2 ms·

>shouldn't the process be that a court of competent jurisdiction should be able to issue an order the same people who decry this will also decry the government

>shouldn't the process be that a court of competent jurisdiction should be able to issue an order the same people who decry this will also decry the government taking charge of internet moderation at the ISP level, probably even louder. This entire discussion is bizarre and academic. The site in question has engaged in doxxing and other activities that has led to real world harm, including suicides, and content on there is already probably illegal. If I run a business, and I know a customer is doing something like that, I have an ethical obligation to not facilitate it. I don't start some ideological discussion about whether some hypothetical court can prevent it given that nobody apparently can be bothered to actually make that a reality. Imagine I have an axe shop and a known axe murderer walks through the door, and instead of not selling him an axe I propose we have a year long debate about the proper formal process of axe murder prevention supported by the Axe Rights Foundation. Granted this is how America actually (does not) deal with gun violence so I'm not surprised we are now in the pro-doxxer rights debate

toast0 3y ago
> the same people who decry this will also decry the government taking charge of internet moderation at the ISP level, probably even louder. Probably, yes. Which is why I mentioned the first part of the issue. Otoh, when the government does a takedown with court orders, there's always people yelling about it, but it's not as loud as when the government does a takedown without at least the appearance of due process or when a business does it without any due process. > content on there is already probably illegal. If the issue is illegal content, there should be indictments and court orders. Or at least, search warrants and seized equipment. > If I run a business, and I know a customer is doing something like that, I have an ethical obligation to not facilitate it. Depends on the circumstances of the business. IMHO, common carriers and businesses that are an awful lot like common carriers have an ethical standard to deliver all messages and parcels that are not unduly burdensome to the delivery of other messages and parcels. This standard allows for blocking network abuse, probably spam, ddos, explosive packages, packages that emit noxious fumes or odors, etc. But not delivering letters because of their content isn't ethical for a letter delivery service, in my mind.
- Barrin92 3y ago
  nobody has any obligation to deliver anything they know will cause someone harm. That is pretty much by definition the violation of an ethical standard. 'Neutrality' in the face of someone's life being threatened by someone else is cowardice. And to make things clear, directly from the EFF article: "A site that provides a forum for gamifying abuse and doxxing, whose users have celebrated on its pages the IRL deaths of the targets of their harassment campaigns[...]" If you knowingly facilitate a website which itself takes ownership of deaths they have caused proudly, you are abandoning your civic duty. And we can go farther, not only has any ISP obligation to stop this, any hacker who can should take that site down, and anyone who has some resources left over should aid. Not a single inch should be given to these people, not just by the law but by everyone else. Do you understand how cynical it is to hide behind neutrality or free speech to let people terrorize others to death and laugh about it?
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    > nobody has any obligation to deliver anything they know will cause someone harm. That is pretty much by definition the violation of an ethical standard 1. I think the postal service does. Can you find me guidelines to the contrary? 2. Most connections to the IP block are not doing harm. This is more like refusing to deliver any mail to a mafia boss, and maybe also the entire neighborhood.
    - chonkerz 3y ago
      >1. I think the postal service does. Can you find me guidelines to the contrary? How about instead, you show us a postal service guideline that says they have to deliver mail that they know to be harmful. There is no such guideline. That's insane.
      - toast0 3y ago
        > 18 U.S. Code § 1703 - Delay or destruction of mail or newspapers (a) Whoever, being a Postal Service officer or employee, unlawfully secretes, destroys, detains, delays, or opens any letter, postal card, package, bag, or mail entrusted to him or which shall come into his possession, and which was intended to be conveyed by mail, or carried or delivered by any carrier or other employee of the Postal Service, or forwarded through or delivered from any post office or station thereof established by authority of the Postmaster General or the Postal Service, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. This sets the basic expectation that mail will be delivered, and intentionally not delivering mail is a crime, although it allows for lawful exceptions, and therefore, if you wish to assert that the postal service has discretion to purposefully not deliver mail, you have the burden to cite the law or regulation allowing them to do so. I've looked at several laws recognizing particular items as unmailable, but I don't see anything that fits your assertion that they have to deliver mail they know is harmful to the recipient or someone else who isn't the sender or the recipient. 18 U.S. Code § 1716 - Injurious articles as nonmailable [1] has a list of items that are injurious and so can't be mailed, but these are things like poisonous animals, long bladed knifes and such, not harassment or suggestions to harass others with contact details. 18 U.S. Code § 1717 - Letters and writings as nonmailable [2] has a list of things you can't mail letters in relation to, which are mostly about forging government papers, defense secrecy stuff, but also 18 U.S. Code § 956 - Conspiracy to kill, kidnap, maim, or injure persons or damage property in a foreign country [3]. But it seems that letters regarding a conspiracy to injure persons within the united states are mailable. There's also some very limited restrictions on mailing sexually oriented advertisements. [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1716 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1716 [2] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1717 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1717 [3] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/956 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/956

