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> People dont choose to have kids based on how they like to spend their time. I'm not sure I agree, at least universally. How do you decide for children withou

by sho_hn 3y ago

> People dont choose to have kids based on how they like to spend their time. I'm not sure I agree, at least universally. How do you decide for children without thinking about the changes it'll make to your daily life and whether that's something you want to be doing? Of course there's plenty of people who have children because they feel it's expected of them, or economic necessity, or other external reasons.

nonethewiser 3y ago
Its called sacrifice. Enduring inconvenience or discomfort in favor of some greater cause. That’s not to say everyone should have kids or feel this way. But it’s ridiculous to suggest some people just like video games, or traveling, and others like missing work deadlines to care for their sick child (or everything else that goes with raising kids).
- kredd 3y ago
  Sacrifice is a choice in this scenario. I think, I agree with the OP above, that one chooses to not to make that sacrifice (e.g. lifestyle change). Just the value of the sacrifice has been getting lower and lower every year for younger people.
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    The value of the sacrifice hasn’t changed, just the perceived value.
    - paulryanrogers 3y ago
      The amount one must sacrifice is rising, regardless of the pay off. Everyone has their own threshold, yet the minimum needed to birth and raise kids is going up while buying power is decreasing.
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    My point is people are choosing kids because of a deeper responsibility and meaning. Not because the experience of raising kids is more fun than hanging out with friends or other alternatives. The parent in this scenario is not maximizing their enjoyment or personal satisfaction in the way someone choosing their hobbies is. That distinction did not seem observed when comparing the choice to raise children with the choice to spend free time other ways.
    - devbent 3y ago
      I think your entire thesis is wrong. People are not having kids because they have good alternatives now. International travel is affordable for more and more people, regularly going to fine dining establishments is something accessible to most American software engineers, and the people left having kids are the ones either too poor to afford those good things anyways, or people who are knowingly giving them up in exchange for expected joy from raising a child.
      - ido 3y ago
        International travel and fine dining is absolutely not comparable to having kids in terms of the returns you get on these activities. I don't mean quantitatively, but qualitatively - you don't get the same kind of satisfaction from both. The only thing I'd say is somewhat qualitatively comparable is being a in a loving relationship.
        devbent 3y ago
        > International travel and fine dining is absolutely not comparable to having kids in terms of the returns you get on these activities. The returns are guaranteed, whereas a child can end up having negative returns at an almost endless scale. The potential downsides to having a child are endless, the upside is limited and finite. Also w/o children retiring early is doable for the financially responsible, whereas having even a single child makes that difficult. Being financially independent at 40 or so allows for a lot of options for self fulfillment. An almost endless array of meaningful causes around the world are in dire need of help. The tl;dr is that for a lot of people the choice comes down to "travel the world and have sex on beaches while eating fine food" or "unknown baby that might bring joy or potentially ruin your life." Is it any wonder rational people are choosing the path that allows them to travel, eat well, be financially stable, and find meaningful hobbies and activities? Again, I believe what it comes down to now is that people have a choice. It isn't "get married -> have kids" but rather "find partner, figure out what to do next". Heck marriage rates are also plummeting (which IMHO is bad news for social stability). The lack of social support certainly makes the choice of having kids harder, but my #1 ask isn't government funded daycare, it would be a world where having a large familial support structure is the norm. Honestly the hardest part of having a kid is that without family nearby, there is no down time. Government programs can't help that capitalism spread families to the winds.

by sho_hn 3y ago

nonethewiser 3y ago

Its called sacrifice. Enduring inconvenience or discomfort in favor of some greater cause. That’s not to say everyone should have kids or feel this way. But it’s ridiculous to suggest some people just like video games, or traveling, and others like missing work deadlines to care for their sick child (or everything else that goes with raising kids).

kredd 3y ago
Sacrifice is a choice in this scenario. I think, I agree with the OP above, that one chooses to not to make that sacrifice (e.g. lifestyle change). Just the value of the sacrifice has been getting lower and lower every year for younger people.
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  The value of the sacrifice hasn’t changed, just the perceived value.
  - paulryanrogers 3y ago
    The amount one must sacrifice is rising, regardless of the pay off. Everyone has their own threshold, yet the minimum needed to birth and raise kids is going up while buying power is decreasing.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  My point is people are choosing kids because of a deeper responsibility and meaning. Not because the experience of raising kids is more fun than hanging out with friends or other alternatives. The parent in this scenario is not maximizing their enjoyment or personal satisfaction in the way someone choosing their hobbies is. That distinction did not seem observed when comparing the choice to raise children with the choice to spend free time other ways.
  - devbent 3y ago
    I think your entire thesis is wrong. People are not having kids because they have good alternatives now. International travel is affordable for more and more people, regularly going to fine dining establishments is something accessible to most American software engineers, and the people left having kids are the ones either too poor to afford those good things anyways, or people who are knowingly giving them up in exchange for expected joy from raising a child.
    - ido 3y ago
      International travel and fine dining is absolutely not comparable to having kids in terms of the returns you get on these activities. I don't mean quantitatively, but qualitatively - you don't get the same kind of satisfaction from both. The only thing I'd say is somewhat qualitatively comparable is being a in a loving relationship.
      - devbent 3y ago
        > International travel and fine dining is absolutely not comparable to having kids in terms of the returns you get on these activities. The returns are guaranteed, whereas a child can end up having negative returns at an almost endless scale. The potential downsides to having a child are endless, the upside is limited and finite. Also w/o children retiring early is doable for the financially responsible, whereas having even a single child makes that difficult. Being financially independent at 40 or so allows for a lot of options for self fulfillment. An almost endless array of meaningful causes around the world are in dire need of help. The tl;dr is that for a lot of people the choice comes down to "travel the world and have sex on beaches while eating fine food" or "unknown baby that might bring joy or potentially ruin your life." Is it any wonder rational people are choosing the path that allows them to travel, eat well, be financially stable, and find meaningful hobbies and activities? Again, I believe what it comes down to now is that people have a choice. It isn't "get married -> have kids" but rather "find partner, figure out what to do next". Heck marriage rates are also plummeting (which IMHO is bad news for social stability). The lack of social support certainly makes the choice of having kids harder, but my #1 ask isn't government funded daycare, it would be a world where having a large familial support structure is the norm. Honestly the hardest part of having a kid is that without family nearby, there is no down time. Government programs can't help that capitalism spread families to the winds.