10 ms·

FDA schedules meeting to establish regulatory rules for artificial womb trials

57 points by apsec112 3y ago

stevenwoo 3y ago
It’s only for use as alternative to standard treatment on extremely premature patients in neonatal intensive care units, not something out of Vorkosigan saga or Dune if you only read the first few books.
- slashdev 3y ago
  Sure, that’s the MVP. But we all know where it’s going. I’m not saying that’s a good or bad thing, just pointing out the technology won’t stop there.
  - remarkEon 3y ago
    Yeah, I’m willing to say it’s very bad. It’s the first step toward commoditizing human life, in a way that isn’t dependent on some Marxist analysis of capitalism. Maybe some think that’s fine, and that having designer children is “good”.
    - Minor49er 3y ago
      I agree, though we're past the first step. Massachusetts has been trying this through The Bone Marrow and Organ Donation Program which would see prisoners trade jail time for body organs [1]. Probably inspired by China's forced organ harvesting [2]. Not to mention that commoditizing human life has been happening through things like human trafficking [3], or surrogacy which exploits poor women [4] [1] https://malegislature.gov/Bills/193/HD3822 https://malegislature.gov/Bills/193/HD3822 [2] https://brighterworld.mcmaster.ca/articles/analysis-killing-prisoners-for-transplants-forced-organ-harvesting-in-china/ https://brighterworld.mcmaster.ca/articles/analysis-killing-... [3] https://www.dhs.gov/blue-campaign/infographic https://www.dhs.gov/blue-campaign/infographic [4] https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2017/mar/28/cross-border-surrogacy-exploiting-low-income-women-as-biological-resources https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2017/mar/28/cross-b... I'm glad that the people in power have everyone's best interests at heart /s
      - slashdev 3y ago
        I think I’d support items 1 and 4. 1. Prisoners owe a debt to society, that’s certainly one way to repay it, provided it’s voluntary. Same reason I’d support voluntary prison labor. 4. You could argue being a sex worker is far more exploitive of women. I think it’s not our place to say they can’t do that, as long as it’s voluntary.
        Minor49er 3y ago
        I hope you realize that what you are advocating for in both of those cases leads to the exploitation of the poorest classes. You may want to read the article I cited for Point 4 to see why this is a really bad idea (and also the DHS infographic I posted). Not only are you advocating for the commoditization of human life, you are asking for the creation of an organ harvesting industry. Does this not violate any ethical standards you have?
    - jncfhnb 3y ago
      Designer children is good if the design is “free of oppressive afflictions”. Frankly it seems unethical to do otherwise if it’s an option.
      - swader999 3y ago
        Good luck with agreeing on oppressive afflictions. Some would argue that some affliction is even desirable.
        Supermancho 3y ago
        There is not going to be debate over every single aspect of human suffering. eg Progeria and parietal bone defects
        jncfhnb 3y ago
        Don’t see how that matters
        Avicebron 3y ago
        I mean, I can see it going pretty south if some people decide that a certain skin color qualifies as an "oppressive affliction"
        jncfhnb 3y ago
        Ok, but so what? We can agree that some people will be upset if some things are genetically curated. Is that an argument for a blanket ban against genetic curation? Because I think it’s weak as hell.
        Avicebron 3y ago
        Well if we swap "genetic curation" with "eugenics" I think you'd be hard pressed to stand up in front of a group and argue that in 2023.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      I am willing to say releasing women from the burden and risks of pregnancy is good.
      - hackinthebochs 3y ago
        Why don't we just build the experience machine if features of our nature are burdens to be discarded at the earliest opportunity? It is not obvious that a life devoid of any hardship should be the ultimate goal of technology. Some of you are way too quick to discard core aspects of humanity out of some bastardized concept of the good.
        lotsofpulp 3y ago
        Not sure if I should respond, but are we really debating if preventing someone from experiencing the risks and pain involved in pregnancy and childbirth is a bastardized concept of “good”? Should we remove the option for women to receive epidurals, lest they get to miss out on a “core” aspect of humanity? What other kinds of pain and risk do you think people should be subject to? FYI, evolution does not care about the wellbeing of the individual, nor is there any inherent reason the mechanism that evolution comes up with should be held up as the ideal.
        remarkEon 3y ago
        Childbirth is not just some miserable medical procedure. The entire event is a pair bonding activity for the parents and child. Deleting that because it makes you uncomfortable is unwise.
        spondylosaurus 3y ago
        I'm gonna guess that you're not someone who can personally get pregnant, or else you might be signing a different tune on this one, lol. Childbirth is remarkably dangerous, even under current medical standards. Even a successful natural birth tends to bring a whole host of complications afterwards, and it's not unreasonable to want to avoid that. Let me be uncharitable here: do you really think a mom would love her baby any less just because she rip open her entire perineum in the process of pushing that baby out? (If so, I guess I have bad news for C-section babies...)
