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Woof. An EV battery produces between 2.5 and 16 metric tons of CO2. About 9% of emissions for a combustion engine vehicle is in the initial manufacturing alone

by culi 3y ago

Woof. An EV battery produces between 2.5 and 16 metric tons of CO2. About 9% of emissions for a combustion engine vehicle is in the initial manufacturing alone (compared to ~35% for an EV). An EV's battery is by far the most polluting in the process and manufacturing of the battery alone produces more emissions than the entire manufacturing process of an average combustible engine vehicle. If people are replacing their batteries every 8 years, we _REALLY_ need to optimize our grid and figure out a real solution to recycling EV batteries ASAP

tw04 3y ago
>If people are replacing their batteries every 8 years, we _REALLY_ need to optimize our grid and figure out a real solution to recycling EV batteries ASAP We already have both figured out and have for quite some time, at this point it's just a combination of scaling up (for recycling), and political will for rapid expansion of renewables and bringing new nuclear plants online. https://techcrunch.com/2023/08/29/redwood-materials-raises-1b-to-expand-us-battery-supply-chain/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/08/29/redwood-materials-raises-1...
- XorNot 3y ago
  Recycling EV batteries would continue to produce CO2 (by the shady metrics people use to attach CO2 production to a process which does not include any emissions directly from the manufacturing process, unlike say, concrete production).
xenadu02 3y ago
But people aren't replacing their batteries every 8 years. Modern solar panels are usually rated to 90%+ production at 20 years. Mine are rated for 92%. It turns out all the sturm und drang about having to replace solar panels and "oh-my-god manufacturing emissions will outstrip the benefits produced over their lifetime" ... was bunk. Rounded down: no one ever replaces their solar panels. In all likelyhood even 100 year old panels will still be producing >50% of their rated output. For the rare case where someone replaces panels the old panels are re-sold to a new user... they are very rarely junked. Batteries don't last quite as long but they have similar characteristics. People forget about range anxiety and just drive the vehicle. It turns out most people don't see capacity reductions anywhere near the dire predictions. They often don't notice the capacity reduction nor care even when they do notice. Even when someone wrecks an EV the batteries are often not recycled - people buy and use them either as replacements for their own vehicles or for power backup systems. Fleet stats are in the early stages but so far even after driving for 10+ years most Tesla owners are on the original battery and happy with it.
- culi 3y ago
  > they are very rarely junked. mmmm hmmm As interest in clean energy surges, used solar panels are going straight into landfill https://hbr.org/2021/06/the-dark-side-of-solar-power https://hbr.org/2021/06/the-dark-side-of-solar-power The Solar Boom Will Create Millions of Tons of Junk Panels https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-solar-boom-will-create-millions-of-tons-of-junk-panels-11651658402 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-solar-boom-will-create-mill... The Global South’s solar e-waste problem https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/10/03/the-global-souths-solar-e-waste-problem/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/10/03/the-global-souths-sol... Rising power costs worsening solar panel e-waste crisis as people replace panels prematurely https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-08/rising-power-costs-worsening-solar-panel-waste-in-landfill/102444862 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-08/rising-power-costs-wo... Solar recycling is broken, but there’s a plan to fix it https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/29/22857157/solar-recycling-new-better-method https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/29/22857157/solar-recycling... Are solar panels the next e-waste? https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/sep/03/solar-panels-ewaste https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/sep/03/solar-pa...
  - xenadu02 3y ago
    My information comes from installers and dealers of used panels. The rate of solar panel replacement is extremely low. Very few people replace their panels. Modern panels also don't degrade very quickly, often warrantied for less than 0.5%/year. Most people who do replacements are the much smaller number of early adopters. These are just facts. The supposed "avalanche" of old panels has not appeared. In other words if you compare # of panels produced per year to # of panels being thrown away it is more favorable than most products. Not that any of the articles you posted even make an attempt to run those numbers. I stand by my point: both solar panels and batteries have been steadily improving year after year. They last longer than people think and are not creating a tide of waste as the nay-sayers keep predicting in order to squash these technologies to promote burning fossil fuels.
  - gaganyaan 3y ago
    Your first link is speculative, and just assumes that old solar panels are going to the landfill, which is exactly what OP is saying won't happen. Are your other links relevant at all either?
natch 3y ago
The crossover is 1.5 years, so EVs are a win from then onward.
kbos87 3y ago
>> About 9% of emissions for a combustion engine vehicle is in the initial manufacturing alone (compared to ~35% for an EV) Genuinely asking - 9% of what vs. 35% of what? Lifetime carbon emissions for each respective vehicle, or something else?

