12 ms·
The end of cool small cars
- fmajid 3y agoThey are disappearing for the same reason as stick-shift cars or small phones. Consumer demonstrate with their preferences they think bigger is better.
- etempleton 3y agoYou saw a resurgence of small cars in the US around 2010 after the US housing bubble burst. High unemployment + suppressed wages + high gas prices had Americans, particularly young Americans, looking for small compact cars.
- starkparker 3y agoYeah, the Honda Fit was one of the best-selling cars in the US for a few years of the late 00s. Peaked around 2008, when it outsold the Ford Explorer and Chevy TrailBlazer. Even then Honda sold about 450k fewer Fits that year than F-series trucks, and 120k fewer Fits than CR-V crossovers. Writing was on the wall by 2014, when Honda tried to sell an awful 20kWh/sub-100 mi. range EV Fit, and it never recovered. Gone completely from the US by 2020.
- germinalphrase 3y agoMy Fit has been rock solid, and because the back seats fold totally flat - the usable cargo space is substantial. Two large car seats in the back is no issue (though three would require buying specifically narrow seats). 35-40 mpg. It’s not fancy, but it’s a fantastic city vehicle.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- chriscappuccio 3y agoIn the US, small trucks disappeared because of the EPA mandates for fuel mileage. The idea that there is no market for them is plain wrong. Even small trucks like the ranger got much larger because the engines are not efficient enough to meet the EPA mileage and emissions requirements for small wheel base vehicles. The idea that the move to larger vehicles is due to an arms race or due to insecurities is simply wrong. It may appear this way but the truth is that mileage requirements drive design including wheelbase. The EPA requirements are frequently revised and are too aggressive to allow any of our beloved small cars and trucks to exist on the road today in any form.
- runamok 3y agoI love my VW GTI. I just drive it like my motorcycle: assume either no one sees me or is actively trying to kill me. So far, so good.
- dusted 3y agoI've noticed a large increase in what I call "idiot cars" in Denmark too, these giant monstrosities that seem impractical in every way except for driving through smaller cars and making sure the driver survives whatever incompetence lead them to buy it in the first place. I feel it might be time to legislate this, there are perfectly legitimate reasons to drive a very large car, like, you live 100 miles from the nearest town and there are no roads, only swamp, marsh and desert between you and the grocery, or you haul around your pet cow all day.. Good, have your car, you need it. In every other case. You don't and you're an idiot helping to accelerate the problem as this now becomes a weapons race on the road, nobody with a normal-sized car will want to drive it surrounded by idiot-cars, as they're simply too dangerous to be around in anything besides an idiot car.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Aromasin 3y agoSame in the UK. SUVs and large off-road vehicles are taking over. The Range Rover seems to be the car of choice for every wealthy middle-aged mother on her morning school run. Just recently, one of them managed to careen hers into kids outside their school, killing a number of them [1]. Low emission zone are becoming more ubiquitous, which combats the issue to some regards, but I question why anyone but a farmer needs to own anything that large anywhere. This isn't the US, where pavements/sidewalks are a pipedream for anyone outside of New York. Nobody should be solo operating tanks just 5m away from someone walking their dog or on their way to school. [1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/wimbledon-car-crash-victim-dead-b2370550.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/wimbledon-ca...
- sw104 3y agoRange Rovers are a disease in the UK. A brand which had it's origins in the military and farming, which has now been repurposed to drop kids off at a school. It's also the most frequent car I see which is sped around and overtakes with zero concern for other road users. The people driving them seem to not understand the size of their car and either pass over-cautiously or tunnel through everybody else whenever the road is partially obstructed (parked cars in towns and villages). The modern Range Rovers no longer even work for their original purpose. They're not sturdy enough to last on a farm, just fashion symbols. When I question if humanity will tame itself and step down from destroying our world in the pursuit of comfort and consumerism at all costs, the first thing I think of is a white Range Rover Discovery.
- expertentipp 3y agoSome say that traveling educates, meantime people coming back from a travel to US immediately turn into "I want big-ass loud intimidating pickup occupying two parking spaces!"
