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Why not Linux (depending on your line of work). Wider hardware choice, easier to upgrade, and no corporate oversight. Doesn't cover all use cases but it's a goo

Why not Linux (depending on your line of work). Wider hardware choice, easier to upgrade, and no corporate oversight. Doesn't cover all use cases but it's a good option these days.

trustingtrust 3y ago
With computers like framework and system76, the community for hardware support is solid too now. Seriously considering a switch from M1. I feel like macOS is half baked development environment. I only stay because I never bought a Linux supported computer and I got the M1 air very cheap. But I am considering getting a framework as I just damaged a usb-c port and I am not entering apple’s repairability problem.
- backendanon 3y ago
  I've had excellent support from Linux across a variety of machines for 2 decades. Dell, Lenovo and HP.
- _fat_santa 3y ago
  While Framework and Sys76 are the two major players in the Linux laptop space, if you are looking to save money I would recommend picking up a Dell/Lenovo/HP "business" laptop, those run Linux really well and a good chunk are even certified to run Ubuntu. In my experience though I stopped buying laptops for personal use and started buying desktops. Easier to upgrade, usually cheaper and better support for Linux just by virtue of not having things like a Wifi or BT card.
  - pxc 3y ago
    Why is Framework considered a player in that space? What does that company actively do to improve Linux support? Do they offer free BIOSes like coreboot? Are any of their peripheral firmwares open-source? What kind of Linux compatibility do they guarantee for their hardware prior to launch? Afaik they're exactly the same as Lenovo: a Windows PC manufacturer that happens to be popular with Linux users, and which doesn't go out of their way to break things for Linux users. But they've shipped laptops that had broken power management on Linux on launch day, for example. They're not a Linux hardware vendor.
    - hot_gril 3y ago
      Lenovo Thinkpads have explicit Linux support, but they still tend to have issues with Bluetooth audio at the very least.
      - pxc 3y ago
        That's a welcome development. In the past, every time I've been in the market for a laptop, they had few or no explicitly supported models. (The Bluetooth thing sucks though.)
- squarefoot 3y ago
  The Starfighter also seems quite interesting: https://starlabs.systems/pages/starfighter https://starlabs.systems/pages/starfighter (Although I love the Framework concept) As for Linux support for your M1, did you check out Asahi Linux? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zHoZK4FoIo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zHoZK4FoIo Its development is progressing rapidly, so be sure to check out the latest development status at their site: https://asahilinux.org/ https://asahilinux.org/
  - senectus1 3y ago
    Have a work mate that has just bought a 2nd hand apple lappy with the M2 and has Asahi installed on it. it is blazingly fast. No kidding around... everything just snaps on when clicked. If this is the future I may have to start buying apple hardware
gorjusborg 3y ago
Not the person you responded to, but I'm in the same boat; I went from grudgingly using it due to being the 'best' in practice, to seeing it as something I need to move away from. I've used the 'big three' (windows/macos/linux) desktop OSs at work and home in recent years. Here's my ranking: 1) Linux 2) MacOS 3) Windows Where I have control to use what I want, linux is my choice. At work though, I need to jump through endpoint management and security theater nonsense, so I am stuck choosing between MacOS and Windows.
mythz 3y ago
I do all my deployment to Linux Servers, but I want my main Desktop to just work and plan on sticking to the primary OS the hardware was built for. Don't need broad hardware support, it just needs to support M3 hardware when it comes out. I'm also running macOS software like Pixelmator Pro and Affinity software suite. I'm already running multiple Docker Linux containers, headless Ubuntu on lima and GUI Ubuntu and Fedora VMs in UTM, so don't feel like I'm missing out on the Desktop Linux experience. I could definitely do most of my development on Linux given .NET SDK and JetBrains products supports it, but I'll be waiting a few years at least for Asahi Linux to get feature parity before running it natively.
jwells89 3y ago
The frustrating thing about shopping for x86 laptops (as you probably will be if you’re wanting to run Linux) is how few models come even a little close to comparing to MacBooks in terms of battery life even with tools like tlp running and CPU throttled down as far as it’ll go, and that’s to say nothing about heat and fan noise. I’ve been looking around and the only two 12-14” options I can find that match that description are the HP Dragonfly G4 and ASUS Zenbook S OLED (AMD), and those still fall several hours short of the M2 Air, and the M3 Air will likely widen that gap with its SoC being on a smaller process node.
- gumballindie 3y ago
