5 ms·

This caste problems continue in the US, instead of leaving behind such ridiculous biases it becomes a part of an US company… https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-a

by 911e 3y ago

This caste problems continue in the US, instead of leaving behind such ridiculous biases it becomes a part of an US company… https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/googles-caste-bias-problem https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/googles-caste-bias-pr...

banshiram123 3y ago
[flagged]
- timmytokyo 3y ago
  California is about to pass a caste discrimination ban [1]. [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/us/california-moves-closer-historic-caste-discrimination-ban-2023-08-29/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/california-moves-closer-his...
AlbertCory 3y ago
Since this is about Google, where I worked: > The Google spokesperson said that caste discrimination has “no place in our workplace and it’s prohibited in our policies.” I can testify that Ads was very heavily Indian, much more than the general employee percentages would predict. I don't know if it still is. Sridhar Ramaswamy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sridhar_Ramaswamy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sridhar_Ramaswamy) probably had something to do with that. From informal observation, IIT was a very common alma mater for them. Yet, within the SmartASS team in Ads, a huge percentage of the engineers were Canadian. I worked in the office right next door to them for a while. What does this tell you? People tend to refer their friends and give good recommendations to people they know. A Canadian is more likely to know other Canadians. So is that "discrimination?"
- za3faran 3y ago
  I wonder how that sits with the diversity and inclusion directives that are everywhere now. Maybe they turn a blind eye when it suits them, or use other teams to offset the difference.
  - AlbertCory 3y ago
    idk, but there's always a question of how big a unit you look at when computing ethnic percentages. Does a group of 10 have to have 5 women, 3 POC's, and one LGBT? Or can you measure DEI only for very large groups, like the whole company? Probably for the government, it's the entire company, or maybe each large strata of it.
    - kelnos 3y ago
      For a team of 10 I absolutely agree that you're probably not going to get that fine-grained, and you'll probably look at larger groups of 100 or more. But it still can be useful to spot-check smaller teams. If that team of 10 is, say, 100% male, or 100% Chinese, maybe that's something that deserves a second look. Not with guns-blazing, "you all are obviously sexist/racist", but... a second look, nonetheless.
      - tekla 3y ago
        What if it was 100% women, or 100% Black?
        cududa 3y ago
        What if they were 100% Gelgameks? It's a nonsense question because at any large tech co, there aren't any engineering teams that are 100% women or Black. I don't believe that's a reflection the skills of race or gender lacking, just that there aren't any tech co execs that would feel comfortable with that due to their own bias and overall corporate culture..
        AlbertCory 3y ago
        > What if they were 100% Gelgameks? that's the nonsense question. This isn't 100%, but there were Google managers who prided themselves on having very disproportionately large numbers of black or female employees. SRE groups, especially. In addition, there are plenty of teams that are almost all Chinese. Or Indian. Or, of course, white male.
- ae_throw 3y ago
  [flagged]
- camgunz 3y ago
  It's at least a lack of diversity processes, metrics, and benchmarks, which leads to discriminatory outcomes. Or in other words, someone should've said, "hey, this team is X% Indian, maybe branch out a little". It's the exact same dynamic that leads to heavily white/male teams, "hey I made all my friends at institutions that didn't at all strive for diversity... and that's where I hire from... hmm."
- lozenge 3y ago
  How is your argument relevant when there were 20 complaints from actual Googlers about caste discrimination? Unless you are actually Indian and aware of the castes you wouldn't have any idea whether caste discrimination was happening to your colleagues.
  - AlbertCory 3y ago
    Did I say there was?
- kelnos 3y ago
  > So is that "discrimination?" Yes, absolutely. It may be passive and unconscious, but it's still discrimination. I bet a lot of more-than-qualified candidates -- many likely even more qualified than the people who ended up getting hired -- were rejected. Unless you're going to assert that Indian people are uniquely the most qualified and best at building advertising systems (which I hope we can agree would be an absurd assertion to make), it's a near certainty that better candidates were passed over. And looking at it from the potential candidate perspective, I personally wouldn't want to work on a team that is heavily over-represented by any one race (even my own), and I wouldn't be surprised if that "scared away" some great candidates (of other races) for positions as well. This is no different than the archetypal example of a woman engineer being uncomfortable joining a team full of men. > People tend to refer their friends and give good recommendations to people they know. I've come to believe that referrals are great when you're a tiny startup trying to find people whose work you can trust (since dead weight can be fatal to a new company), but become less and less useful -- and sometimes even counterproductive -- as a company grows in size. At any rate, at any non-tiny company, any referral should be put through the same interview process as the other candidates, and should be judged based on the interview, not on the referrer's opinion. The referrer should not even be a part of the interview process, anyway. Not just when it comes to their referral, but (if possible), they shouldn't be a part of the other candidates' interview panels either, as they may be (at best) unconsciously biased against the others. > A Canadian is more likely to know other Canadians. Canadians aren't a racial group (and a Canadian may be white, black, native, Asian, Indian, whatever), so I don't think this particular example has anything to do with the rest of what you're talking about. If that team mostly or exclusively comprised white Canadians (or Canadians of any other single race), then yeah, maybe there's an issue there. And regardless, a team comprised of the same $X -- where $X is pretty much anything -- should be a red flag. To me, that's a sign that the team may be cliquish and discriminate (even unconsciously) against anyone who might join the team but be an "outsider" from the perspective of $X.
  - AlbertCory 3y ago
    > Canadians aren't a racial group (and a Canadian may be white, black, native, Asian, Indian, whatever), so I don't think this particular example has anything to do with the rest of what you're talking about. They're not, but it has absolutely everything to do with it. As you agreed (I think): People tend to refer their friends. Canadians often went to the same schools (Waterloo, McGill, UBC) and if you asked one about another one, quite possibly they'd know someone who knew him or her.
- LordShredda 3y ago
  It is discrimination depending on why they were recommended. That's the hard part of stopping discrimination, it's never found until it's obvious
  - AlbertCory 3y ago
    > depending on why they were recommended so if the "why" is "I worked with this person" that's bad? Or not?
usr8new 3y ago
> Caste problems continue in the US The thread is filled with white progressives who know nothing about caste. There are what 2 cases of caste discrimination in US companies. In one of the cases (the famous Cisco) case was proven there was no discrimination. The professor who wrote this blog is literally a Jatt. A land owning caste & one of the most powerful castes in India. Any Indian reading this blog will know this is BS. I would understand if the author was at least Dalit or ST.
- dang 3y ago
  It sounds like you know something about this topic, but the way you've been posting about it is too inflammatory and flamebaity. Putting other people down for being ignorant isn't helpful; neither is calling names. If you know more than others, that's great, but then the thing to do is to share some of what you know so the rest of us can learn. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
LambdaComplex 3y ago
Cisco has also had problems with caste discrimination in the recent past.
- tacker2000 3y ago
  I interned there one summer about 10 yrs ago and i already noticed back then that some departments were composed either entirely of indians or chinese employees.
- usr8new 3y ago
  The Cisco case was dismissed as false recently. The person was found not guilty of any caste based discrimination. Caste issue in America is mostly made up. Indians who have money to go from India to US don't care about castes in the first place
- rhuru 3y ago
  Cisco did not have any problems, it was Equality Labs which brainwashed an employee to file a lawsuite against his manager (who happened to be Christian). Not only the lawsuite has been dropped the last time I checked the victim (the manager accused of discrimination) is countersueing. Equality Labs is behind these sort of plans and propaganda.
rhuru 3y ago
Since I worked at Google I can clarify. There are far too many caste grifters in USA pushing an "agenda". Equality Labs for example is an Islamic Organization with a Christian Thenmouzi as its face who talks about "caste" but in reality is she is born to very rich doctor parents in central California. Most of these claims and propaganda is not just bogus but outright harmful for the very people they pretend to fight for.
- selimthegrim 3y ago
  How is it Islamic?
  - rhuru 3y ago
    Equality Labs was initially setup by a Bangladeshi Muslim to fight "Islamophobia" and to target Hindus in general. Thenmozi joined it much later and became "co-founder". They shared stage with known wanted Khalistani terrorists and such. The "Islamists" tag made it harder for this organization to get any traction with politicians and corporate world. Everyone would look at them suspiciously so they quietly dropped all the muslim names from their site and removed most references to Islamophobia.
    - rramadass 3y ago
      This video provides some evidence - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-1G__iOqmQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-1G__iOqmQ

by 911e 3y ago

banshiram123 3y ago

[flagged]

timmytokyo 3y ago
California is about to pass a caste discrimination ban [1]. [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/us/california-moves-closer-historic-caste-discrimination-ban-2023-08-29/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/california-moves-closer-his...

