5 ms·

I'm loving M$ having to admit they're intentionally abusing their users by disrespecting their preferences even when it would cost them nothing to do so.

omeid2 3y ago
On the windows front, it actually costs them more to make the feature geographic dependent. But on the browser dominance, the choice would actually cost M$.
desi_ninja 3y ago
When will Apple admit?
- tmpX7dMeXU 3y ago
  Apple doesn’t disrespect set user preferences in the same way that Microsoft does. This sort of oversimplified drive-by whataboutism isn’t great for conversation.
  - jemmyw 3y ago
    They respect it on Mac and don't let you have a non WebKit browser on iOS
    - dijit 3y ago
      The hard and fast rule is: you're not permitted to have a source code interpreter. That's the "rules of engagement", same way you can't run Flash or Linux binaries; the same way you can't touch windows kernel space without a code-signing certificate from a eye-gouging authority. Exceptions to apples rule are rarely given, even for educational purposes; such as pythonista. When taken though that lens; if we hadn't turned everything into a fucking web-app: alternative interpreters of HTML/CSS could exist. Unrelated, but: Ironically the original vision for the iPhone was web-apps not native ones (as there was only an app store created after community backlash over Apple pushing people to the web).
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        > if we hadn't turned everything into a fucking web-app It's rich to hear this used as a defense of any corporation. Everything is a web app now because nobody got their act together to ship a true "write once, ship anywhere" platform. Microsoft smugly profited off this in the short term with Windows, and Apple used it as an excuse to double-down on their proprietary SDKs. It's obvious why everything is a webapp; what's the realistic alternative? Developing native apps for every platform on one device isn't even feasible nowadays. Then you'd need the developer subscriptions, a cross-platform app architecture and the willingness to write n number of UI mockups, where n is the number of target platforms you intend to hit. It's a veritable waste of time to do anything else.
        dijit 3y ago
        Situation is not better on the desktop, it's just ironically not as annoying because of the insane dominance of Windows.
        smoldesu 3y ago
        It's not better anywhere. That's the problem, everything is a game of compromise and when you try to fix things for yourself a big company gives you the stink-eye. The web is the last place left where developers feel they have freedom, which should make us all feel very sad considering they run a whole-ass computer that they effectively ignore because of arbitrary restrictions.
        dijit 3y ago
        > The web is the last place left where developers feel they have freedom Come on, we have excellent open computing platforms; it's just not where the money is right now. Nobody can see passed their nose for profits though so we end up with lowest common denominator everything: which forces you to run a whole code interpreter on everything. Apple said "no, you can't" and that's where the money is, so you had (and continue to have) a choice and your business chooses to use it. So, you have to play by those rules. I mean, I'm not taking a stand here; despite people believing that I'm defending apple. You don't get the sit around though and reap the benefits of the system they built (and developers helped build) while simultaneously trying to tear it down. They set the rules, you all agreed to play by them; so why are we complaining? If you actually care you would make programs on one of the many open standards platforms which in turn would turn them into more attractive platforms as the ecosystem improved. But nobody does, everyone just wants the money now.
    - tengbretson 3y ago
      When I highlight text in `Terminal.app`, right-click, and then click "Search with Google" it opens Safari in spite of my preferences.
  - slimsag 3y ago
    You can’t install non-WebKit browsers on iOS or iPadOS.
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
      That's not disrespecting a set user preference though, it's limiting what a user can do on their platform. Different even if just as or more shitty.
    - toxik 3y ago
      WebKit is probably the only thing holding the web open at this point. Imagine if this last bastion of non-Chromium went away, and Googles stranglehold on the web was finally total.