    - Supermancho 3y ago
      > It’s the first step toward commoditizing human life, It's also the first step toward other things...like solar exploration and maybe extra-solar exploration.
      - remarkEon 3y ago
        Please elaborate on the connection between AWT and FTL technology. I missed that node in the tech tree.
        Supermancho 3y ago
        > Please elaborate on the connection between AWT and FTL technology. I don't know why you need to make things up, then try to argue about it. Seems like a waste of time.
        remarkEon 3y ago
        You're the one that's imagining that AWT leads to leaving the solar system.
        Supermancho 3y ago
        > You're the one that's imagining that AWT leads to leaving the solar system. That's not what I said. Technology is not a singular set of advancements to the next. As usual, nothing but bad faith responses. Good luck with whatever.
        slashdev 3y ago
        See the concept of generational starships.
    - kevinventullo 3y ago
      It’s way past the first step. Contemplate the terminology “Human Resources”.
    - brnt 3y ago
      Human reproduction is at or over the limits of what is possible: our heads really don't fit through our pelvii anymore. The trajectory of our species and our genus has been going in the direction of brain enlargement, so it would seem only natural we use that brain to enable evolution of the brain by changing our strenuous births. Remember, there's a ton of science and experience involved in keeping mothers alive already. It is only natural to make the next step. Designing kids and/or producing (for capitalistic purposes) them seems orthogonal to artificial wombs to me: that requires other things besides merely a couple who ask a hospital to fertilize their egg with their sperm and place it in a device.
      - pfannkuchen 3y ago
        > It is only natural to make the next step. One concern is that standardized use of this would seriously risk making humans go extinct in the future. If we completely remove the selection constraint that humans are able to reproduce, over time functionality bugs will creep into that area. If, at any point in the future, society collapses to the point where we are no longer able to build these machines, we may no longer be able to reproduce and will simply die off. Maintaining this constraint on humans seems prudent. If and when we can manipulate genetics well enough to fix the issue in the actual human organism in a way that is not fragile, then that would be fine.
      - remarkEon 3y ago
        >...our heads really don't fit through our pelvii anymore. The trajectory of our species and our genus has been going in the direction of brain enlargement ... I'm interested in reading more about this trend. But whatever the data, it does not sound "natural" to take that phenomenon and apply a mechanical solution to the problem. Taken to its logical conclusion, human reproduction becomes dependent on the availability of these mechanical interventions. That sounds like a really bad idea, at least to me. >Designing kids and/or producing (for capitalistic purposes) them seems orthogonal to artificial wombs to me: that requires other things besides merely a couple who ask a hospital to fertilize their egg with their sperm and place it in a device. It may sound that way, but needing a woman to gestate the new human is a barrier to this activity. Celebrities and the uber-wealthy, in some cases, already essentially rent the reproductive systems of ostensibly willing women for this purpose. Having an artificial means do to this would remove that barrier and significantly expand the market, so one proceeds from the other.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - WorldMaker 3y ago
      Artificial surrogacy and "designer children" are two different, somewhat orthogonal concerns. Most IVF today involves no genetics modification. It's always been a slippery slope argument that surrogacy "inevitably" leads to genetically designing children. Artificial wombs would certainly change the economics of surrogacy, but it's also a bit of a slippery slope to think it would commoditize it. It doesn't change most of what we know about IVF and likely keeps the same (relatively high) costs, it maybe just disrupts the labor market for surrogacy. (Which today from what I hear is an extremely expensive market prone to shortages.)
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- seydor 3y ago
  It will get there
spondylosaurus 3y ago
Sounds like any widespread use is still a ways out if we're in the "setting rules for trials" phase now, but I'm curious what impact artificial wombs would have on abortion laws in the US, if any. The non-religious aspects of the abortion debate partly hinge on this idea of fetal viability (specifically, the time at which most fetuses have a high chance of survival outside the womb), and I could imagine artificial wombs bringing that viability threshold down a bit. Which then opens the door to a whole other debate about whether terminating a pregnancy could (or should) involve transplantation. I know some current bioethics argue that abortion is currently permissible because the death of the fetus is merely a side effect of terminating a pregnancy, rather than its goal...
