5 ms·

Since immigrants in Germany are not throwing grenades, it is an unnecessary generalozation. It is also an over simplification of the situation in Sweden. And pr

by hef19898 3y ago

Since immigrants in Germany are not throwing grenades, it is an unnecessary generalozation. It is also an over simplification of the situation in Sweden. And premature, as nothing seems to be known for certain yet. And it is a tiny bit racist, ypur comment I mean.

ipaddr 3y ago
There have been problems with rape and other crimes in Germany. Not sure it's working well either.
tyingq 3y ago
There are some differences. Sweden, for various reasons, seems to cluster immigrants into fewer places with more of them all together. And the clustering creates service shortages for police, social services, jobs, etc. This makes for more kids that should be in school to not be in school, and also higher unemployment than there would be if they were more spread out. That heavy clustering also creates fewer opportunities to integrate with the locals, so the immigrant communities are more insular. All of that makes it easier for extremists to recruit, intimidate, organize, etc.
- horseRad 3y ago
  Do you have any references that Sweden clusters more immigrants to fewer places than anyone else? Housing doesn't just pop out of thin air. We have 3 cities with over 200k in population. Otherwise top 10 is 100k+. Just last year we took in 100k. Do you expect us to just pop up houses uniformly? One here, one there? Of course clusters build with the magnitudes we take in.
  - tyingq 3y ago
    Your Prime Minister talked about it: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/sweden-s-prime-minister-calls-for-end-to-ethnic-enclaves/2668032 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/sweden-s-prime-minister-call... But, that thing you're citing about a limited number of cities that could handle immigration is a good example of why it might be different for Sweden vs Germany.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- DrFlipper 3y ago
  It's hard to imagine that if a huge number of Swedes were dumped in close proximity in Somalia, that they would sit around collecting benefits, forming gangs to beat, rape, and rob the native people, and blame it all on the Somalis and their government for not giving them enough handouts and advantages to succeed. There's some other cause (which can't be said aloud).
  - friend_and_foe 3y ago
    If a bunch of Swedes were dumped in Somalia, the locals would tell them to go fuck themselves and go back to their own country. I don't think the problem here is what you're thinking but not saying. I think the problem is that suckers get took, to be crass. And to continue in that spirit, no self respecting nation of people would spread their buttcheeks and let the whole world have a go. It seems to me the Swedish have outlived their lifespan as a nation. I suppose it's the natural order of things, meek, defenseless tribes and nations don't last very long.
dist-epoch 3y ago
Police in Germany is a bit more strict about grenades than the one in Sweden. In bigger German train stations you regularly see machine-gun armed police.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Sub-machine guns, I have yet to see police carrying MG3s... And that has nothing to do with illegal hand grenades...
  - fluoridation 3y ago
    If the distinction is irrelevant, "machine gun" is an appropriate term to refer to any fully automatic firearm.
    - adammarples 3y ago
      Machine guns fire rifle cartridges
Pungsnigel 3y ago
Not sure how it's racist. It's exclusively done by immigrants in Sweden? Surely that's a factor that is relevant to the discussion?
lynx23 3y ago
You are right, refugees in germany seem to prefer stabbing minor girls with knives. Watch out for ghetto streets, there might be grenades coming soon.
- hef19898 3y ago
  And there I was, believing our immigrant were all rapists. At last that's what our far right wants us to believe... Isn't stabbing the UK-based immigrant problem?
Gareth321 3y ago
Migrants in Sweden are far over-represented in crime. Especially violent crime. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338563093_Migrants_and_Crime_in_Sweden_in_the_Twenty-First_Century https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338563093_Migrants_... All of the bombings are gang related, and gang members in Sweden have a disproportionately foreign background. There is nothing to gain here by pretending this isn't happening. People are literally dying. No one mentioned any races, and conflating "immigrant" with any particular race is misleading at best.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Not disputing the nbers, why would I? But painting it as problem purely caused by migration, and I highly doubt we talk about people from Germany, Denmark or Norway, has some xenophobic undertones, doesn't it?
  - Gareth321 3y ago