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        The web isn't made open by forcing people to run specific client software. It's a bit like arguing that Explorer was the only thing keeping Netscape in line. With Apple shipping private attestation in their browsers and dragging their feet on open standards, it's hard to consider them a friend of the weak.
        jamespo 3y ago
        I'm not sure a comparison between Netscape & Google works
        smoldesu 3y ago
        It's a pity the Explorer/Safari one does. Maybe if Netscape had an Open Source version the metaphor would work a little better, though.
      - flohofwoe 3y ago
        Opening up iOS to other browser engines doesn't mean that suddenly Safari stops working. If anything it would force Safari to become competitive with Chrome.
  - prmoustache 3y ago
    on iOS Apple do not even allow the choice of the engine.
  - echelon 3y ago
    Apple doesn't even allow other browsers that aren't webkit reskins on iOS, which is far worse. Both companies need regulatory actions to reign them in. Apple probably needs to be broken up.
    - ffhhttt 3y ago
      Out of all the major tech companies that you could “break up” doing that to Apple would probably make the least sense. Integration between devices/software is their entire selling point.
      - pbmonster 3y ago
        Yes? That's a feature? I mean, nobody wants to break up companies in order to make the companies more effective or more profitable. It's always done to end monopolies, to open up closed markets. The people benefiting are consumers and competitors, not Apple itself.
        ffhhttt 3y ago
        Well it’s not at all obvious how consumers would benefit from that. If the deep integration between hardware, software and services is the main reason why people buy Apple’s products the harm from breaking the up might outweigh any of the benefits.
  - conartist6 3y ago
    Oh yes they do. Have you ever tried to assign the .mp4 extension to open with something other than QuickTime? It just doesn't work, and it hasn't worked for a looooong time.
    - jbfm 3y ago
      Just tried changing the default to VLC for all .mp4 files, works without a hitch
    - UnicornsOnLSD 3y ago
      IINA opens .mp4 files as the default fine for me
    - yakubin 3y ago
      Opens fine in IINA.app on my end.
    - jwells89 3y ago
      Most movie files, including mp4s, have been handled by mpv on my main system for a long time. No issues.
    - ChildOfChaos 3y ago
      What are you talking about? That is complete nonsense. I've never seen any video open in anything other than my default video player IINA, it's almost like quicktime isn't installed, i've never seen it pop up.
    - gcr 3y ago
      Both VLC and INIA work fine for opening .mp4 files from Finder. When you change the file association on OSX, be sure to also click the “Apply for all .mp4 files” button. Common mistake.
  - dantyti 3y ago
    Oh, they do. On my iPhone, I've: -changed the 'default browser' -'uninstalled' Safari Yet, whenever I want to search for a highlighted word, it opens Safari. This is such an absurd situation where I am browsing a site and want to do a search for something I just read and, instead of just opening a new tab or replacing the active tab with a web search, it opens a different browser app I do not want to use. This is just not the way any reasonable user would expect a system app to behave once all browser selection settings are configured to use a different browser.
    - classified 3y ago
      All "non-Safari" browsers are still just different skins on WebKit anyway.
    - adamas 3y ago
      That's not the behaviour I'm seeing, might be a bug on your phone's end.
      - throwaway09223 3y ago
        It certainly is the behavior you're seeing, in part because Safari is the only web browser on iphones. Firefox on iphone is just webkit. It is not actually Firefox. Chrome on iphone is just webkit. It is not actually Chrome.
        parminya 3y ago
        Firefox on iPhone is Firefox on iPhone, but it uses WebKit instead of Gecko. Chrome on iPhone is Chrome on iPhone, but it uses WebKit instead of Blink. The reason this is important for you to keep in mind is because Firefox is whatever Mozilla says Firefox is, and Chrome is whatever Google says Chrome is. There's no reason to suppose the iPhone version of some product should share any code with the Android version of the same product.
      - zarroboogs 3y ago
        Or on yours?
  - Turneyboy 3y ago
    At the very least they do not allow keychain to interact with browsers other than safari. This means that your autofill does not synchronize easily with your mobile devices. That's a choice that is not based on technical conditions and is pure disrespect of user preferences.