  Battery is indeed best on macbooks. > ASUS Zenbook S OLED (AMD) I went for the asus proart studio book. high screen resolution, high refresh rate, the oled display is gorgeous (although the touch screen overlay is slightly visible, not an issue once used to it) and it feels more robust than a macbook. also trivially upgrade-able short of cpu and gpu. had to patch my acpi tables for sound support, and no asus dial compat yet. every now and then i get my hands dirty and i might be able to hack something to get it working. thus got a new hobby as well :-)
mort96 3y ago
The problem with PC hardware is that yes, there's more choice, but it's all mostly bad. Nobody other than Apple manages to put a decent and reliable trackpad on their machines for example, and all PC laptops I've used have at times gotten really loud. If you're okay with non-Windows OSes, hardware choice is the main reason to pick Apple machines. Also, Linux is coming along rather well on Apple Silicon machines.
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  FWIW, I find current gen (starting with 8th) HP EliteBooks decent enough. They work perfectly in Linux (actually better than Windows, since for a while some bits weren't recognized...). They're quiet unless I'm compiling something (if I don't use Windows, which for some reasons gets the fan spinning even when it's supposed to be asleep). The trackpad is good, even though it's worse than my 2013 MBP's. The main issue I have with them is the absurdly bad displays. Even the top-of-the-line display is ridiculously bad.
  - jader201 3y ago
    > Even the top-of-the-line display is ridiculously bad. To me, that’s far from “decent enough”, not even taking into account the other (more minor) differences you name.
    - vladvasiliu 3y ago
      The reason I mention it is because some people don't really care about display quality. I know basically none of my colleagues do. They'll see a MBP and go "yeah, it looks better. so?". But they do care if half the things don't work (think borked wifi or no webcam). So, for people like this, I find it's a good data point. And even though I do care about display quality, given my usage pattern, this isn't much of an issue in practice, since 99% of this PC's usage is tethered to a high-quality external screen. If I had a gorgeous MBP, I'd still be looking at the same monitor. The battery doesn't last as long as an M mac, either. But then again, I rarely use it away from a desk. I could technically use one of those mini pcs that I'd cart around, but for the 1% of the time when I do use while out and about, it's a good compromise.
hot_gril 3y ago
Linux is ok nowadays, but why? The Mac hardware is already better, and Apple isn't too annoying. You'll have more random nonsense to deal with on Linux, some of it not their fault.
- consoomer 3y ago
  Mac is more annoying than it seems. I went full Linux around three years ago. The annoyance for me peaked with Mac phoning home file data every time I tried to open a file and apps breaking upon major updates. My main issue was with the hardware though. I would spend $3,400-$4500 on a nice machine only to have the keyboard break and be told they would replace the entire motherboard, etc. Then to have a screen break due to a poor cable connection and be told I would have to replace everything again. I said fuck it and bought a decent machine with open hardware and a good-enough screen. It's no mac display, but damn... I haven't had to fight with hardware or software in about three years. The kicker? My machine only cost me $1,100 and battery isn't half bad. I get 9 hours with it.. which I never believed was possible with Linux before.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > Apple isn't too annoying I find Apple to be too annoying for my tastes. Less annoying than Microsoft, but that doesn't mean much.
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    It's that vs the annoyance of using Linux. Which is worse? I've been there, diagnosing bluetooth and wifi issues, dealing with free vs non-free drivers, finding out Netflix won't run in 1080p/4K, going down the Flash rabbit hole back then, dealing with sleep issues, having sound not work, jumping ship to whatever DE is best supported, messing with WINE for the plethora of non-Linux-supported apps, it never ends. A "how to do X in Linux" article exists for so many things that you'd never search for on Mac (or even Windows), but Linux users tend to make it sound like everything works out of the box.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
mrguyorama 3y ago
>Wider hardware choice You're joking right? Sure, something built in 2002 will probably still work well in Linux, but that's often the case for Windows, and on a Windows system, the hardware AND the proprietary software it came with will probably still work. Meanwhile, in Linux land, if you don't buy very very very specific hardware you can never hope to have functional sleep.
- tremon 3y ago
  You're joking right? Not as much as you. Windows 11 won't (officially) install on any system lacking a TPM v2.0. The only reason that Windows 11 can be installed without hassle on modern hardware is because every motherboard manufacturer started scrambling to outfit their systems with such a TPM by default. Also, for Windows Vista they completely rewrote their driver model for many devices, which means that no printer/scanner/sound card/graphics card from the year you mention has functioning drivers for any current Windows version. So no, something built in 2002 will most definitely not run current Windows. Even most systems built in 2018 will not run Windows 11.

