith 3y ago
As someone who's spent many thousands of hours on Usenet (in the 1990s), my advice is not to waste your time.
rnk 3y ago
The article notes you can get a free read/write subscription at https://www.eternal-september.org/ https://www.eternal-september.org/.
pmontra 3y ago
I remember that setting up a server was not too much of a big deal in the late 80s /early 90s. We did it for our university. I can't remember how we federated (the word was different back then). We definitely didn't have to pay anything to the server (or servers?) we were getting news from and sending our messages to. Anyway, this is probably an even higher hoop to jump through.
reaperducer 3y ago
You need a paid (!) subscription to a provider, potentially a subscription to an indexer, plus client software. When Usenet was big, you didn't need a paid subscription. Almost every ISP included it for free. I never heard of an indexer. Client software came with your operating system, or it was built in to your e-mail client, or you could download for free. As for today — yes, how awful that you might have to pay for something. Completely terrible. It might even be half the price of a cup of coffee. Completely unacceptable to have to give someone money for something of value. Terrible. Much better to lock oneself inside the mink-lined, free, censored, AI-curated cages of the big data corps. Not thinking is always so much easier and more comfortable than thinking.
pazimzadeh 3y ago
Life was good when Unison was still being maintained https://blog.panic.com/unison-2/ https://blog.panic.com/unison-2/ https://panic.com/blog/the-future-of-unison/ https://panic.com/blog/the-future-of-unison/ https://www.astraweb.com https://www.astraweb.com is the best provider I know
cbm-vic-20 3y ago
Back In The Day, the barrier to entry was low. Most Unix boxes had the "rn" or "trn" newsreaders installed, and VMS also had one (though I don't recall its name). It was as easy to get into as email.
jtode 3y ago
I haven't looked in a long time, but the last time I did look, there were any number of places you could connect to gratis, but which do not carry binaries groups. A non-binary usenet server is lightweight enough to run on the 80s Internet so the costs of operation without all that storage and retention is pretty minimal.
scelerat 3y ago
> There is way too much friction A lot of the early ISPs, 1993-early 2000s, had free nntp/usenet services. The "friction" of using usenet was not any greater that the friction of launching an email client, an ftp or gopher session, or launching Mosaic. At the time there were many easy-to-use featureful nntp clients across most computing platforms. I remember liking MT-Newswatcher quite a bit as well as Nuntius. The UI of Newswatcher was not too different from an email client or perhaps directory browser. Screenshots from MT-Newswatcher https://smfr.org/mtnw/screenshots.html
- evilbob93 3y ago
  It's arguable that today the "friction" might be a feature.
876978095789789 3y ago
> As a programmer of over 30 years I still have never used Usenet and the reason is the barrier to entry. There is way too much friction. Really? I'm old enough to remember when Google bought Deja, and with it suddenly came the ability to search the entire Usenet archive going back to its inception, through the Google Groups interface. Being able to search the archives of comp.lang.whatever was a great educational and productivity booster, like Stackoverflow before SO.
jdofaz 3y ago
In the olden times your ISP usually included it like they did with email, the instructions for my old isp still exists though I doubt the news server does http://www.uswest.net/help/newsgroups.html http://www.uswest.net/help/newsgroups.html
jjav 3y ago
> As a programmer of over 30 years... > You need a paid (!) subscription 30 years ago (and I'd say even 20 years ago) every ISP had their own usenet feed just like they had their own email server. It's only fairly recently this has become a bit of a barrier (although as many have noted in this discussion, free ones exist so not much of a barrier). My ISP discontinued their usenet server in 2016, fairly recently. Installing a client is one package-install command away, not exactly a barrier.
glonq 3y ago
~30 years ago, the barrier to entry was minimal. There were many free news servers out there, and it was common for your ISP to offer one. Good client software was easy to find (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort%C3%A9_Agent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort%C3%A9_Agent) And yeah, the best part about usenet was that there were fewer "average people" on there. The Internet was great before AoL connected everybody else to it ;)
lproven 3y ago
> You need a paid (!) subscription to a provider Tell us that you didn't RTFA without saying that you didn't RTFA. By the way, I wrote the article. If you've been around since before Google as you claim, you should know to RTFM and RTFA.
tigereyeTO 3y ago