- zuhsetaqi 3y ago
  Where is Apple 'intentionally abusing their users by disrespecting their preferences'?
  - tomhallett 3y ago
    When someone texts me an address, the only option is “Open in Maps” which is for Apple Maps, when I’d clearly prefer Google Maps. When I click on an address in FB Messenger, I get the “open in google maps or Apple Maps” prompt, but choosing Google Maps just takes me to the Google Maps App Store page, even though I have the app installed and updated. If there is a solution to this problem (where my attempts failed for some reason), I’d be all ears. :)
    - zuhsetaqi 3y ago
      Ok, I get that. That's simply Apple not giving the option to set the preference in the first place. But I would argue that's a different thing than giving a user the option to set a default app and then ignoring it or reseting it automatically. When I change my browser or mail app on macOS or iOS it's stays like that. > When I click on an address in FB Messenger, I get the “open in google maps or Apple Maps” prompt, but choosing Google Maps just takes me to the Google Maps App Store page, even though I have the app installed and updated. Is it possible that this is only the case on FB Messenger? I think there are other Apps offering this option where it does work.
      - gcr 3y ago
        DoorDash opens google maps by default even though I prefer Apple Maps. This is almost certainly a bug in Messenger.
      - tomhallett 3y ago
        While I agree there is a bit of difference, it's somewhat inconsequential to the end user having their preferences respected: * Microsoft: we will let you set a preference, but we will ignore/reset it * Apple: we won't let you set a preference at all If someone wanted to say "Microsoft and Apple don't care about your preferences, but Microsoft is slightly worse", I think that'd be a fair thing to say. Agreed that apple's is a lack of a feature, BUT if you look at the features which apple does support, it feels closer to they don't want to add it for anti-competitve reasons, and not a technical/implementation reason * ios apps can be deep linked via "apple-app-site-association" * ios apps can have custom url schemes "comgooglemaps://?parameters" * android has had "intents" for a very long time * ios sms is already detecting "this is an address" from free text and is hot linking it to their maps app
- p0w3n3d 3y ago
  apple have different approach: just refuses to work (interoperability) with others, that's it. Protocol unimplemented ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- pjmlp 3y ago
  When their market size across EU is big enough for it to be relevant.
zabzonk 3y ago
[flagged]
- dartos 3y ago
  M$ has been a play on “MS” for decades
  - zabzonk 3y ago
    i know - and it has always been lame - all mega-corporations have always been about $
    - sph 3y ago
      True, but should one care about hurting M$'s feelings by calling it that?
- PartiallyTyped 3y ago
  It's pretty old thing. I know I have used it before a few hundred times. Anyway, do better. That comment isn't HN worthy.
  - zabzonk 3y ago
    > I know I have used it before a few hundred times well, perhaps cliche is your thing - it is not mine. "M$" is not worthy anywhere.
    - PartiallyTyped 3y ago
      I work for AW$, I need someone to look down on. /s
jrootabega 3y ago
If respecting user preferences reduced Edge/MS ecosystem adoption, then that's a cost.
- tremon 3y ago
  Not respecting user preferences also has a cost. It's just one that's harder to measure.
  - jrootabega 3y ago
    Yes, most everyone here understands that. Microsoft understands that better than anyone, and makes their decisions accordingly. The comment I replied to claimed that honoring user preferences had no cost.
beembeem 3y ago
It would actually cost them a significant amount in lost revenue. It's not merely disrespect of users, its money vs user goodwill.
HeckFeck 3y ago
The worst part is they have the resources to make a browser that people want, without having to shove it upon everyone. If they did the following in some alt timeline, I'd be a happy Edge user: - Stuck to EdgeHTML and Chakra for a better diversity of web technologies - No bloat, tracking, data siphoning, sign in pressure, sketchy financial services, bing integration shitware - Cross platform (Win/OSX/Lx at least) - Open source so we know there's no funny business That would be a genuinely interesting browser that would have a chance of selling itself. Instead we get a poor Chrome reskin that offers minimal incentive to use it.