    The gang crime is, almost entirely, driven by 1st or 2nd generation migrants. https://www.gulf-insider.com/almost-all-gang-members-in-sweden-are-either-1st-or-2nd-generation-migrants/ https://www.gulf-insider.com/almost-all-gang-members-in-swed... There is no use in splitting hairs on this one. The issue is clear.
    - colpabar 3y ago
      Your sources aren't worth reading because I don't like the conclusions they support. /s
  - slily 3y ago
    Given the very loose definition of racism and xenophobia these days, you may be right, but in the same sense that you can call a woman sexist for not wanting to be followed by a man when walking alone at night. Calling her a sexist repeatedly does not make her behavior unfounded or unreasonable.
marginalia_nu 3y ago
As far as I understand, it's a relatively global operation. Swedish gangs essentially franchise the business model from the Mexican cartels. Swedish immigrants are susceptible to this because Sweden did a spectacularly poor job at integrating these people. The idea was to liberally accept immigrants to solve the demographic crisis and the pension system, but along the way most of the immigrants who moved to the country were let down and given fairly shitty life prospects. Turns out these people aren't filled with grateful joy over having undignified dead end jobs and living in dinky apartments in segregated communities in derelict apartment buildings from the '70s. Quelle surprise.
- shrimp_emoji 3y ago
  These are not American-style (overseas) immigrants, with relative wealth and degrees. These are poor refugees who might never have wanted to live in the West anyway. Integrating them in an advanced European monoculture sounds like an impossible social engineering task, no?
  - marginalia_nu 3y ago
    Yeah, I think the project was pretty naive. I think there has been a somewhat conceited attitude among the Swedish political class to assume that Swedish values and ideals are an inevitable logical conclusion from enlightenment, and if someone doesn't share these values, it's because the poor souls haven't been informed of the correct way to think yet, and when encountering superior Swedish values, they willingly abandon their unenlightened opinions and assume the enlightened values of Sweden in their place. Well as it turns out these values are a logical conclusion only if you've been indoctrinated in them since you were a toddler.
  - eesmith 3y ago
    Surely "monoculture" is an exaggeration. The Swedish population includes a large number of Finns, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden says even 50 years ago 10% of the population was born to foreign born mothers. If Sweden isn't a monoculture then your argument suggests integration should be possible, yes? That doesn't mean it would be easy to integrate refugees. Just look at how hard it was for Miami to integrate Cuban refugees. Anti-Castro extremists, for example, set off car bombs in the 1970s and 1980s. http://cuban-exile.com/doc_051-075/doc0073.html http://cuban-exile.com/doc_051-075/doc0073.html Knowing this, yes, other European countries should have done more, to helped share the effort needed. To make sure I understand the topic, I researched more about Sweden's multicultural history. https://www.informationsverige.se/en/om-sverige/individens-rattigheter-och-skyldigheter/rattigheter-for-nationella-minoriteter-och-urfolk.html https://www.informationsverige.se/en/om-sverige/individens-r... says "There are five recognised historical national minorities in Sweden: Jews, Roma people, Sami people, Sweden Finns, and Tornedalians" and historically they were deliberately oppressed by monocultural policies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornedalians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornedalians gives one example: > Tornedalians were the targets of extensive so-called "racial biology" and swedification policies. In the early-to-mid 1900s Herman Lundborg and others from the State Institute for Racial Biology performed skull measurements on Tornedalians, with Lundborg performing the first measurements in 1913. At the same time speaking Finnish in schools was banned in parts of the country, including the Torne Valley. This ban was only revoked by the Riksdag in 1957. How does that fit into your concept of "monoculture" in Sweden?
lucasRW 3y ago
So if it's "racist" you are implying that you identified a certain "race" while the comment was mentioning immigrants, which could well be white but apparently you have other non-white immigrants in mind and therefore came yourself to a "racist" conclusion ?
lucasRW 3y ago
[flagged]
- hef19898 3y ago
  Taking this comment thread into account, I'll just add submissions about gang violance in Sweden to the list of submissions I routinely flag. Along with discussions about the homeless and crime in SF. None of the comment under those submissions are worthy of what HN is supposed to be.
DrFlipper 3y ago
[flagged]

ipaddr 3y ago

There have been problems with rape and other crimes in Germany. Not sure it's working well either.