- alaaalawi 3y ago
  its really leads to all sorts of question. when markets for eggs and sperms to be sold directly to interested (the layman) are there and the buyer funds the rent of the artificial womb and the food/nutrition + bio conditions. will he be the father or the owner? if more over the buyer have a farm (so to speak) of wombs?
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Perhaps whatever policies exist around surrogate pregnancies now would apply there also.
  - bhouston 3y ago
    This already exists just with surrogacy as there are both egg and sperm banks available to those who need them. A lot of Hollywood stars these days are using surrogacy, it is quite common: https://people.com/parents/celebrities-who-have-used-surrogates/ https://people.com/parents/celebrities-who-have-used-surroga...
    - Melting_Harps 3y ago
      > This already exists just with surrogacy as there are both egg and sperm banks available to those who need them. True, and if you saw what played out during COVID you'll realize there is a massive market for this: during COVID healthy, viable sperm supply outstripped supply significnatly, and the market dynamics went into effect. Some so brazen as to advertise on FB to do so [0]. Surrogacy continued to thrive during COVID and was only hampered because of the Russian invasion, it is hoime to perhaps one of the biggest fertility/surrogacy countries on Earth. Lots of children were born during the war and have not been reunited with their families yet, either. It's one of the many stark and bleaker parts of the War and ultimately about the Human Condition that make me think that while we are likely inching closer towards a Brave New World situation, with all the dire implications that go along with it, that when it comes to fertility this might be the best of all bad solutions. Personally, I have chosen to delay having children for what will likely be another decade, after not following in my parent's or siblings footsteps of having children in their 20s. Its a conscious decision but ultimately a forced one: namely political strife, environmental factors and climate change are at the forefront but there are more. And seeing fertility rates absolutely crater in the 21st century in anything but the most economically dire of places (namely Africa and India) I think having the framework ahead of the device might be wise as we will have to eventually kick-start a new baby-boom in order just to reach a semi-parity as millennials like myself enter as the larger cohort with similair delays in childbirth--I''m an outlier in having children, most of my friends over 30 just don't even want children if they haven't already had them. 0: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/08/business/sperm-donors-facebook-groups.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/08/business/sperm-donors-fac... 1: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/12/world/europe/ukraine-surrogate-mothers-babies.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/12/world/europe/ukraine-surr...
bhouston 3y ago
You just know that once these work, some narcissistic billionaire is going to create a whole ton of offspring using this.[1] [1] https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/how-jeffrey-epstein-planned-to-impregnate-20-women-at-a-time-1.3978469 https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/how-jeffrey...
- wmf 3y ago
  What if surrogacy is cheaper and more reliable than sci-fi. (This also applies to human cloning.)
  - bhouston 3y ago
    Surrogacy for now is cheaper. Generally the trend with automation across many industries is that it becomes cheaper in the long run with more predictable/controlled results. At some point in the future, it will probably seem quaint and sort of primitive to grow humans inside of other humans - as well as rely upon random sperm and ovum selection. Why live with the inconvenience and increased risk when there are safer and easier ways to do it with more predictable results.
    - ausbah 3y ago
      funnily enough there’s a new upcoming movie that tackles just that, how wanting a natural birth is “backwards” https://m.imdb.com/title/tt15768848/#:~:text=The%20Pod%20Generation%20(2023)%20is,create%20an%20unforgettable%20cinematic%20experience https://m.imdb.com/title/tt15768848/#:~:text=The%20Pod%20Gen....
      - bhouston 3y ago
        Neat. In fairness, Brave New World also did it back in 1931: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World. None of this is new ideas just that technology is catching up to science fiction.
smartplaya2001 3y ago
Sounds like the beginning of the matrix
xwdv 3y ago
It would be neat if we could find a way to gestate a child in artificial wombs a bit longer, maybe from 9 months to 18 months to have a more developed baby at birth and skip some of the more annoying early months. Then parental leave could really feel more like a vacation to spend time with your child doing meaningful stuff, instead of getting no sleep taking care of an eating and shitting, noise making creature.
- boppo1 3y ago
  > Then parental leave could really feel more like a vacation to spend time with your child doing meaningful stuff, instead of getting no sleep taking care of an eating and shitting, noise making creature. Then they'd just drop parental leave.
  - yazaddaruvala 3y ago
    "Baby bonding leave" should still apply just the same to a child born at 18 months.
- pc86 3y ago
  Oh man relevant bio is relevant, holy shit. Or this is a borderline brilliant troll account.
- therealdkz 3y ago
  it would be also neat to have the right to abort up to 18 years and have replacement pipeline ready just in case one does not work out.