omeid2 3y ago

On the windows front, it actually costs them more to make the feature geographic dependent. But on the browser dominance, the choice would actually cost M$.

desi_ninja 3y ago

When will Apple admit?

tmpX7dMeXU 3y ago
Apple doesn’t disrespect set user preferences in the same way that Microsoft does. This sort of oversimplified drive-by whataboutism isn’t great for conversation.
- jemmyw 3y ago
  They respect it on Mac and don't let you have a non WebKit browser on iOS
  - dijit 3y ago
    The hard and fast rule is: you're not permitted to have a source code interpreter. That's the "rules of engagement", same way you can't run Flash or Linux binaries; the same way you can't touch windows kernel space without a code-signing certificate from a eye-gouging authority. Exceptions to apples rule are rarely given, even for educational purposes; such as pythonista. When taken though that lens; if we hadn't turned everything into a fucking web-app: alternative interpreters of HTML/CSS could exist. Unrelated, but: Ironically the original vision for the iPhone was web-apps not native ones (as there was only an app store created after community backlash over Apple pushing people to the web).
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      > if we hadn't turned everything into a fucking web-app It's rich to hear this used as a defense of any corporation. Everything is a web app now because nobody got their act together to ship a true "write once, ship anywhere" platform. Microsoft smugly profited off this in the short term with Windows, and Apple used it as an excuse to double-down on their proprietary SDKs. It's obvious why everything is a webapp; what's the realistic alternative? Developing native apps for every platform on one device isn't even feasible nowadays. Then you'd need the developer subscriptions, a cross-platform app architecture and the willingness to write n number of UI mockups, where n is the number of target platforms you intend to hit. It's a veritable waste of time to do anything else.
      - dijit 3y ago
        Situation is not better on the desktop, it's just ironically not as annoying because of the insane dominance of Windows.
        smoldesu 3y ago
        It's not better anywhere. That's the problem, everything is a game of compromise and when you try to fix things for yourself a big company gives you the stink-eye. The web is the last place left where developers feel they have freedom, which should make us all feel very sad considering they run a whole-ass computer that they effectively ignore because of arbitrary restrictions.
        dijit 3y ago
        > The web is the last place left where developers feel they have freedom Come on, we have excellent open computing platforms; it's just not where the money is right now. Nobody can see passed their nose for profits though so we end up with lowest common denominator everything: which forces you to run a whole code interpreter on everything. Apple said "no, you can't" and that's where the money is, so you had (and continue to have) a choice and your business chooses to use it. So, you have to play by those rules. I mean, I'm not taking a stand here; despite people believing that I'm defending apple. You don't get the sit around though and reap the benefits of the system they built (and developers helped build) while simultaneously trying to tear it down. They set the rules, you all agreed to play by them; so why are we complaining? If you actually care you would make programs on one of the many open standards platforms which in turn would turn them into more attractive platforms as the ecosystem improved. But nobody does, everyone just wants the money now.
  - tengbretson 3y ago
    When I highlight text in `Terminal.app`, right-click, and then click "Search with Google" it opens Safari in spite of my preferences.
- slimsag 3y ago
  You can’t install non-WebKit browsers on iOS or iPadOS.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    That's not disrespecting a set user preference though, it's limiting what a user can do on their platform. Different even if just as or more shitty.
  - toxik 3y ago
    WebKit is probably the only thing holding the web open at this point. Imagine if this last bastion of non-Chromium went away, and Googles stranglehold on the web was finally total.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      The web isn't made open by forcing people to run specific client software. It's a bit like arguing that Explorer was the only thing keeping Netscape in line. With Apple shipping private attestation in their browsers and dragging their feet on open standards, it's hard to consider them a friend of the weak.
      - jamespo 3y ago
        I'm not sure a comparison between Netscape & Google works
        smoldesu 3y ago
        It's a pity the Explorer/Safari one does. Maybe if Netscape had an Open Source version the metaphor would work a little better, though.
    - flohofwoe 3y ago
      Opening up iOS to other browser engines doesn't mean that suddenly Safari stops working. If anything it would force Safari to become competitive with Chrome.
- prmoustache 3y ago
  on iOS Apple do not even allow the choice of the engine.
- echelon 3y ago
  Apple doesn't even allow other browsers that aren't webkit reskins on iOS, which is far worse. Both companies need regulatory actions to reign them in. Apple probably needs to be broken up.
  - ffhhttt 3y ago
    Out of all the major tech companies that you could “break up” doing that to Apple would probably make the least sense. Integration between devices/software is their entire selling point.
    - pbmonster 3y ago
      Yes? That's a feature? I mean, nobody wants to break up companies in order to make the companies more effective or more profitable. It's always done to end monopolies, to open up closed markets. The people benefiting are consumers and competitors, not Apple itself.
