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A absolutely despise what companies like Taylor do. Rather than innovating their product, they realized its cheaper if they have their lawyers engineer a way to

A absolutely despise what companies like Taylor do. Rather than innovating their product, they realized its cheaper if they have their lawyers engineer a way to lock in their customers to their product over their competitors'. And you seem to see this more and more. It seems that these days the product quality itself doesn't matter, it's all about the contracts that your legal team setup in the background. I have to ask the engineers that work at these companies: does it bother you that the only reason people use your product is that they would get sued if they tried using another product? How does it make you feel that your product is so bad the only thing keeping your customers in the door is the contracts your legal team drew up.

rightbyte 3y ago
When deals are bad enough, a always suspect bribery. Unless it is public procurements, then I blame too strict lowest bidder rules.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  No, in public procurement it's still bribery. You just carefully tailor the tender to the company that the fix is already in for. When I worked in state government, every vendor of products was simply a middleman who marked a bunch of stuff up that you could easily buy from standard wholesale sources. Their catalogs would be three-hole binders of photocopies from other people's catalogs and printouts from ecommerce webpages with the prices whited out, and a pricelist typed up in word at the back. Every vendor of services was connected to an insider who tipped them off that purchases were about to be made. The lowest bidder was selected from the people who could jump through the hoops required to submit bids, and who also fit the carefully written RFP.
- Tangurena2 3y ago
  In the case of Quiznos, it was kickbacks from the service company. Even when your soda machine was still under warranty, the franchise agreement required the store owner to use only one "authorized" company to repair the machines and pay them $75 per visit. https://www.westword.com/news/youre-toast-5092405?showFullText=true https://www.westword.com/news/youre-toast-5092405?showFullTe... Westword is Denver's alternative weekly newspaper. Quiznos started in Denver.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
neilv 3y ago
Careful with your stones in glass houses, on HN, of all places. We're the community in which virtually every Web site we deploy sells out privacy of its users to third parties. And that's before we get into the commonplace UX behavior against users' interests, numerous startups which are essentially investment scams, some of our most celebrated startup successes only existing because an app is a smokescreen that lets them violate regulations long enough, and general background underhandedness and entitlement so pervasive that we now consider it normal.
- nwsm 3y ago
  Speak for yourself. I would never leak or sell user data. I just develop B2B software that provides no value
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    All B2B software has value. It's just that often the value is "I bought this and even though it provides no value, it's pretty enough that it impressed my boss and I got a raise and promotion"
- wizzwizz4 3y ago
  > We're the community in which virtually every Web site we deploy sells out privacy of its users to third parties. Simply don't do that, then. It's not hard. (And… why even increase your liability and reduce your hiring pool by being relentlessly unethical? The trade-off isn't worth it, even if you're a stereotypical heartless executive.)
  - lostlogin 3y ago
    > The trade-off isn't worth it I entirely agree with your sentiment but financially, Adtech has done quite well for itself.
    - wizzwizz4 3y ago
      For itself.
lamontcg 3y ago
> I have to ask the engineers that work at these companies [...] Yeah, global warming is also entirely my fault because I just don't recycle hard enough.
Alupis 3y ago
What happens if the replacement parts aren't actually as good, safe or reliable as the originals? McDonald's gets bad PR, or a lawsuit depending on the severity. Look, I'm all for better repair options and Right to Repair, but McDonald's is selling consistency and their reputation is on the line (not the franchisee) when something goes wrong or people get sick. For those reasons alone, it's not unreasonable to force franchisees to use a specific brand of machines, contract a specific company for repairs, and use specific OEM parts. CYA big time in so many ways. What people are forgetting here is McDonald's has an interest in these machines working as well as possible (revenue + reputation), and the franchisee also has an interest in these machines working as well as possible (revenue). The franchisee however, does not necessarily care about the McDonald's brand and reputation, and given the option might choose degraded parts/safety to save money - causing a problem for McDonalds. So... McDonald's says you have to use these approved machines and get service/parts from this approved vendor. Case closed... The only people who seem to really care about this issue are customers. That won't be enough to force a private company to open the door to any yahoo repair company with Wish.com replacement parts.
- PartiallyTyped 3y ago
  > What happens if the replacement parts aren't actually as good, safe or reliable as the originals? I don't see how that line of thinking is any different to the argument manufacturers are making regarding right to repair. The response is simple, all parts must be G.A. and manufacturers can't force the company they are sourcing their parts from to not sell to third parties. McDonalds can very well sue the franchise for not following the guidelines and ordering bad parts.
  - Alupis 3y ago
    Even if Taylor allowed anyone to repair their machines - McDonald's is unlikely to allow franchisees that privilege anyway, for all of the reasons listed above. McDonald's is also large enough of a customer that we can assume the specifics of this machine were tailored or custom-made in part just for McDonald's. The automated cleaning and self-diagnosis system is exactly what someone like corporate McDonald's wants - take those liabilities out of the hands of individual franchisees and fallible employees. Make is as dead simple as it can be... machine says no-go, then it's a no-go. McDonald's will not allow a system where a franchisee or random-employee decides the machine is "clean enough" and proceeds to use it anyway, potentially getting people sick. So what will be accomplished here in this specific situation? Probably nothing...
RedShift1 3y ago
Taylor knows how to build proper ice cream machines. They only sell the constantly breaking down model to McDonalds.
- 0xy 3y ago
  Has it been established if McDonalds profits from the servicing of the machines? If so, the faulty nature could be known and encouraged by McDonalds.
  - Alupis 3y ago
    There's no reality where there's enough soft-serve machines in McDonald's locations for the profits from this scheme to outweigh the damage to McDonald's reputation and actual revenue from customers. Seriously it would be a drop in a very big bucket.
    - 1letterunixname 3y ago
      You didn't see the documentary on the McFlurry machine then... Here's a summary: https://www.wired.com/story/they-hacked-mcdonalds-ice-cream-makers-started-cold-war/ https://www.wired.com/story/they-hacked-mcdonalds-ice-cream-...
- 1letterunixname 3y ago
  The first part is true. The second part varies if the machines' maintenance will be covered by McDonald's corporate or by franchisees. McFlurry machines are a gambit to extract more maintenance fees from franchisees because McDonald's corporate doesn't care. McDonald's corporate isn't eating this "tax'.
- nebula8804 3y ago
  Are the other models just as complex as the Mcdonalds one? I can attest that the Wendys machine is much simpler in design than Mcdonalds. It only deals with one flavor, produces a product with only one consistency and has simpler instrumentation: it just has a simple indicator LED and on/off/clean toggle switch. The Mcdonalds machine is a "2 in 1" unit where it produces soft serve but also has a separate mechanism for mixing up milkshakes in 3-4 flavors. Also the Wendys machine requires complete disassembly and sanitation each night where as from what I can tell the Mcdonals machine does not.
sircastor 3y ago
I'm reminded of Cory Doctorow's referencing DMCA and the like as "felony contempt of business model". I'm sure it's been this way a lot longer than I imagine, but it feels to me like in the 80s or so companies became a lot more interested in making their shareholders happy than they were in making their customers happy.
- jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
  I think there's some truth to the idea that the "MBA-ization" of business management has been quite destructive.
- ChrisCinelli 3y ago
  Probably more in the 90s since the 80s were all about total quality management. But "companies became a lot more interested in making their shareholders happy than they were in making their customers happy" is the BIGGEST problem with modern capitalism. That is why US is approaching 70% obese population and other dramatic social problems.
- Tangurena2 3y ago
  His story Unauthorized Bread is a good one that explores just how bad it can get. Where the DRM in a toaster refuses to toast bread that isn't of the correct brand. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
1letterunixname 3y ago
There is a hot mic admission by Taylor representatives that the McFlurry machine was designed specifically to increase maintenance costs to extract more money from franchisees. Working McFlurry machine map: https://mcbroken.com https://mcbroken.com
- ChrisCinelli 3y ago
  Very curious! Source?