tyingq 3y ago

There are some differences. Sweden, for various reasons, seems to cluster immigrants into fewer places with more of them all together. And the clustering creates service shortages for police, social services, jobs, etc. This makes for more kids that should be in school to not be in school, and also higher unemployment than there would be if they were more spread out. That heavy clustering also creates fewer opportunities to integrate with the locals, so the immigrant communities are more insular. All of that makes it easier for extremists to recruit, intimidate, organize, etc.

horseRad 3y ago
Do you have any references that Sweden clusters more immigrants to fewer places than anyone else? Housing doesn't just pop out of thin air. We have 3 cities with over 200k in population. Otherwise top 10 is 100k+. Just last year we took in 100k. Do you expect us to just pop up houses uniformly? One here, one there? Of course clusters build with the magnitudes we take in.
- tyingq 3y ago
  Your Prime Minister talked about it: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/sweden-s-prime-minister-calls-for-end-to-ethnic-enclaves/2668032 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/sweden-s-prime-minister-call... But, that thing you're citing about a limited number of cities that could handle immigration is a good example of why it might be different for Sweden vs Germany.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
DrFlipper 3y ago
It's hard to imagine that if a huge number of Swedes were dumped in close proximity in Somalia, that they would sit around collecting benefits, forming gangs to beat, rape, and rob the native people, and blame it all on the Somalis and their government for not giving them enough handouts and advantages to succeed. There's some other cause (which can't be said aloud).
- friend_and_foe 3y ago
  If a bunch of Swedes were dumped in Somalia, the locals would tell them to go fuck themselves and go back to their own country. I don't think the problem here is what you're thinking but not saying. I think the problem is that suckers get took, to be crass. And to continue in that spirit, no self respecting nation of people would spread their buttcheeks and let the whole world have a go. It seems to me the Swedish have outlived their lifespan as a nation. I suppose it's the natural order of things, meek, defenseless tribes and nations don't last very long.

dist-epoch 3y ago

Police in Germany is a bit more strict about grenades than the one in Sweden. In bigger German train stations you regularly see machine-gun armed police.

hef19898 3y ago
Sub-machine guns, I have yet to see police carrying MG3s... And that has nothing to do with illegal hand grenades...
- fluoridation 3y ago
  If the distinction is irrelevant, "machine gun" is an appropriate term to refer to any fully automatic firearm.
  - adammarples 3y ago
    Machine guns fire rifle cartridges

Pungsnigel 3y ago

Not sure how it's racist. It's exclusively done by immigrants in Sweden? Surely that's a factor that is relevant to the discussion?

lynx23 3y ago

You are right, refugees in germany seem to prefer stabbing minor girls with knives. Watch out for ghetto streets, there might be grenades coming soon.

hef19898 3y ago
And there I was, believing our immigrant were all rapists. At last that's what our far right wants us to believe... Isn't stabbing the UK-based immigrant problem?

Gareth321 3y ago

Migrants in Sweden are far over-represented in crime. Especially violent crime. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338563093_Migrants_and_Crime_in_Sweden_in_the_Twenty-First_Century https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338563093_Migrants_... All of the bombings are gang related, and gang members in Sweden have a disproportionately foreign background. There is nothing to gain here by pretending this isn't happening. People are literally dying. No one mentioned any races, and conflating "immigrant" with any particular race is misleading at best.