toast0 3y ago

> the same people who decry this will also decry the government taking charge of internet moderation at the ISP level, probably even louder. Probably, yes. Which is why I mentioned the first part of the issue. Otoh, when the government does a takedown with court orders, there's always people yelling about it, but it's not as loud as when the government does a takedown without at least the appearance of due process or when a business does it without any due process. > content on there is already probably illegal. If the issue is illegal content, there should be indictments and court orders. Or at least, search warrants and seized equipment. > If I run a business, and I know a customer is doing something like that, I have an ethical obligation to not facilitate it. Depends on the circumstances of the business. IMHO, common carriers and businesses that are an awful lot like common carriers have an ethical standard to deliver all messages and parcels that are not unduly burdensome to the delivery of other messages and parcels. This standard allows for blocking network abuse, probably spam, ddos, explosive packages, packages that emit noxious fumes or odors, etc. But not delivering letters because of their content isn't ethical for a letter delivery service, in my mind.

Barrin92 3y ago
nobody has any obligation to deliver anything they know will cause someone harm. That is pretty much by definition the violation of an ethical standard. 'Neutrality' in the face of someone's life being threatened by someone else is cowardice. And to make things clear, directly from the EFF article: "A site that provides a forum for gamifying abuse and doxxing, whose users have celebrated on its pages the IRL deaths of the targets of their harassment campaigns[...]" If you knowingly facilitate a website which itself takes ownership of deaths they have caused proudly, you are abandoning your civic duty. And we can go farther, not only has any ISP obligation to stop this, any hacker who can should take that site down, and anyone who has some resources left over should aid. Not a single inch should be given to these people, not just by the law but by everyone else. Do you understand how cynical it is to hide behind neutrality or free speech to let people terrorize others to death and laugh about it?
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  > nobody has any obligation to deliver anything they know will cause someone harm. That is pretty much by definition the violation of an ethical standard 1. I think the postal service does. Can you find me guidelines to the contrary? 2. Most connections to the IP block are not doing harm. This is more like refusing to deliver any mail to a mafia boss, and maybe also the entire neighborhood.
  - chonkerz 3y ago
    >1. I think the postal service does. Can you find me guidelines to the contrary? How about instead, you show us a postal service guideline that says they have to deliver mail that they know to be harmful. There is no such guideline. That's insane.
    - toast0 3y ago
      > 18 U.S. Code § 1703 - Delay or destruction of mail or newspapers (a) Whoever, being a Postal Service officer or employee, unlawfully secretes, destroys, detains, delays, or opens any letter, postal card, package, bag, or mail entrusted to him or which shall come into his possession, and which was intended to be conveyed by mail, or carried or delivered by any carrier or other employee of the Postal Service, or forwarded through or delivered from any post office or station thereof established by authority of the Postmaster General or the Postal Service, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. This sets the basic expectation that mail will be delivered, and intentionally not delivering mail is a crime, although it allows for lawful exceptions, and therefore, if you wish to assert that the postal service has discretion to purposefully not deliver mail, you have the burden to cite the law or regulation allowing them to do so. I've looked at several laws recognizing particular items as unmailable, but I don't see anything that fits your assertion that they have to deliver mail they know is harmful to the recipient or someone else who isn't the sender or the recipient. 18 U.S. Code § 1716 - Injurious articles as nonmailable [1] has a list of items that are injurious and so can't be mailed, but these are things like poisonous animals, long bladed knifes and such, not harassment or suggestions to harass others with contact details. 18 U.S. Code § 1717 - Letters and writings as nonmailable [2] has a list of things you can't mail letters in relation to, which are mostly about forging government papers, defense secrecy stuff, but also 18 U.S. Code § 956 - Conspiracy to kill, kidnap, maim, or injure persons or damage property in a foreign country [3]. But it seems that letters regarding a conspiracy to injure persons within the united states are mailable. There's also some very limited restrictions on mailing sexually oriented advertisements. [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1716 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1716 [2] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1717 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1717 [3] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/956 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/956