AlbertCory 3y ago

Since this is about Google, where I worked: > The Google spokesperson said that caste discrimination has “no place in our workplace and it’s prohibited in our policies.” I can testify that Ads was very heavily Indian, much more than the general employee percentages would predict. I don't know if it still is. Sridhar Ramaswamy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sridhar_Ramaswamy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sridhar_Ramaswamy) probably had something to do with that. From informal observation, IIT was a very common alma mater for them. Yet, within the SmartASS team in Ads, a huge percentage of the engineers were Canadian. I worked in the office right next door to them for a while. What does this tell you? People tend to refer their friends and give good recommendations to people they know. A Canadian is more likely to know other Canadians. So is that "discrimination?"

za3faran 3y ago
I wonder how that sits with the diversity and inclusion directives that are everywhere now. Maybe they turn a blind eye when it suits them, or use other teams to offset the difference.
- AlbertCory 3y ago
  idk, but there's always a question of how big a unit you look at when computing ethnic percentages. Does a group of 10 have to have 5 women, 3 POC's, and one LGBT? Or can you measure DEI only for very large groups, like the whole company? Probably for the government, it's the entire company, or maybe each large strata of it.
  - kelnos 3y ago
    For a team of 10 I absolutely agree that you're probably not going to get that fine-grained, and you'll probably look at larger groups of 100 or more. But it still can be useful to spot-check smaller teams. If that team of 10 is, say, 100% male, or 100% Chinese, maybe that's something that deserves a second look. Not with guns-blazing, "you all are obviously sexist/racist", but... a second look, nonetheless.
    - tekla 3y ago
      What if it was 100% women, or 100% Black?
      - cududa 3y ago
        What if they were 100% Gelgameks? It's a nonsense question because at any large tech co, there aren't any engineering teams that are 100% women or Black. I don't believe that's a reflection the skills of race or gender lacking, just that there aren't any tech co execs that would feel comfortable with that due to their own bias and overall corporate culture..
        AlbertCory 3y ago
        > What if they were 100% Gelgameks? that's the nonsense question. This isn't 100%, but there were Google managers who prided themselves on having very disproportionately large numbers of black or female employees. SRE groups, especially. In addition, there are plenty of teams that are almost all Chinese. Or Indian. Or, of course, white male.
ae_throw 3y ago
[flagged]
camgunz 3y ago
It's at least a lack of diversity processes, metrics, and benchmarks, which leads to discriminatory outcomes. Or in other words, someone should've said, "hey, this team is X% Indian, maybe branch out a little". It's the exact same dynamic that leads to heavily white/male teams, "hey I made all my friends at institutions that didn't at all strive for diversity... and that's where I hire from... hmm."
lozenge 3y ago
How is your argument relevant when there were 20 complaints from actual Googlers about caste discrimination? Unless you are actually Indian and aware of the castes you wouldn't have any idea whether caste discrimination was happening to your colleagues.
- AlbertCory 3y ago
  Did I say there was?
kelnos 3y ago
> So is that "discrimination?" Yes, absolutely. It may be passive and unconscious, but it's still discrimination. I bet a lot of more-than-qualified candidates -- many likely even more qualified than the people who ended up getting hired -- were rejected. Unless you're going to assert that Indian people are uniquely the most qualified and best at building advertising systems (which I hope we can agree would be an absurd assertion to make), it's a near certainty that better candidates were passed over. And looking at it from the potential candidate perspective, I personally wouldn't want to work on a team that is heavily over-represented by any one race (even my own), and I wouldn't be surprised if that "scared away" some great candidates (of other races) for positions as well. This is no different than the archetypal example of a woman engineer being uncomfortable joining a team full of men. > People tend to refer their friends and give good recommendations to people they know. I've come to believe that referrals are great when you're a tiny startup trying to find people whose work you can trust (since dead weight can be fatal to a new company), but become less and less useful -- and sometimes even counterproductive -- as a company grows in size. At any rate, at any non-tiny company, any referral should be put through the same interview process as the other candidates, and should be judged based on the interview, not on the referrer's opinion. The referrer should not even be a part of the interview process, anyway. Not just when it comes to their referral, but (if possible), they shouldn't be a part of the other candidates' interview panels either, as they may be (at best) unconsciously biased against the others. > A Canadian is more likely to know other Canadians. Canadians aren't a racial group (and a Canadian may be white, black, native, Asian, Indian, whatever), so I don't think this particular example has anything to do with the rest of what you're talking about. If that team mostly or exclusively comprised white Canadians (or Canadians of any other single race), then yeah, maybe there's an issue there. And regardless, a team comprised of the same $X -- where $X is pretty much anything -- should be a red flag. To me, that's a sign that the team may be cliquish and discriminate (even unconsciously) against anyone who might join the team but be an "outsider" from the perspective of $X.
- AlbertCory 3y ago
  > Canadians aren't a racial group (and a Canadian may be white, black, native, Asian, Indian, whatever), so I don't think this particular example has anything to do with the rest of what you're talking about. They're not, but it has absolutely everything to do with it. As you agreed (I think): People tend to refer their friends. Canadians often went to the same schools (Waterloo, McGill, UBC) and if you asked one about another one, quite possibly they'd know someone who knew him or her.
LordShredda 3y ago
It is discrimination depending on why they were recommended. That's the hard part of stopping discrimination, it's never found until it's obvious
- AlbertCory 3y ago
  > depending on why they were recommended so if the "why" is "I worked with this person" that's bad? Or not?