rightbyte 3y ago

When deals are bad enough, a always suspect bribery. Unless it is public procurements, then I blame too strict lowest bidder rules.

pessimizer 3y ago
No, in public procurement it's still bribery. You just carefully tailor the tender to the company that the fix is already in for. When I worked in state government, every vendor of products was simply a middleman who marked a bunch of stuff up that you could easily buy from standard wholesale sources. Their catalogs would be three-hole binders of photocopies from other people's catalogs and printouts from ecommerce webpages with the prices whited out, and a pricelist typed up in word at the back. Every vendor of services was connected to an insider who tipped them off that purchases were about to be made. The lowest bidder was selected from the people who could jump through the hoops required to submit bids, and who also fit the carefully written RFP.
Tangurena2 3y ago
In the case of Quiznos, it was kickbacks from the service company. Even when your soda machine was still under warranty, the franchise agreement required the store owner to use only one "authorized" company to repair the machines and pay them $75 per visit. https://www.westword.com/news/youre-toast-5092405?showFullText=true https://www.westword.com/news/youre-toast-5092405?showFullTe... Westword is Denver's alternative weekly newspaper. Quiznos started in Denver.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

neilv 3y ago

Careful with your stones in glass houses, on HN, of all places. We're the community in which virtually every Web site we deploy sells out privacy of its users to third parties. And that's before we get into the commonplace UX behavior against users' interests, numerous startups which are essentially investment scams, some of our most celebrated startup successes only existing because an app is a smokescreen that lets them violate regulations long enough, and general background underhandedness and entitlement so pervasive that we now consider it normal.

nwsm 3y ago
Speak for yourself. I would never leak or sell user data. I just develop B2B software that provides no value
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  All B2B software has value. It's just that often the value is "I bought this and even though it provides no value, it's pretty enough that it impressed my boss and I got a raise and promotion"
wizzwizz4 3y ago
> We're the community in which virtually every Web site we deploy sells out privacy of its users to third parties. Simply don't do that, then. It's not hard. (And… why even increase your liability and reduce your hiring pool by being relentlessly unethical? The trade-off isn't worth it, even if you're a stereotypical heartless executive.)
- lostlogin 3y ago
  > The trade-off isn't worth it I entirely agree with your sentiment but financially, Adtech has done quite well for itself.
  - wizzwizz4 3y ago
    For itself.

lamontcg 3y ago

> I have to ask the engineers that work at these companies [...] Yeah, global warming is also entirely my fault because I just don't recycle hard enough.