Sounds like you’re misinformed. Text-only newsgroup servers are free. You only need to use/pay for indexers if you’re scouring many groups for specific keywords. If you’re subscribing to specific text groups you don’t need to search an index for the whole net. You can just scroll to the top and read what you missed since last session The barrier of entry is learning how to use a piece of software like Thunderbird. It’s no larger than email. If you figured that one out, you can figure out newsgroups too. I remember when everyone was deriding “the internet” and “email” as being too cumbersome for an “average person” to figure out, having too many “hoops” to jump through to use it. Thanks for the nostalgia, wackget
LinuxBender 3y ago
A paid subscription is not required for the pure text aspect of Usenet. [1] It is required however to make use of the binary groups which makes sense as those servers use a tremendous amount of bandwidth even by today's standards. [1] - https://www.eternal-september.org/ https://www.eternal-september.org/
StevePerkins 3y ago
The article links to a free Usenet provider. I'm sure there are others also. The purpose for a PAID Usenet provider is for hosting binaries (i.e. piracy). You're paying someone for the bandwidth, and ignore or deal with the DMCA takedown notices. There is little to no reason to have a paid Usenet account just to read or post on pure text forums, and NOT download porn or other pirated content. That was really one of the two things that killed Usenet in the 2000's. One was the rise of phpBB forums, and then Reddit. The other was the seediness of the Usenet binaries scene. As the "legit" users migrated to web-based forums, the pirates made up a larger and larger portion of those staying behind, and eventually the network effort flowed in reverse until critical mass was lost. I deeply miss that old Usenet culture of the 1990's. In comparison to HN and especially Reddit, Usenet was far less reverent, frumpy, and up-its-own-ass politically and socially. At the same time, it's impossible to try to recreate that on a forum today, without it breaking down into nothing but alt-right hate speech. The 1990's was a fun and quirky little period of Internet sanity, made possible only by how small and outside the mainstream the Internet still was.
- BeetleB 3y ago
  > The purpose for a PAID Usenet provider is for hosting binaries (i.e. piracy). You're paying someone for the bandwidth, and ignore or deal with the DMCA takedown notices. There is little to no reason to have a paid Usenet account just to read or post on pure text forums, and NOT download porn or other pirated content. This may reflect the state today, but back in the late 90's and early 00's, it was not. Even for the pure text forums, you had to pay someone. In the earlier days it was included in the ISP package, so you wouldn't see the costs. Or via your university. But I distinctly remember when my university dropped USENET lots of people complained because they couldn't get free access elsewhere. For me: I used BBS's before I used USENET. BBS groups ("conferences") were much more civil, and had much better discourse. The moderation was very effective. When I moved to USENET, it was quite chaotic by comparison. And then with the onset of spam, I went elsewhere.
  - rsynnott 3y ago
    > But I distinctly remember when my university dropped USENET lots of people complained because they couldn't get free access elsewhere. Unless they dropped it _really_ early, there was dejanews/google groups, surely?
troymc 3y ago
The "high" barrier to entry does act as a filter today, but I should add that in the 1990s, it was considered relatively easy, not so different from using email; it's only with the existence of modern social networks that the access steps seem relatively difficult. P.S. For many Usenet groups, you don't need to pay anything to get access.
- denton-scratch 3y ago
  It's still as easy as setting up email. You have a username, a password, and a hostname for the server. Then you're off to the races.
denton-scratch 3y ago
The article pointed out that Eternal September offers free subscriptions. I'm not sure what an "indexer" is, such that you'd need to subscribe to it; is that some kind of online service like Deja News? I used to just download everything that appeared on the handful of groups that interested me, and store it locally. Then I could do local searches. That "store locally" capability wasn't some bag of bash scripts I cobbled together; I thought all newsreaders could do that natively.
pmarreck 3y ago
As a 51 year old programmer, you really missed out on some cool discussion back in the day. But yes, honestly, I haven't done anything Usenet in years save for the occasional Google result that lands on a Google Groups URL. Honestly it might be worth resurrecting the protocol to run your own Usenet web UI just for weekend funsies.
jjkaczor 3y ago
Having been in the IT industry since 1992 - I did use a free Usenet server, probably provided by my ISP. Used the "comp.*" heirarchy mostly, discussing technical topics and answering questions - in 1996, a publisher (Wiley!) sent me a box of books - apparently I had helped one of their authors and they wanted to thank me. On-one-hand, I would like to try it again - OTOH, I think spam and/or bots would overwhelm it to the point of uselessness.