Why not Linux (depending on your line of work). Wider hardware choice, easier to upgrade, and no corporate oversight. Doesn't cover all use cases but it's a good option these days.

trustingtrust 3y ago

With computers like framework and system76, the community for hardware support is solid too now. Seriously considering a switch from M1. I feel like macOS is half baked development environment. I only stay because I never bought a Linux supported computer and I got the M1 air very cheap. But I am considering getting a framework as I just damaged a usb-c port and I am not entering apple’s repairability problem.

backendanon 3y ago
I've had excellent support from Linux across a variety of machines for 2 decades. Dell, Lenovo and HP.
_fat_santa 3y ago
While Framework and Sys76 are the two major players in the Linux laptop space, if you are looking to save money I would recommend picking up a Dell/Lenovo/HP "business" laptop, those run Linux really well and a good chunk are even certified to run Ubuntu. In my experience though I stopped buying laptops for personal use and started buying desktops. Easier to upgrade, usually cheaper and better support for Linux just by virtue of not having things like a Wifi or BT card.
- pxc 3y ago
  Why is Framework considered a player in that space? What does that company actively do to improve Linux support? Do they offer free BIOSes like coreboot? Are any of their peripheral firmwares open-source? What kind of Linux compatibility do they guarantee for their hardware prior to launch? Afaik they're exactly the same as Lenovo: a Windows PC manufacturer that happens to be popular with Linux users, and which doesn't go out of their way to break things for Linux users. But they've shipped laptops that had broken power management on Linux on launch day, for example. They're not a Linux hardware vendor.
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    Lenovo Thinkpads have explicit Linux support, but they still tend to have issues with Bluetooth audio at the very least.
    - pxc 3y ago
      That's a welcome development. In the past, every time I've been in the market for a laptop, they had few or no explicitly supported models. (The Bluetooth thing sucks though.)
squarefoot 3y ago
The Starfighter also seems quite interesting: https://starlabs.systems/pages/starfighter https://starlabs.systems/pages/starfighter (Although I love the Framework concept) As for Linux support for your M1, did you check out Asahi Linux? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zHoZK4FoIo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zHoZK4FoIo Its development is progressing rapidly, so be sure to check out the latest development status at their site: https://asahilinux.org/ https://asahilinux.org/
- senectus1 3y ago
  Have a work mate that has just bought a 2nd hand apple lappy with the M2 and has Asahi installed on it. it is blazingly fast. No kidding around... everything just snaps on when clicked. If this is the future I may have to start buying apple hardware

gorjusborg 3y ago

Not the person you responded to, but I'm in the same boat; I went from grudgingly using it due to being the 'best' in practice, to seeing it as something I need to move away from. I've used the 'big three' (windows/macos/linux) desktop OSs at work and home in recent years. Here's my ranking: 1) Linux 2) MacOS 3) Windows Where I have control to use what I want, linux is my choice. At work though, I need to jump through endpoint management and security theater nonsense, so I am stuck choosing between MacOS and Windows.

mythz 3y ago

I do all my deployment to Linux Servers, but I want my main Desktop to just work and plan on sticking to the primary OS the hardware was built for. Don't need broad hardware support, it just needs to support M3 hardware when it comes out. I'm also running macOS software like Pixelmator Pro and Affinity software suite. I'm already running multiple Docker Linux containers, headless Ubuntu on lima and GUI Ubuntu and Fedora VMs in UTM, so don't feel like I'm missing out on the Desktop Linux experience. I could definitely do most of my development on Linux given .NET SDK and JetBrains products supports it, but I'll be waiting a few years at least for Asahi Linux to get feature parity before running it natively.

jwells89 3y ago

The frustrating thing about shopping for x86 laptops (as you probably will be if you’re wanting to run Linux) is how few models come even a little close to comparing to MacBooks in terms of battery life even with tools like tlp running and CPU throttled down as far as it’ll go, and that’s to say nothing about heat and fan noise. I’ve been looking around and the only two 12-14” options I can find that match that description are the HP Dragonfly G4 and ASUS Zenbook S OLED (AMD), and those still fall several hours short of the M2 Air, and the M3 Air will likely widen that gap with its SoC being on a smaller process node.

