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400V three phase is wired to all houses at least here in Finland. All 3 phases are wired to the electric box and then that splits phases to normal sockets and f

400V three phase is wired to all houses at least here in Finland. All 3 phases are wired to the electric box and then that splits phases to normal sockets and for lighting etc. Ovens use three phases and detached houses usually have separate 3-phase plugs outside for running eg. heavy construction tools, like cement mixer and such. Oh right and sauna stove also needs all 3 phases obviously. Even apartments have that full 3-phases, but just for plugging in the oven and the sauna stove.

chris_va 3y ago
There really isn't a huge advantage for 3 phase unless you are doing high-power DC rectification or trying to run a motor. The US grid is basically 3-phase everywhere, but it's neither needed nor cost-effective to run it into the home. Now, the 400V part is different. That would require less copper (but with a safety cost).
- pangolinja 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - chris_va 3y ago
    ... the infrastructure is high voltage 3-phase, same as EU. Also, stone tools are easier to replace :P
  - mulmen 3y ago
    Inventor syndrome. Same thing with our cell phone networks and space ships. When you invent something you end up with the most “archaic” version, by definition. But it seems to still be working. American pragmatism says there’s better places to allocate resources.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - deaddodo 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - pavlov 3y ago
      The Nazi genocide in the East was explicitly modeled on the treatment of Native Americans in the 19th century. So, like voltage, it’s another case where Americans invented something and Europeans doubled down.
      - catchnear4321 3y ago
        yes, but who invented the americans
        hot_gril 3y ago
        Interesting thing I learned, horses actually originated in the Americas. Some of them migrated to Asia, then the ones in the Americas died out before human civilization, so only the Old World civs had them. When Europeans brought horses to the Americas, they were bringing them back.
      - deaddodo 3y ago
        Yes, Americans invented populace relocation (and the abuses that come with it). Nice to know the Roman Empire had a time machine to pull a major component of their imperial edict from. But let's pretend your warped view of history is reality...that happened 100 years earlier. If Europeans are so enlightened atop those tall horses, maybe don't do it again and 10x worse? In addition, I wasn't referring to the Holocaust...but the entire continent's shared sick desire to kill themselves off for 10km of border movement or literal dreams of world conquest.
      - hot_gril 3y ago
        This wouldn't surprise me, but I can't find it. I'm seeing some authors drawing comparisons, but haven't found Hitler or his party actually mentioning Native Americans. There are explicit references to Turkey, with Hitler mentioning the Armenian Genocide (as justification for invading Poland) and calling Ataturk a "shining star," along with the Nazi papers obsessing over his nationalist policies.
  - robswc 3y ago
    No idea if you're from the US but this "weak infrastructure" has/is hosted/hosting nearly every important infrastructure that makes the online world go round and has been doing perfectly fine for decades. What are you doing that you need 400v?
    - hot_gril 3y ago
      > What are you doing that you need 400v? Complaining about Americans on the internet, obviously.
      - FLT8 3y ago
        I am in Australia and am in the process of having our home supply wired for three-phase 415v. Everything is heading down the path of electrification. Where previously we had gas central heating, cooking, and hot water, we are replacing those with electric HVAC (30amp circuit @ 240v, admittedly rarely driven that hard), electric instantaneous hot water (40 amp @ 240v), induction cooktop (32 amp), oven (15 amp), and also introducing a car charger (total approx 45 amps across the three phases).. it's likely at least the HVAC, cooktop/oven, car charger, and hot water could be on at or around the same time, which would result in more power draw than a standard single phase connection here (80a) could supply. It's not that it's needed all the time, but it's helpful to have the headroom a 3-phase supply can provide.
- kukkamario 3y ago
  Currently probably biggest advantage is electric car charging. It is easy and cheap to add high power fast charger when there is already 3 phases available. 400V between phases so 230V per phase. Safety is provided by making plugs not expose contacts while half plugged. US plugs are really unsafe compared to plugs used in most of the Europe.
  - timc3 3y ago
    And safety provided by having much stricter control and requirements on the whole house electrical system.
  - Maxion 3y ago
    Also power tools, with 400v plugs you can go to much higher wattages on circular saws, planers etc.
hinkley 3y ago
The last transformer between houses and the grid is 440v three phase. As I understand it the distribution networks all look pretty much the same, it’s only the last mile that differs. And thus consumer electronics. If you want to run a machine shop, it’s a pain but not impossible to get 440 three phase wired straight through to your business. But consumer “heavy” motors and induction stoves run on two phase 230V.
saiya-jin 3y ago
Its everywhere in Europe. I haven't seen nor heard about say a single oven not plugged into 400V. I've lived in 4 different countries in east & west, all the same. Even when traveling around a bit, I see those special plugs in convenient places, where you may expect to plug something powerful for some heavier work. Anything high power, you go for this plug. I'd imagine car charging would also benefit from this but not personally in that market yet.
- pmontra 3y ago
  This HN thread is the first time I learned about 400 V to homes in Europe. My oven is 220 V. I just checked the manual. All my house is 220 V. I live in Italy. Plugs are usually Shuko for high power appliances (washing machine) and two smaller pins for low power (phone chargers.) By the way, Italy traditionally had a three pin in a line high power plug but more and more appliances are coming with Shuko plugs so wall socket are either bi-standard or just Shuko now.
  - jaywee 3y ago
    The 400V is between phases. 230V is between a phase and ground. Ie, you get 3 wires (phases) of 230V from the 400V connection. Btw, Europe standardized at 230/400V in the nineties. In Czechia we switched from 220V to 230V in 1993. Not sure when Italy did, but probably around the same time.
    - chipsa 3y ago
      "Standardized". The allowable voltage for power is normally something like 6%. When they switched from the mis-mash of 220 and 240V to 230V, they specified the allowable voltage range was wide enough to encompass both of those, including the allowable voltage range for 240V. So largely it was just "Everything is 230V now, and try to make sure new stuff is actually 230V".
      - tomatocracy 3y ago
        Yes. “Standardising” to 230V +/-10%, allows for 220/230/240V +/-6% (the previous standards used in different countries) to all coexist without actually changing any equipment.
kelnos 3y ago
> detached houses usually have separate 3-phase plugs outside for running eg. heavy construction tools, like cement mixer and such. Is this sort of use common in Finland? It seems like kinda a waste of money and materials to install the infrastructure to allow everyone to run heavy construction equipment off their home's electrical supply.
- malermeister 3y ago
  I can't talk about Finland, but in Central Europe it's pretty common as there is a culture of house building. In the US, a developer typically buys an entire neighborhood's worth of land and builds a bunch of houses there to sell to individuals. Over here, the individuals will typically buy their own small plot of land and then have a house built there according to their specifications. You need to be able to run heavy construction equipment to do so.
- djhn 3y ago
  How esle is the home going to get renovation work and upkeep done?
- Gravityloss 3y ago
  Since you need three phase 380V for the sauna and the kitchen anyway, and probably for the ground or air heat pump too... it doesn't cost almost anything to run a cable from the electrical box and installing a three phase socket. This shows a 32A 400V socket costs under 10 euros: https://www.taloon.com/voimapistorasia-pinta-bals-101-3pne-32a-400v-ip44 https://www.taloon.com/voimapistorasia-pinta-bals-101-3pne-3...
- Ekaros 3y ago
  It is more efficient. Going from 4 wires to 5 is not a big deal if you then can have triple power. Or you can use thinner wires thus less material overall. The split phase is two lives, neutral and ground. 3-phase is 3 lives, neutral and ground.