      - ffhhttt 3y ago
        Well it’s not at all obvious how consumers would benefit from that. If the deep integration between hardware, software and services is the main reason why people buy Apple’s products the harm from breaking the up might outweigh any of the benefits.
- conartist6 3y ago
  Oh yes they do. Have you ever tried to assign the .mp4 extension to open with something other than QuickTime? It just doesn't work, and it hasn't worked for a looooong time.
  - jbfm 3y ago
    Just tried changing the default to VLC for all .mp4 files, works without a hitch
  - UnicornsOnLSD 3y ago
    IINA opens .mp4 files as the default fine for me
  - yakubin 3y ago
    Opens fine in IINA.app on my end.
  - jwells89 3y ago
    Most movie files, including mp4s, have been handled by mpv on my main system for a long time. No issues.
  - ChildOfChaos 3y ago
    What are you talking about? That is complete nonsense. I've never seen any video open in anything other than my default video player IINA, it's almost like quicktime isn't installed, i've never seen it pop up.
  - gcr 3y ago
    Both VLC and INIA work fine for opening .mp4 files from Finder. When you change the file association on OSX, be sure to also click the “Apply for all .mp4 files” button. Common mistake.
- dantyti 3y ago
  Oh, they do. On my iPhone, I've: -changed the 'default browser' -'uninstalled' Safari Yet, whenever I want to search for a highlighted word, it opens Safari. This is such an absurd situation where I am browsing a site and want to do a search for something I just read and, instead of just opening a new tab or replacing the active tab with a web search, it opens a different browser app I do not want to use. This is just not the way any reasonable user would expect a system app to behave once all browser selection settings are configured to use a different browser.
  - classified 3y ago
    All "non-Safari" browsers are still just different skins on WebKit anyway.
  - adamas 3y ago
    That's not the behaviour I'm seeing, might be a bug on your phone's end.
    - throwaway09223 3y ago
      It certainly is the behavior you're seeing, in part because Safari is the only web browser on iphones. Firefox on iphone is just webkit. It is not actually Firefox. Chrome on iphone is just webkit. It is not actually Chrome.
      - parminya 3y ago
        Firefox on iPhone is Firefox on iPhone, but it uses WebKit instead of Gecko. Chrome on iPhone is Chrome on iPhone, but it uses WebKit instead of Blink. The reason this is important for you to keep in mind is because Firefox is whatever Mozilla says Firefox is, and Chrome is whatever Google says Chrome is. There's no reason to suppose the iPhone version of some product should share any code with the Android version of the same product.
    - zarroboogs 3y ago
      Or on yours?
- Turneyboy 3y ago
  At the very least they do not allow keychain to interact with browsers other than safari. This means that your autofill does not synchronize easily with your mobile devices. That's a choice that is not based on technical conditions and is pure disrespect of user preferences.
zuhsetaqi 3y ago
Where is Apple 'intentionally abusing their users by disrespecting their preferences'?
- tomhallett 3y ago
  When someone texts me an address, the only option is “Open in Maps” which is for Apple Maps, when I’d clearly prefer Google Maps. When I click on an address in FB Messenger, I get the “open in google maps or Apple Maps” prompt, but choosing Google Maps just takes me to the Google Maps App Store page, even though I have the app installed and updated. If there is a solution to this problem (where my attempts failed for some reason), I’d be all ears. :)
  - zuhsetaqi 3y ago
    Ok, I get that. That's simply Apple not giving the option to set the preference in the first place. But I would argue that's a different thing than giving a user the option to set a default app and then ignoring it or reseting it automatically. When I change my browser or mail app on macOS or iOS it's stays like that. > When I click on an address in FB Messenger, I get the “open in google maps or Apple Maps” prompt, but choosing Google Maps just takes me to the Google Maps App Store page, even though I have the app installed and updated. Is it possible that this is only the case on FB Messenger? I think there are other Apps offering this option where it does work.
    - gcr 3y ago
      DoorDash opens google maps by default even though I prefer Apple Maps. This is almost certainly a bug in Messenger.
    - tomhallett 3y ago
      While I agree there is a bit of difference, it's somewhat inconsequential to the end user having their preferences respected: * Microsoft: we will let you set a preference, but we will ignore/reset it * Apple: we won't let you set a preference at all If someone wanted to say "Microsoft and Apple don't care about your preferences, but Microsoft is slightly worse", I think that'd be a fair thing to say. Agreed that apple's is a lack of a feature, BUT if you look at the features which apple does support, it feels closer to they don't want to add it for anti-competitve reasons, and not a technical/implementation reason * ios apps can be deep linked via "apple-app-site-association" * ios apps can have custom url schemes "comgooglemaps://?parameters" * android has had "intents" for a very long time * ios sms is already detecting "this is an address" from free text and is hot linking it to their maps app
p0w3n3d 3y ago
apple have different approach: just refuses to work (interoperability) with others, that's it. Protocol unimplemented ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
pjmlp 3y ago
When their market size across EU is big enough for it to be relevant.