- CameronNemo 3y agoWe never said it would be a good education ;)
- geff82 3y agoIndeed traveling educated me concerning cars. 1.) When traveling through the US, I understood that giant cars ("rolling living rooms") make perfect sense for the often long distances that have to be driven to get from one place to the other. 2.) When traveling through Italy, I understood why most people have a small Fiat Panda (because villages are so tight that even my moderately sized family car almost feels too big there). Americans might not all need big cars (or at least one car of the household could probably be a compact), but it is not obscenity that Americans/Canadians have bigger cars.
- FranzFerdiNaN 3y agoBigger means like a Ford Focus or so, not a fucking SUV. Nobody ever needs an SUV. If you need more space to move stuff just get a van.
- etempleton 3y agoA lot of SUVs are more or less the same thing as a minivan. The minivan, like the station wagon is a casualty of its own success. Both became synonymous with boring domestic middle class family life.
- blamazon 3y agoThe recent Kia Carnival (name for US market IIRC) is an interesting response to this phenomenon. It's a true minivan that's just styled as if it's an SUV.
- RamblingCTO 3y agoDon't worry, they are disappearing in Europe as well, mostly (imho) thanks to ever stricter security standards. I read that it's very hard to design a small car that adheres to modern standards.
- Arnt 3y agoSource?
- RamblingCTO 3y agoQuick googling: https://europe.autonews.com/sales-segment/automakers-fight-rescue-small-cars-extinction-eu-rules-bite https://europe.autonews.com/sales-segment/automakers-fight-r... > "New CO2 rules will require automakers to fit thousands of euros of tech to each car," Max Warburton, an analyst at research and brokerage firm Sanford C. Bernstein wrote in an April report. "Big cars have the price points and margins to cover these costs. Small cars simply do not. These segments may soon be abandoned by many manufacturers."
- Arnt 3y agoOh, so it's about inexpensive/expensive cars, and size is just something that correlates with that. I see.
- tonyedgecombe 3y agoI think the real reason is it's very hard to make money on a small car.
- cookiengineer 3y agoI think the VW beetle would disagree. The Avtovaz Lada, too. Opel Corsa, Mazda Familia, Fiat Uno, Trabant 601, Toyota Corolla, VW Golf, Renault Clio, Seat Ibiza... All of those the best or second best selling models of their manufacturers.
- 3y ago
- cjs_ac 3y agoA lot of the analysis on this issue relates to the supply side of the market - manufacturers maximising margins and increasing safety standards - but the demand side plays a role too. For the past fifteen years, we've lived with negligible interest rates and (for most people) stagnating wages. This encourages consumers to cut back on small-ticket items but splurge on items bought on credit (mostly houses and cars). This environment is crumbling: many older people went into retirement (or were forced into it) during the pandemic, and many working mothers found that the cost of childcare exceeded their contribution to the household finances; this reduced labour pool coupled with increasing interest rates (in part a response to that smaller labour pool) will push car buyers to be more thrifty. I expect to see smaller cars return to dealer forecourts in the next couple of years, especially in Europe.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- grunder_advice 3y agoI don't believe that it is the end. Because small cars make more sense than big ass SUVs from a whole lot of angles: safety on the roads, energy efficiency, parking, traffic in cities, cost for the consumer. It is a policy failure that we ended up in this situation, a hard one to fix, but I still think that it is inevitable that we will revert to smaller vehicles, eventually.
- etempleton 3y agoI generally agree with you, but small cars are a lot less safe on a highway with tractor trailers and big SUVs around.
- ianburrell 3y agoBig SUVs and pickup trucks are less or equally safe to mid-size SUVs and cars. The pickup frame is durable but doesn't provide good occupant protection. Also, big vehicles are more likely to crash being less maneuverable. Plus, a good portion of crashes are single-car and doesn't matter how big truck is if crash into pillar.
- nateoearth 3y agoThis is sadly untrue; larger vehicles are safer, and the largest are the safest. Legislation is the only way I can see to stop the vehicle size/weight arms race. https://www.iihs.org/api/datastoredocument/status-report/pdf/55/2 https://www.iihs.org/api/datastoredocument/status-report/pdf...
- dontlaugh 3y agoYes, but also there's nothing wrong with the Yaris.
- rwmj 3y agoExcept even the Yaris has got bigger over the years. (Nothing like the Mini which is now a kind of SUV).