hef19898 3y ago
Not disputing the nbers, why would I? But painting it as problem purely caused by migration, and I highly doubt we talk about people from Germany, Denmark or Norway, has some xenophobic undertones, doesn't it?
- Gareth321 3y ago
  The gang crime is, almost entirely, driven by 1st or 2nd generation migrants. https://www.gulf-insider.com/almost-all-gang-members-in-sweden-are-either-1st-or-2nd-generation-migrants/ https://www.gulf-insider.com/almost-all-gang-members-in-swed... There is no use in splitting hairs on this one. The issue is clear.
  - colpabar 3y ago
    Your sources aren't worth reading because I don't like the conclusions they support. /s
- slily 3y ago
  Given the very loose definition of racism and xenophobia these days, you may be right, but in the same sense that you can call a woman sexist for not wanting to be followed by a man when walking alone at night. Calling her a sexist repeatedly does not make her behavior unfounded or unreasonable.

marginalia_nu 3y ago

As far as I understand, it's a relatively global operation. Swedish gangs essentially franchise the business model from the Mexican cartels. Swedish immigrants are susceptible to this because Sweden did a spectacularly poor job at integrating these people. The idea was to liberally accept immigrants to solve the demographic crisis and the pension system, but along the way most of the immigrants who moved to the country were let down and given fairly shitty life prospects. Turns out these people aren't filled with grateful joy over having undignified dead end jobs and living in dinky apartments in segregated communities in derelict apartment buildings from the '70s. Quelle surprise.

shrimp_emoji 3y ago
These are not American-style (overseas) immigrants, with relative wealth and degrees. These are poor refugees who might never have wanted to live in the West anyway. Integrating them in an advanced European monoculture sounds like an impossible social engineering task, no?
- marginalia_nu 3y ago
  Yeah, I think the project was pretty naive. I think there has been a somewhat conceited attitude among the Swedish political class to assume that Swedish values and ideals are an inevitable logical conclusion from enlightenment, and if someone doesn't share these values, it's because the poor souls haven't been informed of the correct way to think yet, and when encountering superior Swedish values, they willingly abandon their unenlightened opinions and assume the enlightened values of Sweden in their place. Well as it turns out these values are a logical conclusion only if you've been indoctrinated in them since you were a toddler.
- eesmith 3y ago
  Surely "monoculture" is an exaggeration. The Swedish population includes a large number of Finns, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden says even 50 years ago 10% of the population was born to foreign born mothers. If Sweden isn't a monoculture then your argument suggests integration should be possible, yes? That doesn't mean it would be easy to integrate refugees. Just look at how hard it was for Miami to integrate Cuban refugees. Anti-Castro extremists, for example, set off car bombs in the 1970s and 1980s. http://cuban-exile.com/doc_051-075/doc0073.html http://cuban-exile.com/doc_051-075/doc0073.html Knowing this, yes, other European countries should have done more, to helped share the effort needed. To make sure I understand the topic, I researched more about Sweden's multicultural history. https://www.informationsverige.se/en/om-sverige/individens-rattigheter-och-skyldigheter/rattigheter-for-nationella-minoriteter-och-urfolk.html https://www.informationsverige.se/en/om-sverige/individens-r... says "There are five recognised historical national minorities in Sweden: Jews, Roma people, Sami people, Sweden Finns, and Tornedalians" and historically they were deliberately oppressed by monocultural policies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornedalians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornedalians gives one example: > Tornedalians were the targets of extensive so-called "racial biology" and swedification policies. In the early-to-mid 1900s Herman Lundborg and others from the State Institute for Racial Biology performed skull measurements on Tornedalians, with Lundborg performing the first measurements in 1913. At the same time speaking Finnish in schools was banned in parts of the country, including the Torne Valley. This ban was only revoked by the Riksdag in 1957. How does that fit into your concept of "monoculture" in Sweden?

lucasRW 3y ago

So if it's "racist" you are implying that you identified a certain "race" while the comment was mentioning immigrants, which could well be white but apparently you have other non-white immigrants in mind and therefore came yourself to a "racist" conclusion ?

lucasRW 3y ago

[flagged]

hef19898 3y ago
Taking this comment thread into account, I'll just add submissions about gang violance in Sweden to the list of submissions I routinely flag. Along with discussions about the homeless and crime in SF. None of the comment under those submissions are worthy of what HN is supposed to be.

DrFlipper 3y ago

[flagged]