zabzonk 3y ago

[flagged]

dartos 3y ago
M$ has been a play on “MS” for decades
- zabzonk 3y ago
  i know - and it has always been lame - all mega-corporations have always been about $
  - sph 3y ago
    True, but should one care about hurting M$'s feelings by calling it that?
PartiallyTyped 3y ago
It's pretty old thing. I know I have used it before a few hundred times. Anyway, do better. That comment isn't HN worthy.
- zabzonk 3y ago
  > I know I have used it before a few hundred times well, perhaps cliche is your thing - it is not mine. "M$" is not worthy anywhere.
  - PartiallyTyped 3y ago
    I work for AW$, I need someone to look down on. /s

jrootabega 3y ago

If respecting user preferences reduced Edge/MS ecosystem adoption, then that's a cost.

tremon 3y ago
Not respecting user preferences also has a cost. It's just one that's harder to measure.
- jrootabega 3y ago
  Yes, most everyone here understands that. Microsoft understands that better than anyone, and makes their decisions accordingly. The comment I replied to claimed that honoring user preferences had no cost.

beembeem 3y ago

It would actually cost them a significant amount in lost revenue. It's not merely disrespect of users, its money vs user goodwill.

HeckFeck 3y ago

The worst part is they have the resources to make a browser that people want, without having to shove it upon everyone. If they did the following in some alt timeline, I'd be a happy Edge user: - Stuck to EdgeHTML and Chakra for a better diversity of web technologies - No bloat, tracking, data siphoning, sign in pressure, sketchy financial services, bing integration shitware - Cross platform (Win/OSX/Lx at least) - Open source so we know there's no funny business That would be a genuinely interesting browser that would have a chance of selling itself. Instead we get a poor Chrome reskin that offers minimal incentive to use it.