5 ms·

>and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and mo

>and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. I don't think this is quite right, and your second paragraph is kind of alluding to the underlying issue. I think it's more that there isn't a pathway for women to drop out of the workforce permanently and revert to a single-income household. A lot of women in my wife's peer group want to do this, but can't make the finances work. Of course, they end up having to pay for child care anyway and maybe it comes out in the wash. Regardless, maybe some kind of UBI can be help here for women with children who simply don't want to go back to work. Aside: you might be commenting specifically on Asian work culture, not sure, but the "give up freedom" thing I don't believe to be unique in that regard.

itake 3y ago
My sister is in that boat of not making finances work. Her job pays too well for her to leave the work force. As a man, I’m looking for an independent woman with a good income, because I don’t want to get gutted in a divorce. I’d love to be a SAHD, but it’s difficult for me to find single women with comparable income.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  > My sister is in that boat of not making finances work. Her job pays too well for her to leave the work force. But her finances arent the problem here. Its how high expenses are. Her job could pay 150k/yr or 20k/yr but the situation is the same when she quits. Its good that she at least makes enough money that it justifies working if she wants to.
  - itake 3y ago
    Yes, she could quit her job, move to Appalachia, her husband earn $20k/yr, and grow her own food. But that’s a huge lifestyle reduction. What does retirement and end-of-life healthcare look like if she and her husband make $20k/yr? I think what’s more important is income vs local population income. In SF, she probably earns 3-4x everyone in SF or 10x nationally. In a low cost of area place, her husband’s income might only be 1.5x more, leaving less money for retirement and child care.
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    I make a bit over 100k after taxes and spend 30k a year. I've saved enough to quit, but the golden handcuffs feeling is real. I'd just be giving up so much money.
orochimaaru 3y ago
My wife dropped out of the workforce for our kids in the US and then wanted to go back to work once they were more independent. It's not that we couldn't make it work financially. Anecdotally, I was against us having the second child. I wanted my wife to head back to work once my elder child was 3. There were a bunch of reasons she had dropped out but she had liked her job. She was lucky but not everyone is.
- angmarsbane 3y ago
  May I ask why you didn’t want a second kid, and why you wanted your wife to go back to work before your child was kinder age (4/5)?
  - orochimaaru 3y ago
    1. Gap between the two kids. We've generally observed that the best gap for siblings to bond is when they're within 4 yrs of each other. This isn't some great research but we just observed it in our friend circle. 2. We had excellent childcare close by, as in 5 minutes from home. I had flexible and remote work and would have been able to drop and pick my child up. I also had a provision where I could write the child care off my taxes. She finally went back to work when my little one was 8. She did go back when the little one was 3 but had to drop out again because of a health issue with the little one.
drak0n1c 3y ago
I agree. A large contingent of women want to be mothers without the stress and distraction of workplaces, but it is increasingly uneconomical to do so. So instead we resort to daycare, but with how expensive that is there is a natural cap on having more than 1-2 kids during your most fertile years. No surprise the fertility rate is less than 2. Regarding benefits - I don't know about South Korea, but where I grew up in Hawaii some of my peers or their parents purposefully had kids out of wedlock to collect the additional welfare payments that single parents were eligible for, even though they otherwise were still partnered and even living together. However, with less practical need to maintain a family over the long run, parenting quality and outcomes suffered and atomization increased. A "Great Society" era benefit intended to help those caught in tragic edge cases ended up being a perverse incentive for those in the next generation who may have avoided that situation otherwise. While doing payments for married mothers instead may have been a net-outcome better design in retrospect, there is an opposite possibility of perverse incentives for toxic families to stay intact. I don't know if marriage-agnostic UBI for parents is the best answer, though it would at least balance the currently misplaced incentives. In an ideal world it would be better to first resolve current inflated costs by making it easier and cheaper on the supply side to provide housing, healthcare, and education.

itake 3y ago

My sister is in that boat of not making finances work. Her job pays too well for her to leave the work force. As a man, I’m looking for an independent woman with a good income, because I don’t want to get gutted in a divorce. I’d love to be a SAHD, but it’s difficult for me to find single women with comparable income.

nonethewiser 3y ago
> My sister is in that boat of not making finances work. Her job pays too well for her to leave the work force. But her finances arent the problem here. Its how high expenses are. Her job could pay 150k/yr or 20k/yr but the situation is the same when she quits. Its good that she at least makes enough money that it justifies working if she wants to.
- itake 3y ago
  Yes, she could quit her job, move to Appalachia, her husband earn $20k/yr, and grow her own food. But that’s a huge lifestyle reduction. What does retirement and end-of-life healthcare look like if she and her husband make $20k/yr? I think what’s more important is income vs local population income. In SF, she probably earns 3-4x everyone in SF or 10x nationally. In a low cost of area place, her husband’s income might only be 1.5x more, leaving less money for retirement and child care.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  I make a bit over 100k after taxes and spend 30k a year. I've saved enough to quit, but the golden handcuffs feeling is real. I'd just be giving up so much money.

orochimaaru 3y ago

My wife dropped out of the workforce for our kids in the US and then wanted to go back to work once they were more independent. It's not that we couldn't make it work financially. Anecdotally, I was against us having the second child. I wanted my wife to head back to work once my elder child was 3. There were a bunch of reasons she had dropped out but she had liked her job. She was lucky but not everyone is.

angmarsbane 3y ago
May I ask why you didn’t want a second kid, and why you wanted your wife to go back to work before your child was kinder age (4/5)?
- orochimaaru 3y ago
  1. Gap between the two kids. We've generally observed that the best gap for siblings to bond is when they're within 4 yrs of each other. This isn't some great research but we just observed it in our friend circle. 2. We had excellent childcare close by, as in 5 minutes from home. I had flexible and remote work and would have been able to drop and pick my child up. I also had a provision where I could write the child care off my taxes. She finally went back to work when my little one was 8. She did go back when the little one was 3 but had to drop out again because of a health issue with the little one.

drak0n1c 3y ago

I agree. A large contingent of women want to be mothers without the stress and distraction of workplaces, but it is increasingly uneconomical to do so. So instead we resort to daycare, but with how expensive that is there is a natural cap on having more than 1-2 kids during your most fertile years. No surprise the fertility rate is less than 2. Regarding benefits - I don't know about South Korea, but where I grew up in Hawaii some of my peers or their parents purposefully had kids out of wedlock to collect the additional welfare payments that single parents were eligible for, even though they otherwise were still partnered and even living together. However, with less practical need to maintain a family over the long run, parenting quality and outcomes suffered and atomization increased. A "Great Society" era benefit intended to help those caught in tragic edge cases ended up being a perverse incentive for those in the next generation who may have avoided that situation otherwise. While doing payments for married mothers instead may have been a net-outcome better design in retrospect, there is an opposite possibility of perverse incentives for toxic families to stay intact. I don't know if marriage-agnostic UBI for parents is the best answer, though it would at least balance the currently misplaced incentives. In an ideal world it would be better to first resolve current inflated costs by making it easier and cheaper on the supply side to provide housing, healthcare, and education.