hollerith 3y ago

As someone who's spent many thousands of hours on Usenet (in the 1990s), my advice is not to waste your time.

rnk 3y ago

The article notes you can get a free read/write subscription at https://www.eternal-september.org/ https://www.eternal-september.org/.

pmontra 3y ago

I remember that setting up a server was not too much of a big deal in the late 80s /early 90s. We did it for our university. I can't remember how we federated (the word was different back then). We definitely didn't have to pay anything to the server (or servers?) we were getting news from and sending our messages to. Anyway, this is probably an even higher hoop to jump through.

reaperducer 3y ago

You need a paid (!) subscription to a provider, potentially a subscription to an indexer, plus client software. When Usenet was big, you didn't need a paid subscription. Almost every ISP included it for free. I never heard of an indexer. Client software came with your operating system, or it was built in to your e-mail client, or you could download for free. As for today — yes, how awful that you might have to pay for something. Completely terrible. It might even be half the price of a cup of coffee. Completely unacceptable to have to give someone money for something of value. Terrible. Much better to lock oneself inside the mink-lined, free, censored, AI-curated cages of the big data corps. Not thinking is always so much easier and more comfortable than thinking.

pazimzadeh 3y ago

Life was good when Unison was still being maintained https://blog.panic.com/unison-2/ https://blog.panic.com/unison-2/ https://panic.com/blog/the-future-of-unison/ https://panic.com/blog/the-future-of-unison/ https://www.astraweb.com https://www.astraweb.com is the best provider I know

cbm-vic-20 3y ago

Back In The Day, the barrier to entry was low. Most Unix boxes had the "rn" or "trn" newsreaders installed, and VMS also had one (though I don't recall its name). It was as easy to get into as email.

jtode 3y ago

I haven't looked in a long time, but the last time I did look, there were any number of places you could connect to gratis, but which do not carry binaries groups. A non-binary usenet server is lightweight enough to run on the 80s Internet so the costs of operation without all that storage and retention is pretty minimal.

scelerat 3y ago

> There is way too much friction A lot of the early ISPs, 1993-early 2000s, had free nntp/usenet services. The "friction" of using usenet was not any greater that the friction of launching an email client, an ftp or gopher session, or launching Mosaic. At the time there were many easy-to-use featureful nntp clients across most computing platforms. I remember liking MT-Newswatcher quite a bit as well as Nuntius. The UI of Newswatcher was not too different from an email client or perhaps directory browser. Screenshots from MT-Newswatcher https://smfr.org/mtnw/screenshots.html

evilbob93 3y ago
It's arguable that today the "friction" might be a feature.

876978095789789 3y ago

> As a programmer of over 30 years I still have never used Usenet and the reason is the barrier to entry. There is way too much friction. Really? I'm old enough to remember when Google bought Deja, and with it suddenly came the ability to search the entire Usenet archive going back to its inception, through the Google Groups interface. Being able to search the archives of comp.lang.whatever was a great educational and productivity booster, like Stackoverflow before SO.

jdofaz 3y ago

In the olden times your ISP usually included it like they did with email, the instructions for my old isp still exists though I doubt the news server does http://www.uswest.net/help/newsgroups.html http://www.uswest.net/help/newsgroups.html

jjav 3y ago

> As a programmer of over 30 years... > You need a paid (!) subscription 30 years ago (and I'd say even 20 years ago) every ISP had their own usenet feed just like they had their own email server. It's only fairly recently this has become a bit of a barrier (although as many have noted in this discussion, free ones exist so not much of a barrier). My ISP discontinued their usenet server in 2016, fairly recently. Installing a client is one package-install command away, not exactly a barrier.

glonq 3y ago

~30 years ago, the barrier to entry was minimal. There were many free news servers out there, and it was common for your ISP to offer one. Good client software was easy to find (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort%C3%A9_Agent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort%C3%A9_Agent) And yeah, the best part about usenet was that there were fewer "average people" on there. The Internet was great before AoL connected everybody else to it ;)

lproven 3y ago

> You need a paid (!) subscription to a provider Tell us that you didn't RTFA without saying that you didn't RTFA. By the way, I wrote the article. If you've been around since before Google as you claim, you should know to RTFM and RTFA.