- flyingfences 3y agoExcept that the Toyota Yaris has been cancelled entirely in the US market, along with the Prius C, the Honda Fit, the Nissan Versa hatch, the Ford Fiesta (and all Ford cars except the Mustang), the Fiat 500, the Smart Car, the Mitsubishi Mirage, and every small hatchback except the (overpriced and controversially styled) Mini and a couple of electric models.
- dontlaugh 3y agoSure, the US has a weird problem that the article talks about. I'm disagreeing with the "(ew)" aimed at the Yaris in the article. It's no worse than the Honda Jazz, Ford Fiesta, VW Polo, etc.
- 1231112315123 3y agoThere's actually a new class of cars that doesn't go by the name: L7e. L7e is the EU's name for light electric cars. 90 km/h top speed, 200 km range. Cheap. While small "cars" might disappear, I think the L7e class will see a lot of improvements.
- bad_alloc 3y agoThis still leaved the gap for small cars you can cram 4 people inside + some luggage unfilled. Also, are manufacturers taking L7e vehicles seriously, or are they styling them like toys still? Early EVs suffered form car companies deliberately making them look non-serious.
- 1231112315123 3y agoI think the Renault Twizy is a great example where it was made too much of a toy - and I pretty much stopped following the developments in the L7e space with that. But now a lot of Chinese companies seem to sell vehicles that are actually useful - mostly in the last-mile delivery space. This one convinced me that you can build useful vehicles: https://www.ari-motors.com https://www.ari-motors.com Essentially, L7e could perhaps be the Kei car of Europe?
- mbwgh 3y agoI didn't know about this, looks pretty neat. Unfortunately, 90 km/h top speed is a hard sell here in Germany, since that means that you will get in other people's way when driving on federal roads or the Autobahn, provoking people into dangerous overtaking manoeuvres. In addition to cars having become noticeably larger in the last years, people's driving styles has (imo) become more aggressive also.
- hnbear 3y agoGiven how horribly the biggest trucks drive around me (NYC suburbs), I’m all in favor of treating trucks like trucks. If you’re over 3000lb then you get speed limited to 55, require additional driving licensing for the heavier, more cumbersome special purpose vehicle, etc. Treat trucks like trucks and encourage behavior in the direction that’s societally appropriate. The cars overtaking me the most are 5,000lb F250s and 2500s doing 80+. They’re the same ones racing on 25mph residential streets, and over taking school buses. The size and protection is a moral hazard that causes incredibly bad behavior. And that’s before you get to the morons with the serious lifts and 35”+ tires, deliberately rolling coal as they drive around.
- daisystanton 3y agoUghhhhh -- yes, I constantly dream of a pickup truck on a car-size chassis, and often mentally hack off the back of cars on my jogs to imagine what they'd look like as trucks (my version of imagining girls naked ;-)) * The Auzzies had an old version of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ute_(vehicle) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ute_(vehicle) * There's an awesome Tesla pickup truck mod that I'd buy long before the Cybertruck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R35gWBtLCYg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R35gWBtLCYg
- tabiv 3y agoThe closest thing we have these days is the Ford Maverick. It's a ute! They're not very available though.
- cf100clunk 3y agoAuzzies? That would be ''Aussies'', mate, and the market for the ''ute'' is alive and well to this day there and in New Zealand. Australian car buyers have also tended to prefer 4-door sedans to 2-door coupes.
- daisystanton 3y agoAs for the "why": I'd love to learn about all of the historical and regulatory incentives here. From what I've managed to cobble together, this is partly due to CAFE standards[1], partly due to Section 179 of the US tax code[2], and possibly(??) due to contractor demand[3]. [1]: In 2006, the NHTSA adopted a "footprint" approach to CAFE standards, where fuel efficiency standards are set based on the vehicle's wheelbase multiplied by its average track width. I haven't dug into why this is the case, but people seem to agree that this results in less stringent fuel economy targets for larger-sized vehicles. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy [2] A key piece of U.S. tax code, Section 179 allows businesses to deduct the full purchase price of qualifying equipment up to $1M(!) For trucks, the vehicle must have a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) over 6000 pounds to qualify for the Section 179 deduction. This incentivizes businesses to purchase larger, heavier trucks. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_179_depreciation_deduction#Large_vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_179_depreciation_deduc... [3] A friend told me (citation needed!) that the ability for a truck bed to carry 4x8-foot drywall sheets is often advertised as a selling point (is this true?). I suspect a lot of this is just the US market lusting after "bigger is better", but I'd love to hear anything others know about this. Anyone have details they could add to this?