by culi 3y ago

tw04 3y ago

>If people are replacing their batteries every 8 years, we _REALLY_ need to optimize our grid and figure out a real solution to recycling EV batteries ASAP We already have both figured out and have for quite some time, at this point it's just a combination of scaling up (for recycling), and political will for rapid expansion of renewables and bringing new nuclear plants online. https://techcrunch.com/2023/08/29/redwood-materials-raises-1b-to-expand-us-battery-supply-chain/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/08/29/redwood-materials-raises-1...

XorNot 3y ago
Recycling EV batteries would continue to produce CO2 (by the shady metrics people use to attach CO2 production to a process which does not include any emissions directly from the manufacturing process, unlike say, concrete production).

xenadu02 3y ago

But people aren't replacing their batteries every 8 years. Modern solar panels are usually rated to 90%+ production at 20 years. Mine are rated for 92%. It turns out all the sturm und drang about having to replace solar panels and "oh-my-god manufacturing emissions will outstrip the benefits produced over their lifetime" ... was bunk. Rounded down: no one ever replaces their solar panels. In all likelyhood even 100 year old panels will still be producing >50% of their rated output. For the rare case where someone replaces panels the old panels are re-sold to a new user... they are very rarely junked. Batteries don't last quite as long but they have similar characteristics. People forget about range anxiety and just drive the vehicle. It turns out most people don't see capacity reductions anywhere near the dire predictions. They often don't notice the capacity reduction nor care even when they do notice. Even when someone wrecks an EV the batteries are often not recycled - people buy and use them either as replacements for their own vehicles or for power backup systems. Fleet stats are in the early stages but so far even after driving for 10+ years most Tesla owners are on the original battery and happy with it.

culi 3y ago
> they are very rarely junked. mmmm hmmm As interest in clean energy surges, used solar panels are going straight into landfill https://hbr.org/2021/06/the-dark-side-of-solar-power https://hbr.org/2021/06/the-dark-side-of-solar-power The Solar Boom Will Create Millions of Tons of Junk Panels https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-solar-boom-will-create-millions-of-tons-of-junk-panels-11651658402 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-solar-boom-will-create-mill... The Global South’s solar e-waste problem https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/10/03/the-global-souths-solar-e-waste-problem/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/10/03/the-global-souths-sol... Rising power costs worsening solar panel e-waste crisis as people replace panels prematurely https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-08/rising-power-costs-worsening-solar-panel-waste-in-landfill/102444862 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-08/rising-power-costs-wo... Solar recycling is broken, but there’s a plan to fix it https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/29/22857157/solar-recycling-new-better-method https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/29/22857157/solar-recycling... Are solar panels the next e-waste? https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/sep/03/solar-panels-ewaste https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/sep/03/solar-pa...
- xenadu02 3y ago
  My information comes from installers and dealers of used panels. The rate of solar panel replacement is extremely low. Very few people replace their panels. Modern panels also don't degrade very quickly, often warrantied for less than 0.5%/year. Most people who do replacements are the much smaller number of early adopters. These are just facts. The supposed "avalanche" of old panels has not appeared. In other words if you compare # of panels produced per year to # of panels being thrown away it is more favorable than most products. Not that any of the articles you posted even make an attempt to run those numbers. I stand by my point: both solar panels and batteries have been steadily improving year after year. They last longer than people think and are not creating a tide of waste as the nay-sayers keep predicting in order to squash these technologies to promote burning fossil fuels.
- gaganyaan 3y ago
  Your first link is speculative, and just assumes that old solar panels are going to the landfill, which is exactly what OP is saying won't happen. Are your other links relevant at all either?

natch 3y ago

The crossover is 1.5 years, so EVs are a win from then onward.

kbos87 3y ago

>> About 9% of emissions for a combustion engine vehicle is in the initial manufacturing alone (compared to ~35% for an EV) Genuinely asking - 9% of what vs. 35% of what? Lifetime carbon emissions for each respective vehicle, or something else?