4 ms·

See, the thing is that I cannot entirely shake the feeling that part of this stance is a certain laziness/complacency, essentially a lack of interest in any cha

by sho_hn 3y ago

See, the thing is that I cannot entirely shake the feeling that part of this stance is a certain laziness/complacency, essentially a lack of interest in any challenging activities. What I mean is: A lot of the people who come down against child-rearing for lifestyle reasons assign a lot of value to things they'd rather do instead because they provide "great experiences I'd miss out on because I won't have time or money anymore" like "traveling". Which is of course true, having kids is a trade-of. But doesn't raising kids also provide a big set of exciting experiences you are trading-of against? Sure, you can prefer one or the other at will, and it could absolutely be true that your pick is best for you. But I'll say that my friends who are into activities/experiences that provide challenge (e.g. sports, adventuring, what have you) also are often into having kids. That makes me wonder if there's not something to cultivating the kind of experiences you seek to have.

FreshStart 3y ago
Beehiveourall hacked to go against most basic instinct as proof of concept. Social engineering progress,but to offer no api for the hacker is selected for. Those with api go into the catcentration camp. The final conflict emerges abstract organisms (companies) vs unhackable societys trying to dislodge lifeblood (workforce) from these societies whole contributing nothing back.
toomuchtodo 3y ago
> But doesn't raising kids also provide a big set of exciting experiences you are trading-of against? Isn't this just FOMO? Some people will enjoy the experience of raising kids, some will not. Is it not better to regret not having kids than to have them and regret having them? https://www.today.com/health/child-free-adults-are-happy-parents-study-finds-today-t223858 https://www.today.com/health/child-free-adults-are-happy-par... https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0252528 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
- sho_hn 3y ago
  > Isn't this just FOMO? I'd say plenty of people do things because they can envision it might be great, not because they feel FOMO. Do you never look forward to things without FOMO being the cause? It also depends on how much of a reasonable idea you have about what you'd be getting yourself into, e.g. from participating in siblings raising children or other opportunities.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  I care for my children because they need it and are mine, not because they are my preferred hobby.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    I don't doubt that, but speaking as someone building a non profit in stealth that covers the cost of permanent birth control for folks who can't get it completely covered by health insurance (or who have to rely on medical tourism to obtain it), I've spoken to many folks who adamantly don't want children and not because they are lazy or don't want a challenge. Kids are a choice, not a mandatory checkbox. That is the thesis.
    - sho_hn 3y ago
      > Kids are a choice, not a mandatory checkbox. That is the thesis. One I certainly agree with.
    - nonethewiser 3y ago
      You misunderstand my point. > Some people will enjoy the experience of raising kids, some will not. Thats not why people have kids. Even people that have kids (and dont regret it) would like to spend their time on other things if they could. People dont choose to have kids based on how they like to spend their time.
      - devbent 3y ago
        > People dont choose to have kids based on how they like to spend their time. I did, I made a conscious thoughtful decision that I'd be trading off stuff I wanted to do and taking care of a child instead.
      - sho_hn 3y ago
        > People dont choose to have kids based on how they like to spend their time. I'm not sure I agree, at least universally. How do you decide for children without thinking about the changes it'll make to your daily life and whether that's something you want to be doing? Of course there's plenty of people who have children because they feel it's expected of them, or economic necessity, or other external reasons.
jwells89 3y ago
I see it being more about risk than anything. Couples take on all sorts of challenging hobbies and endeavors on a regular basis, some requiring years to build up and master. The difference is that with most of those things, they're not walking a tightrope and putting the wellbeing of another person in the balance by doing so. Many couples would be putting themselves at much higher risk of financial ruin by having kids and making sure they're properly cared for.
- sho_hn 3y ago
  I agree with this. There's sadly too many places where society & co don't help mitigate and minimize the risk, either, and I absolutely respect people who feel the risk to themselves or the children is undue.
kredd 3y ago
> But doesn't raising kids also provide a big set of exciting experiences you are trading-of against? Maybe for you, but the value proposition isn’t there for me. There’s no indication that the world is willing to fix its global problems (climate change, housing problems and etc.), why would I also subscribe my child to this “fun”? It is weird to write that sentence, as I am generally a fairly optimistic person. But “let me sacrifice a ton, for a decent chance of misery of myself and my offspring” doesn’t sound right to me. I was about to write a paragraph how my friends also like challenging activities, except having a child. But I couldn’t make my brain to compare “having a child” to a “challenging” activity. At the end, it’s one of the things, where you either want it or not. If you want people to want it, get the older generations to make a sacrifice for us and somehow fix the current socio-economic problems that’s discouraging the women.
- sho_hn 3y ago
  The "challenging activity" stuff comes from the fact that my brain just can't compute the "I'd rather have all these great experiences than having kids"-type statements and not seeing any potential for great experiences in child-rearing, especially when those experiences often seem to be a lot more copy-paste. "Challenging" also maybe doesn't quite capture what I meant. Do you know how you sometimes have to bike somewhere two hours on a slow, heavy MTB that makes it a slog for a 15min downhill descent? It's more that kind of challenge.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  I have never seen this sort of extreme existential pessimism in real life (not online). Altering major life decisions like having children based on fears of a negative future. Im not sure if its just more commonly expressed online or if its more common in other place (Europe maybe?) or different age groups (teens or young adults?) but if I asserted this to people locally they would think im nuts. Another possibility is this isn’t actually the difference between you wanting kids or not. Perhaps this is an oversimplified reason, but Im taking you at your word.
  - OccamsMirror 3y ago
    As someone with kids I can tell that you I often wonder if it was the right thing to do. Have I brought them into a world which will deliver them misery? Are the opportunities that were available to me, and even more so my parents, gone now? The evidence is looking grim. The prognosis is not good. This world is going to shit and the billionaires in charge don’t give a single fuck.
nonethewiser 3y ago
There are lots of things people prefer doing that arent the best for them.
famahar 3y ago
Raising a child is a whole lifestyle change. It's a long term commitment and a whole shift in almost every priority in your life. Viewing child care as some challenge that only non-lazy people do is quite a stretch.
- sho_hn 3y ago
  You have to see it in context: I'm wondering what leads specifically people who feel that generally speaking they could afford to have children and direction change if they wanted to, to prefer one set of priorities and experiences over another. Keep in mind I'm responded to a comment that speculated on which choices lead to a "more fulfilling" life, which means it's a decision couched in a certain amount of safety and freedom. IMHO that set direction a bit and begged the question. If you make it specifically about "more fulfilling", other branches of discussion (e.g. whether having children is a good idea for them or the planet) are at least partially taken off the table already. If you decide against children for one of those reasons, you don't even need to feel addressed.
  - famahar 3y ago
    You're right, framing the discussion around a "more fulfilling" life can limit other important aspects. People are highly complex. Ultimately I think the choice to raise a child comes down to an alignment with a huge set values and circumstances which are the result of countless factors.
thefz 3y ago
> See, the thing is that I cannot entirely shake the feeling that part of this stance is a certain laziness/complacency, essentially a lack of interest in any challenging activities. This mentality of "I'm a mom, what's your superpower?" really irritates me. For what you know, I could be fitter, smarter, more interesting that you and embrace challenge every day of my life. But having a child would always put you a step above, because it's oh, so challenging.