chris_va 3y ago

There really isn't a huge advantage for 3 phase unless you are doing high-power DC rectification or trying to run a motor. The US grid is basically 3-phase everywhere, but it's neither needed nor cost-effective to run it into the home. Now, the 400V part is different. That would require less copper (but with a safety cost).

pangolinja 3y ago
[flagged]
- chris_va 3y ago
  ... the infrastructure is high voltage 3-phase, same as EU. Also, stone tools are easier to replace :P
- mulmen 3y ago
  Inventor syndrome. Same thing with our cell phone networks and space ships. When you invent something you end up with the most “archaic” version, by definition. But it seems to still be working. American pragmatism says there’s better places to allocate resources.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- deaddodo 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - pavlov 3y ago
    The Nazi genocide in the East was explicitly modeled on the treatment of Native Americans in the 19th century. So, like voltage, it’s another case where Americans invented something and Europeans doubled down.
    - catchnear4321 3y ago
      yes, but who invented the americans
      - hot_gril 3y ago
        Interesting thing I learned, horses actually originated in the Americas. Some of them migrated to Asia, then the ones in the Americas died out before human civilization, so only the Old World civs had them. When Europeans brought horses to the Americas, they were bringing them back.
    - deaddodo 3y ago
      Yes, Americans invented populace relocation (and the abuses that come with it). Nice to know the Roman Empire had a time machine to pull a major component of their imperial edict from. But let's pretend your warped view of history is reality...that happened 100 years earlier. If Europeans are so enlightened atop those tall horses, maybe don't do it again and 10x worse? In addition, I wasn't referring to the Holocaust...but the entire continent's shared sick desire to kill themselves off for 10km of border movement or literal dreams of world conquest.
    - hot_gril 3y ago
      This wouldn't surprise me, but I can't find it. I'm seeing some authors drawing comparisons, but haven't found Hitler or his party actually mentioning Native Americans. There are explicit references to Turkey, with Hitler mentioning the Armenian Genocide (as justification for invading Poland) and calling Ataturk a "shining star," along with the Nazi papers obsessing over his nationalist policies.
- robswc 3y ago
  No idea if you're from the US but this "weak infrastructure" has/is hosted/hosting nearly every important infrastructure that makes the online world go round and has been doing perfectly fine for decades. What are you doing that you need 400v?
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    > What are you doing that you need 400v? Complaining about Americans on the internet, obviously.
    - FLT8 3y ago
      I am in Australia and am in the process of having our home supply wired for three-phase 415v. Everything is heading down the path of electrification. Where previously we had gas central heating, cooking, and hot water, we are replacing those with electric HVAC (30amp circuit @ 240v, admittedly rarely driven that hard), electric instantaneous hot water (40 amp @ 240v), induction cooktop (32 amp), oven (15 amp), and also introducing a car charger (total approx 45 amps across the three phases).. it's likely at least the HVAC, cooktop/oven, car charger, and hot water could be on at or around the same time, which would result in more power draw than a standard single phase connection here (80a) could supply. It's not that it's needed all the time, but it's helpful to have the headroom a 3-phase supply can provide.
kukkamario 3y ago
Currently probably biggest advantage is electric car charging. It is easy and cheap to add high power fast charger when there is already 3 phases available. 400V between phases so 230V per phase. Safety is provided by making plugs not expose contacts while half plugged. US plugs are really unsafe compared to plugs used in most of the Europe.
- timc3 3y ago
  And safety provided by having much stricter control and requirements on the whole house electrical system.
- Maxion 3y ago
  Also power tools, with 400v plugs you can go to much higher wattages on circular saws, planers etc.