usr8new 3y ago

> Caste problems continue in the US The thread is filled with white progressives who know nothing about caste. There are what 2 cases of caste discrimination in US companies. In one of the cases (the famous Cisco) case was proven there was no discrimination. The professor who wrote this blog is literally a Jatt. A land owning caste & one of the most powerful castes in India. Any Indian reading this blog will know this is BS. I would understand if the author was at least Dalit or ST.

dang 3y ago
It sounds like you know something about this topic, but the way you've been posting about it is too inflammatory and flamebaity. Putting other people down for being ignorant isn't helpful; neither is calling names. If you know more than others, that's great, but then the thing to do is to share some of what you know so the rest of us can learn. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

LambdaComplex 3y ago

Cisco has also had problems with caste discrimination in the recent past.

tacker2000 3y ago
I interned there one summer about 10 yrs ago and i already noticed back then that some departments were composed either entirely of indians or chinese employees.
usr8new 3y ago
The Cisco case was dismissed as false recently. The person was found not guilty of any caste based discrimination. Caste issue in America is mostly made up. Indians who have money to go from India to US don't care about castes in the first place
rhuru 3y ago
Cisco did not have any problems, it was Equality Labs which brainwashed an employee to file a lawsuite against his manager (who happened to be Christian). Not only the lawsuite has been dropped the last time I checked the victim (the manager accused of discrimination) is countersueing. Equality Labs is behind these sort of plans and propaganda.

rhuru 3y ago

Since I worked at Google I can clarify. There are far too many caste grifters in USA pushing an "agenda". Equality Labs for example is an Islamic Organization with a Christian Thenmouzi as its face who talks about "caste" but in reality is she is born to very rich doctor parents in central California. Most of these claims and propaganda is not just bogus but outright harmful for the very people they pretend to fight for.

selimthegrim 3y ago
How is it Islamic?
- rhuru 3y ago
  Equality Labs was initially setup by a Bangladeshi Muslim to fight "Islamophobia" and to target Hindus in general. Thenmozi joined it much later and became "co-founder". They shared stage with known wanted Khalistani terrorists and such. The "Islamists" tag made it harder for this organization to get any traction with politicians and corporate world. Everyone would look at them suspiciously so they quietly dropped all the muslim names from their site and removed most references to Islamophobia.
  - rramadass 3y ago
    This video provides some evidence - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-1G__iOqmQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-1G__iOqmQ