- mindslight 3y agoIt's hard to figure the importance of #3. As just a home DIYer, I would generally think transporting 4x8 sheet goods would be critical. But I happily move sheet goods with a trailer now, towed by a light SUV. Even not having much truck experience, I'd say it's easier to load/unload than a truck (can you fork things from the side out of a standard pickup bed?). So if I wanted a truck for more towing capacity, the sheet goods thing wouldn't really matter as I could always use the trailer. But I also think a lot of contractors tow enclosed trailers that keep all their tools and whatnot, so perhaps they're back to wanting larger trucks for times when they need one or two sheet goods easily (for larger quantities they'll often use delivery. I love those three wheeled rough terrain forklifts) I'd think I'm solidly in the target market for something like a kei truck, but they don't have much appeal for me. Little towing capacity. Poor crash standards means they wouldn't be good for the case of driving a medium highway distance to pick up something off craigslist. Perhaps if one with a dump bed fell into my lap.
- ewgoforth 3y agoThis video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azI3nqrHEXM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azI3nqrHEXM explains why small pickup trucks can't really be sold in the USA anymore. This explains the drive to larger pickups, but I don't know what explains the drive from cars to trucks/SUVs. We were considering a wagon when we bought our last vehicle, an SUV. The ability to occasionally carry more than five people was the deciding point. I believe crash standards prevent the selling of wagons with a "wayback" anymore.
- aidenn0 3y agoHoly cow that explains at least some of what's going on. I'm still not sure why trucks are getting taller too; I saw a 1990ish Toyota Pickup next to a late model F-150 and the hood of the Ford was almost as high as the roof of the Toyota.
- Kon-Peki 3y agoThe Mercedes E450 wagon has the rear-facing 3rd row as standard equipment in the USA. Because of course you wanted a wagon with a starting price of $75k without any options.
- aidenn0 3y agoWe legitimately considered it; there are no cars that seat 7 for under $40k new these days, so it's less-than-double the price of the cheapest option. Totally off-topic, but I actually saw a E450 wagon AMG on the streets the other day. Had no clue they even made one of those. Will only set you back $177k
- CobaltFire 3y agoYou could possibly grab a Metris for ~$40k on closeout, though it might be a bit too basic for you. It's amazing for us.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Kon-Peki 3y agoCities should start putting in bollards that prevent wide vehicles from passing but let narrow ones through. Make the bollards retractable into the ground. If you want your big-arse vehicle to go through, you have to stop and then pay 10 $/£/€
- porkbeer 3y agoWhile well meaning, this sounds dystopian. Neverming backing up traffic for smaller cars.
- amadeuspagel 3y agoCars should be taxed based on weight.
- jaredhallen 3y agoIn the US they are.
- hbn 3y agoI've always driven a small car and it's what I prefer to drive. They're easy to handle, I like being able to not worry as much about navigating tight curbs, and fit into smaller or "small car only" parking spaces, etc. But man, sometimes I pull up beside one of these absurdly huge modern trucks and I'm basically just staring at their wheels. It's terrifying to think if I collided head-on with one of these, they'd probably just run me over. Or the entire truck body would shave off the top of my car, along with my head. It makes me want to upgrade to a stupid big vehicle too, just for my own safety.
- Cagrosso 3y agoYou describe the exact reason I sold my Civic for a Rav4. My commute often had me looking at tires out my sides, headlights and grill in the rear, and a tow hitch out the front.
- mitch3x3 3y agoI ended up having replace a compact with a crossover mainly to stop getting blinded by headlights at night time. It was getting way too dangerous. I tinted the back window, but was still getting blinded in the side mirrors.
- i2km 3y agoAs my modest contribution to the battle against SUVs/crossovers/other bloat, I am attempting to popularise the term ‘bimbo box’ - the credit of which belongs to Neal Stephenson’s Snow Crash
- southwesterly 3y agoI call them the more offensive “TwatPanzers”
- porkbeer 3y agoThis is vulgar, unhelful, and childish. Why is this even on HN?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- porkbeer 3y agoHow is calling names helpful? Can we please act like adults? Treating others badly only reflects on your character.