gumballindie 3y ago
Battery is indeed best on macbooks. > ASUS Zenbook S OLED (AMD) I went for the asus proart studio book. high screen resolution, high refresh rate, the oled display is gorgeous (although the touch screen overlay is slightly visible, not an issue once used to it) and it feels more robust than a macbook. also trivially upgrade-able short of cpu and gpu. had to patch my acpi tables for sound support, and no asus dial compat yet. every now and then i get my hands dirty and i might be able to hack something to get it working. thus got a new hobby as well :-)

mort96 3y ago

The problem with PC hardware is that yes, there's more choice, but it's all mostly bad. Nobody other than Apple manages to put a decent and reliable trackpad on their machines for example, and all PC laptops I've used have at times gotten really loud. If you're okay with non-Windows OSes, hardware choice is the main reason to pick Apple machines. Also, Linux is coming along rather well on Apple Silicon machines.

vladvasiliu 3y ago
FWIW, I find current gen (starting with 8th) HP EliteBooks decent enough. They work perfectly in Linux (actually better than Windows, since for a while some bits weren't recognized...). They're quiet unless I'm compiling something (if I don't use Windows, which for some reasons gets the fan spinning even when it's supposed to be asleep). The trackpad is good, even though it's worse than my 2013 MBP's. The main issue I have with them is the absurdly bad displays. Even the top-of-the-line display is ridiculously bad.
- jader201 3y ago
  > Even the top-of-the-line display is ridiculously bad. To me, that’s far from “decent enough”, not even taking into account the other (more minor) differences you name.
  - vladvasiliu 3y ago
    The reason I mention it is because some people don't really care about display quality. I know basically none of my colleagues do. They'll see a MBP and go "yeah, it looks better. so?". But they do care if half the things don't work (think borked wifi or no webcam). So, for people like this, I find it's a good data point. And even though I do care about display quality, given my usage pattern, this isn't much of an issue in practice, since 99% of this PC's usage is tethered to a high-quality external screen. If I had a gorgeous MBP, I'd still be looking at the same monitor. The battery doesn't last as long as an M mac, either. But then again, I rarely use it away from a desk. I could technically use one of those mini pcs that I'd cart around, but for the 1% of the time when I do use while out and about, it's a good compromise.

hot_gril 3y ago

Linux is ok nowadays, but why? The Mac hardware is already better, and Apple isn't too annoying. You'll have more random nonsense to deal with on Linux, some of it not their fault.

consoomer 3y ago
Mac is more annoying than it seems. I went full Linux around three years ago. The annoyance for me peaked with Mac phoning home file data every time I tried to open a file and apps breaking upon major updates. My main issue was with the hardware though. I would spend $3,400-$4500 on a nice machine only to have the keyboard break and be told they would replace the entire motherboard, etc. Then to have a screen break due to a poor cable connection and be told I would have to replace everything again. I said fuck it and bought a decent machine with open hardware and a good-enough screen. It's no mac display, but damn... I haven't had to fight with hardware or software in about three years. The kicker? My machine only cost me $1,100 and battery isn't half bad. I get 9 hours with it.. which I never believed was possible with Linux before.
JohnFen 3y ago
> Apple isn't too annoying I find Apple to be too annoying for my tastes. Less annoying than Microsoft, but that doesn't mean much.
- hot_gril 3y ago
  It's that vs the annoyance of using Linux. Which is worse? I've been there, diagnosing bluetooth and wifi issues, dealing with free vs non-free drivers, finding out Netflix won't run in 1080p/4K, going down the Flash rabbit hole back then, dealing with sleep issues, having sound not work, jumping ship to whatever DE is best supported, messing with WINE for the plethora of non-Linux-supported apps, it never ends. A "how to do X in Linux" article exists for so many things that you'd never search for on Mac (or even Windows), but Linux users tend to make it sound like everything works out of the box.
  - JohnFen 3y ago

mrguyorama 3y ago

>Wider hardware choice You're joking right? Sure, something built in 2002 will probably still work well in Linux, but that's often the case for Windows, and on a Windows system, the hardware AND the proprietary software it came with will probably still work. Meanwhile, in Linux land, if you don't buy very very very specific hardware you can never hope to have functional sleep.

tremon 3y ago
You're joking right? Not as much as you. Windows 11 won't (officially) install on any system lacking a TPM v2.0. The only reason that Windows 11 can be installed without hassle on modern hardware is because every motherboard manufacturer started scrambling to outfit their systems with such a TPM by default. Also, for Windows Vista they completely rewrote their driver model for many devices, which means that no printer/scanner/sound card/graphics card from the year you mention has functioning drivers for any current Windows version. So no, something built in 2002 will most definitely not run current Windows. Even most systems built in 2018 will not run Windows 11.