by sho_hn 3y ago

FreshStart 3y ago

Beehiveourall hacked to go against most basic instinct as proof of concept. Social engineering progress,but to offer no api for the hacker is selected for. Those with api go into the catcentration camp. The final conflict emerges abstract organisms (companies) vs unhackable societys trying to dislodge lifeblood (workforce) from these societies whole contributing nothing back.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

> But doesn't raising kids also provide a big set of exciting experiences you are trading-of against? Isn't this just FOMO? Some people will enjoy the experience of raising kids, some will not. Is it not better to regret not having kids than to have them and regret having them? https://www.today.com/health/child-free-adults-are-happy-parents-study-finds-today-t223858 https://www.today.com/health/child-free-adults-are-happy-par... https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0252528 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

sho_hn 3y ago
> Isn't this just FOMO? I'd say plenty of people do things because they can envision it might be great, not because they feel FOMO. Do you never look forward to things without FOMO being the cause? It also depends on how much of a reasonable idea you have about what you'd be getting yourself into, e.g. from participating in siblings raising children or other opportunities.
nonethewiser 3y ago
I care for my children because they need it and are mine, not because they are my preferred hobby.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  I don't doubt that, but speaking as someone building a non profit in stealth that covers the cost of permanent birth control for folks who can't get it completely covered by health insurance (or who have to rely on medical tourism to obtain it), I've spoken to many folks who adamantly don't want children and not because they are lazy or don't want a challenge. Kids are a choice, not a mandatory checkbox. That is the thesis.
  - sho_hn 3y ago
    > Kids are a choice, not a mandatory checkbox. That is the thesis. One I certainly agree with.
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    You misunderstand my point. > Some people will enjoy the experience of raising kids, some will not. Thats not why people have kids. Even people that have kids (and dont regret it) would like to spend their time on other things if they could. People dont choose to have kids based on how they like to spend their time.
    - devbent 3y ago
      > People dont choose to have kids based on how they like to spend their time. I did, I made a conscious thoughtful decision that I'd be trading off stuff I wanted to do and taking care of a child instead.
    - sho_hn 3y ago
      > People dont choose to have kids based on how they like to spend their time. I'm not sure I agree, at least universally. How do you decide for children without thinking about the changes it'll make to your daily life and whether that's something you want to be doing? Of course there's plenty of people who have children because they feel it's expected of them, or economic necessity, or other external reasons.