Alupis 3y ago

What happens if the replacement parts aren't actually as good, safe or reliable as the originals? McDonald's gets bad PR, or a lawsuit depending on the severity. Look, I'm all for better repair options and Right to Repair, but McDonald's is selling consistency and their reputation is on the line (not the franchisee) when something goes wrong or people get sick. For those reasons alone, it's not unreasonable to force franchisees to use a specific brand of machines, contract a specific company for repairs, and use specific OEM parts. CYA big time in so many ways. What people are forgetting here is McDonald's has an interest in these machines working as well as possible (revenue + reputation), and the franchisee also has an interest in these machines working as well as possible (revenue). The franchisee however, does not necessarily care about the McDonald's brand and reputation, and given the option might choose degraded parts/safety to save money - causing a problem for McDonalds. So... McDonald's says you have to use these approved machines and get service/parts from this approved vendor. Case closed... The only people who seem to really care about this issue are customers. That won't be enough to force a private company to open the door to any yahoo repair company with Wish.com replacement parts.

PartiallyTyped 3y ago
> What happens if the replacement parts aren't actually as good, safe or reliable as the originals? I don't see how that line of thinking is any different to the argument manufacturers are making regarding right to repair. The response is simple, all parts must be G.A. and manufacturers can't force the company they are sourcing their parts from to not sell to third parties. McDonalds can very well sue the franchise for not following the guidelines and ordering bad parts.
- Alupis 3y ago
  Even if Taylor allowed anyone to repair their machines - McDonald's is unlikely to allow franchisees that privilege anyway, for all of the reasons listed above. McDonald's is also large enough of a customer that we can assume the specifics of this machine were tailored or custom-made in part just for McDonald's. The automated cleaning and self-diagnosis system is exactly what someone like corporate McDonald's wants - take those liabilities out of the hands of individual franchisees and fallible employees. Make is as dead simple as it can be... machine says no-go, then it's a no-go. McDonald's will not allow a system where a franchisee or random-employee decides the machine is "clean enough" and proceeds to use it anyway, potentially getting people sick. So what will be accomplished here in this specific situation? Probably nothing...

RedShift1 3y ago

Taylor knows how to build proper ice cream machines. They only sell the constantly breaking down model to McDonalds.

0xy 3y ago
Has it been established if McDonalds profits from the servicing of the machines? If so, the faulty nature could be known and encouraged by McDonalds.
- Alupis 3y ago
  There's no reality where there's enough soft-serve machines in McDonald's locations for the profits from this scheme to outweigh the damage to McDonald's reputation and actual revenue from customers. Seriously it would be a drop in a very big bucket.
  - 1letterunixname 3y ago
    You didn't see the documentary on the McFlurry machine then... Here's a summary: https://www.wired.com/story/they-hacked-mcdonalds-ice-cream-makers-started-cold-war/ https://www.wired.com/story/they-hacked-mcdonalds-ice-cream-...
1letterunixname 3y ago
The first part is true. The second part varies if the machines' maintenance will be covered by McDonald's corporate or by franchisees. McFlurry machines are a gambit to extract more maintenance fees from franchisees because McDonald's corporate doesn't care. McDonald's corporate isn't eating this "tax'.
nebula8804 3y ago
Are the other models just as complex as the Mcdonalds one? I can attest that the Wendys machine is much simpler in design than Mcdonalds. It only deals with one flavor, produces a product with only one consistency and has simpler instrumentation: it just has a simple indicator LED and on/off/clean toggle switch. The Mcdonalds machine is a "2 in 1" unit where it produces soft serve but also has a separate mechanism for mixing up milkshakes in 3-4 flavors. Also the Wendys machine requires complete disassembly and sanitation each night where as from what I can tell the Mcdonals machine does not.

sircastor 3y ago

I'm reminded of Cory Doctorow's referencing DMCA and the like as "felony contempt of business model". I'm sure it's been this way a lot longer than I imagine, but it feels to me like in the 80s or so companies became a lot more interested in making their shareholders happy than they were in making their customers happy.

jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
I think there's some truth to the idea that the "MBA-ization" of business management has been quite destructive.
ChrisCinelli 3y ago
Probably more in the 90s since the 80s were all about total quality management. But "companies became a lot more interested in making their shareholders happy than they were in making their customers happy" is the BIGGEST problem with modern capitalism. That is why US is approaching 70% obese population and other dramatic social problems.
Tangurena2 3y ago
His story Unauthorized Bread is a good one that explores just how bad it can get. Where the DRM in a toaster refuses to toast bread that isn't of the correct brand. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...

1letterunixname 3y ago

There is a hot mic admission by Taylor representatives that the McFlurry machine was designed specifically to increase maintenance costs to extract more money from franchisees. Working McFlurry machine map: https://mcbroken.com https://mcbroken.com

ChrisCinelli 3y ago
Very curious! Source?