tigereyeTO 3y ago

Sounds like you’re misinformed. Text-only newsgroup servers are free. You only need to use/pay for indexers if you’re scouring many groups for specific keywords. If you’re subscribing to specific text groups you don’t need to search an index for the whole net. You can just scroll to the top and read what you missed since last session The barrier of entry is learning how to use a piece of software like Thunderbird. It’s no larger than email. If you figured that one out, you can figure out newsgroups too. I remember when everyone was deriding “the internet” and “email” as being too cumbersome for an “average person” to figure out, having too many “hoops” to jump through to use it. Thanks for the nostalgia, wackget

LinuxBender 3y ago

A paid subscription is not required for the pure text aspect of Usenet. [1] It is required however to make use of the binary groups which makes sense as those servers use a tremendous amount of bandwidth even by today's standards. [1] - https://www.eternal-september.org/ https://www.eternal-september.org/

StevePerkins 3y ago

The article links to a free Usenet provider. I'm sure there are others also. The purpose for a PAID Usenet provider is for hosting binaries (i.e. piracy). You're paying someone for the bandwidth, and ignore or deal with the DMCA takedown notices. There is little to no reason to have a paid Usenet account just to read or post on pure text forums, and NOT download porn or other pirated content. That was really one of the two things that killed Usenet in the 2000's. One was the rise of phpBB forums, and then Reddit. The other was the seediness of the Usenet binaries scene. As the "legit" users migrated to web-based forums, the pirates made up a larger and larger portion of those staying behind, and eventually the network effort flowed in reverse until critical mass was lost. I deeply miss that old Usenet culture of the 1990's. In comparison to HN and especially Reddit, Usenet was far less reverent, frumpy, and up-its-own-ass politically and socially. At the same time, it's impossible to try to recreate that on a forum today, without it breaking down into nothing but alt-right hate speech. The 1990's was a fun and quirky little period of Internet sanity, made possible only by how small and outside the mainstream the Internet still was.

BeetleB 3y ago
> The purpose for a PAID Usenet provider is for hosting binaries (i.e. piracy). You're paying someone for the bandwidth, and ignore or deal with the DMCA takedown notices. There is little to no reason to have a paid Usenet account just to read or post on pure text forums, and NOT download porn or other pirated content. This may reflect the state today, but back in the late 90's and early 00's, it was not. Even for the pure text forums, you had to pay someone. In the earlier days it was included in the ISP package, so you wouldn't see the costs. Or via your university. But I distinctly remember when my university dropped USENET lots of people complained because they couldn't get free access elsewhere. For me: I used BBS's before I used USENET. BBS groups ("conferences") were much more civil, and had much better discourse. The moderation was very effective. When I moved to USENET, it was quite chaotic by comparison. And then with the onset of spam, I went elsewhere.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  > But I distinctly remember when my university dropped USENET lots of people complained because they couldn't get free access elsewhere. Unless they dropped it _really_ early, there was dejanews/google groups, surely?

troymc 3y ago

The "high" barrier to entry does act as a filter today, but I should add that in the 1990s, it was considered relatively easy, not so different from using email; it's only with the existence of modern social networks that the access steps seem relatively difficult. P.S. For many Usenet groups, you don't need to pay anything to get access.

denton-scratch 3y ago
It's still as easy as setting up email. You have a username, a password, and a hostname for the server. Then you're off to the races.

denton-scratch 3y ago

The article pointed out that Eternal September offers free subscriptions. I'm not sure what an "indexer" is, such that you'd need to subscribe to it; is that some kind of online service like Deja News? I used to just download everything that appeared on the handful of groups that interested me, and store it locally. Then I could do local searches. That "store locally" capability wasn't some bag of bash scripts I cobbled together; I thought all newsreaders could do that natively.

pmarreck 3y ago

As a 51 year old programmer, you really missed out on some cool discussion back in the day. But yes, honestly, I haven't done anything Usenet in years save for the occasional Google result that lands on a Google Groups URL. Honestly it might be worth resurrecting the protocol to run your own Usenet web UI just for weekend funsies.

jjkaczor 3y ago

Having been in the IT industry since 1992 - I did use a free Usenet server, probably provided by my ISP. Used the "comp.*" heirarchy mostly, discussing technical topics and answering questions - in 1996, a publisher (Wiley!) sent me a box of books - apparently I had helped one of their authors and they wanted to thank me. On-one-hand, I would like to try it again - OTOH, I think spam and/or bots would overwhelm it to the point of uselessness.