- brocklobsta 3y agoOh the unintended consequences of government regulations. CAFE and Section 179 incentivize larger vehicles, so the market reacts rationally and fills that demand. P.S. I love small trucks with big wheels.
- wcarron 3y agoWhile the author rightfully decries the bloating of the Rav4, it's pretty close to a perfect size for a couple who consistently travels outdoors. Our '14 Subie crosstrek just shit its transmission out and we migrated to a used pre-facelift Rav out of necessity, being in a small city with little pub transport and poor infrastructure. I just really, really wish a carmaker would make something that size, and put it on a real 4x4 platform. AWD is okay, but if you're really gettin' out there, sometimes you just need that extra capability. As of right now, there's basically no true 4x4 out there that has decent cargo space and isn't absolutely gigantic. New Jeeps are as big as old Hummers (which used to be considered massive), the Bronco has piss-poor cargo space for just how bloated the thing is. The 4Runner is getting bigger almost every year. There simply are no worthwhile new, small, capable vehicles for sale. A Rav4 or Outback sized body-on-frame 4x4, with an 8 speed auto or 6-spd manual, good suspension, cupholders that fit a Hydroflask, and some sturdy roof rails and a hitch to hold a bike rack is the ideal outdoor vehicle, imo. Toss in the new niceties like wireless phone charger, CarPlay/Android Auto, and blind spot detection, adaptive CC, etc. to make paved driving a bit nicer, and you're golden.
- timbit42 3y agoIt sounds like you want a station wagon.
- CobaltFire 3y agoJust as a note: The 4Runner (and related GX) haven't changed in size since 2004 (GX this year got larger). They aren't "getting bigger every year"; they've stayed basically the same size for a very long time. The incoming Tacoma/4R is almost the same size as that 2004 model, and is a hybrid to boot with a true 4WD system. It's larger than the RAV4, but the gap has gotten smaller every time the RAV4 gets larger. Source: Currently have a 2004 GX470, used to have a 2018 GX460, most of my friends have 4R's or Tacoma's. Note that my daily is a Mercedes Metris because my child is special needs; the GX has been in the family for a very long time at this point.
- chiefbucket 3y agoI wonder how much of this perception is based on the observer’s age. To me “trucks have gotten so much bigger than I remember” but what I think of as my formative car years were late 90s, so of course that is how it feels… it’s for sure true that rigs have ballooned since ‘95. It’s not necessarily true they have since 2015?
- lincon127 3y agoLarge cars can suck my many pickled cocks, they are absolutely worthless.
- stuaxo 3y agoThis is true. I'm in the UK and cars are getting bigger and uglier for no reason, just like taller versions of existing cars. People don't realise that big cars look stupid.
- blibble 3y agothey're less stable, less safe, perform worse, have less space for storage, have worse fuel economy, worse visibility, more difficult to maneuver/fit into parking and cost more and yet they seem to be completely taking over in the UK we don't even have the "light truck" excuse
- FooBarBizBazz 3y agoIs there a street-legal modification we could make to small sedans that would massively increase the risk of death to an SUV/truck owner (and ideally only that) in the event of a collision? Until the lethal calculus is equalized, the arms race is going to continue. SUV drivers have to start dying. I know it sounds extreme, but the fact that they don't die and that the other guy dies instead, is the entire reason they choose the SUV, even if they don't say it. Until that changes, the best-response function is just going to keep returning "bigger SUV". This is literally a matter of life and death, so fucking play to win. You need something like MAD, but specifically targeted at SUVs.
- Vecr 3y agoIn theory that would be protected by the second amendment but I'm not sure how it would go over in practice. I can't actually think of anything though, contractors in the middle east took out the fuel pump kill switch, removed the airbags, and sometimes did something to reinforce the frame rails, but that's pretty much it. A roll cage could work, but then you need a full face helmet and a HANS device. Sticking anything to the front of the car would probably just kill pedestrians.
- tmerc 3y agoMaybe fill the car with lithium ion batteries?
- jet_32951 3y agoIt's hard to know what to mourn more here: the subsumption of NSU into Volkswagenwerke AG, or the demise of Citroën in the USA. Both manufacturers had genuinely fresh ideas; both provided truly mold-breaking machinery.