hinkley 3y ago

The last transformer between houses and the grid is 440v three phase. As I understand it the distribution networks all look pretty much the same, it’s only the last mile that differs. And thus consumer electronics. If you want to run a machine shop, it’s a pain but not impossible to get 440 three phase wired straight through to your business. But consumer “heavy” motors and induction stoves run on two phase 230V.

saiya-jin 3y ago

Its everywhere in Europe. I haven't seen nor heard about say a single oven not plugged into 400V. I've lived in 4 different countries in east & west, all the same. Even when traveling around a bit, I see those special plugs in convenient places, where you may expect to plug something powerful for some heavier work. Anything high power, you go for this plug. I'd imagine car charging would also benefit from this but not personally in that market yet.

pmontra 3y ago
This HN thread is the first time I learned about 400 V to homes in Europe. My oven is 220 V. I just checked the manual. All my house is 220 V. I live in Italy. Plugs are usually Shuko for high power appliances (washing machine) and two smaller pins for low power (phone chargers.) By the way, Italy traditionally had a three pin in a line high power plug but more and more appliances are coming with Shuko plugs so wall socket are either bi-standard or just Shuko now.
- jaywee 3y ago
  The 400V is between phases. 230V is between a phase and ground. Ie, you get 3 wires (phases) of 230V from the 400V connection. Btw, Europe standardized at 230/400V in the nineties. In Czechia we switched from 220V to 230V in 1993. Not sure when Italy did, but probably around the same time.
  - chipsa 3y ago
    "Standardized". The allowable voltage for power is normally something like 6%. When they switched from the mis-mash of 220 and 240V to 230V, they specified the allowable voltage range was wide enough to encompass both of those, including the allowable voltage range for 240V. So largely it was just "Everything is 230V now, and try to make sure new stuff is actually 230V".
    - tomatocracy 3y ago
      Yes. “Standardising” to 230V +/-10%, allows for 220/230/240V +/-6% (the previous standards used in different countries) to all coexist without actually changing any equipment.

kelnos 3y ago

> detached houses usually have separate 3-phase plugs outside for running eg. heavy construction tools, like cement mixer and such. Is this sort of use common in Finland? It seems like kinda a waste of money and materials to install the infrastructure to allow everyone to run heavy construction equipment off their home's electrical supply.

malermeister 3y ago
I can't talk about Finland, but in Central Europe it's pretty common as there is a culture of house building. In the US, a developer typically buys an entire neighborhood's worth of land and builds a bunch of houses there to sell to individuals. Over here, the individuals will typically buy their own small plot of land and then have a house built there according to their specifications. You need to be able to run heavy construction equipment to do so.
djhn 3y ago
How esle is the home going to get renovation work and upkeep done?
Gravityloss 3y ago
Since you need three phase 380V for the sauna and the kitchen anyway, and probably for the ground or air heat pump too... it doesn't cost almost anything to run a cable from the electrical box and installing a three phase socket. This shows a 32A 400V socket costs under 10 euros: https://www.taloon.com/voimapistorasia-pinta-bals-101-3pne-32a-400v-ip44 https://www.taloon.com/voimapistorasia-pinta-bals-101-3pne-3...
Ekaros 3y ago
It is more efficient. Going from 4 wires to 5 is not a big deal if you then can have triple power. Or you can use thinner wires thus less material overall. The split phase is two lives, neutral and ground. 3-phase is 3 lives, neutral and ground.