jwells89 3y ago

I see it being more about risk than anything. Couples take on all sorts of challenging hobbies and endeavors on a regular basis, some requiring years to build up and master. The difference is that with most of those things, they're not walking a tightrope and putting the wellbeing of another person in the balance by doing so. Many couples would be putting themselves at much higher risk of financial ruin by having kids and making sure they're properly cared for.

sho_hn 3y ago
I agree with this. There's sadly too many places where society & co don't help mitigate and minimize the risk, either, and I absolutely respect people who feel the risk to themselves or the children is undue.

kredd 3y ago

> But doesn't raising kids also provide a big set of exciting experiences you are trading-of against? Maybe for you, but the value proposition isn’t there for me. There’s no indication that the world is willing to fix its global problems (climate change, housing problems and etc.), why would I also subscribe my child to this “fun”? It is weird to write that sentence, as I am generally a fairly optimistic person. But “let me sacrifice a ton, for a decent chance of misery of myself and my offspring” doesn’t sound right to me. I was about to write a paragraph how my friends also like challenging activities, except having a child. But I couldn’t make my brain to compare “having a child” to a “challenging” activity. At the end, it’s one of the things, where you either want it or not. If you want people to want it, get the older generations to make a sacrifice for us and somehow fix the current socio-economic problems that’s discouraging the women.

sho_hn 3y ago
The "challenging activity" stuff comes from the fact that my brain just can't compute the "I'd rather have all these great experiences than having kids"-type statements and not seeing any potential for great experiences in child-rearing, especially when those experiences often seem to be a lot more copy-paste. "Challenging" also maybe doesn't quite capture what I meant. Do you know how you sometimes have to bike somewhere two hours on a slow, heavy MTB that makes it a slog for a 15min downhill descent? It's more that kind of challenge.
nonethewiser 3y ago
I have never seen this sort of extreme existential pessimism in real life (not online). Altering major life decisions like having children based on fears of a negative future. Im not sure if its just more commonly expressed online or if its more common in other place (Europe maybe?) or different age groups (teens or young adults?) but if I asserted this to people locally they would think im nuts. Another possibility is this isn’t actually the difference between you wanting kids or not. Perhaps this is an oversimplified reason, but Im taking you at your word.
- OccamsMirror 3y ago
  As someone with kids I can tell that you I often wonder if it was the right thing to do. Have I brought them into a world which will deliver them misery? Are the opportunities that were available to me, and even more so my parents, gone now? The evidence is looking grim. The prognosis is not good. This world is going to shit and the billionaires in charge don’t give a single fuck.

nonethewiser 3y ago

There are lots of things people prefer doing that arent the best for them.

famahar 3y ago

Raising a child is a whole lifestyle change. It's a long term commitment and a whole shift in almost every priority in your life. Viewing child care as some challenge that only non-lazy people do is quite a stretch.

sho_hn 3y ago
You have to see it in context: I'm wondering what leads specifically people who feel that generally speaking they could afford to have children and direction change if they wanted to, to prefer one set of priorities and experiences over another. Keep in mind I'm responded to a comment that speculated on which choices lead to a "more fulfilling" life, which means it's a decision couched in a certain amount of safety and freedom. IMHO that set direction a bit and begged the question. If you make it specifically about "more fulfilling", other branches of discussion (e.g. whether having children is a good idea for them or the planet) are at least partially taken off the table already. If you decide against children for one of those reasons, you don't even need to feel addressed.
- famahar 3y ago
  You're right, framing the discussion around a "more fulfilling" life can limit other important aspects. People are highly complex. Ultimately I think the choice to raise a child comes down to an alignment with a huge set values and circumstances which are the result of countless factors.

thefz 3y ago

> See, the thing is that I cannot entirely shake the feeling that part of this stance is a certain laziness/complacency, essentially a lack of interest in any challenging activities. This mentality of "I'm a mom, what's your superpower?" really irritates me. For what you know, I could be fitter, smarter, more interesting that you and embrace challenge every day of my life. But having a child would always put you a step above, because it's oh, so challenging.