- crooked-v 3y ago
  The comment is a dismissive way to put it, but I find it a conceptually interesting idea, considering that, because of the limitations of our hips, human babies are arguably premature births compared to most other mammals.
- seydor 3y ago
  How about 15 years or so? they could listen to school lectures in the meanwhile
lifeisstillgood 3y ago
Dolly the sheep was the first clone (who survived). But her life was significantly shorter than a natural sheep, and I understand end of life diseases but hard. In other words there is good argument to be made that Dolly's creation / birth was unethical. Now multiply that about a thousand fold for this awful idea. We have no idea what the complex interplay between womb and foetus is, hormone and other signalling between mother and baby. I know this is a tiny step, but really. Don't any of these people watch movies ? You know how bad this will get ...
- seydor 3y ago
  If movies are our guide, we should all shoot ourselves right now
  - gremlinsinc 3y ago
    if movies are our guide we don't need to, Terminators will do that for us at worst or use us as an energy source like the matrix at Best.
  - lifeisstillgood 3y ago
    Humans are story-telling apes. Human culture is transmitted via stories and movies are a vastly powerful widespread story telling mechanism. Yes, movies are our guide. They are probably the most powerful of means to how we find the common set of rules and norms - the "culture war" is not some silly side argument, it is people looking for battle lines in defining the cultural norms of the 21C. Hollywood and Bollywood and xxxwood will play enormous parts in that. And we vote with our entry tickets
WorldMaker 3y ago
An interesting scifi setting that explores some of the morals/ethics/religious impacts of artificial wombs is the Vorkosigan saga. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Racing0461 3y ago
tbh its for the best, abortion/birth control/sperm banks already made "a man" useless (not men, just any individual man). It would just have the same effect on women and then we can move forward with the complete commoditization of m/f intersexual dynamics.
- joker_minmax 3y ago
  What is the benefit of "complete commoditization of m/f intersexual dynamics"?
  - Racing0461 3y ago
    We no longer have to do the whole song and dance. If your a guy/girl and you want a kid, men can do this womb thing if it works out and women can do the whole sperm bank/ots.
joker_minmax 3y ago
Until we fully understand all of the processes in morphogenesis and hormone changes in prenatal development (hint: we don't), I see this pursuit as reckless at best. Furthermore why are we pursuing this in people when the "artificial womb" that happened with sheep was shaky?
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  The process of setting out regulatory rules including ones on what the criteria are that need to be met for human testing to be allowed? Seems to me that you've actually pointed to the reasons that, given that the technology is being pursued by industry, rulemaking is necessary, not premature.
  - joker_minmax 3y ago
    Of course. I'm just seeing that this is a sign of where we are headed.

57 points by apsec112 3y ago

It’s only for use as alternative to standard treatment on extremely premature patients in neonatal intensive care units, not something out of Vorkosigan saga or Dune if you only read the first few books.

slashdev 3y ago
Sure, that’s the MVP. But we all know where it’s going. I’m not saying that’s a good or bad thing, just pointing out the technology won’t stop there.
- remarkEon 3y ago
  Yeah, I’m willing to say it’s very bad. It’s the first step toward commoditizing human life, in a way that isn’t dependent on some Marxist analysis of capitalism. Maybe some think that’s fine, and that having designer children is “good”.
  - Minor49er 3y ago
    I agree, though we're past the first step. Massachusetts has been trying this through The Bone Marrow and Organ Donation Program which would see prisoners trade jail time for body organs [1]. Probably inspired by China's forced organ harvesting [2]. Not to mention that commoditizing human life has been happening through things like human trafficking [3], or surrogacy which exploits poor women [4] [1] https://malegislature.gov/Bills/193/HD3822 https://malegislature.gov/Bills/193/HD3822 [2] https://brighterworld.mcmaster.ca/articles/analysis-killing-prisoners-for-transplants-forced-organ-harvesting-in-china/ https://brighterworld.mcmaster.ca/articles/analysis-killing-... [3] https://www.dhs.gov/blue-campaign/infographic https://www.dhs.gov/blue-campaign/infographic [4] https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2017/mar/28/cross-border-surrogacy-exploiting-low-income-women-as-biological-resources https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2017/mar/28/cross-b... I'm glad that the people in power have everyone's best interests at heart /s
    - slashdev 3y ago
      I think I’d support items 1 and 4. 1. Prisoners owe a debt to society, that’s certainly one way to repay it, provided it’s voluntary. Same reason I’d support voluntary prison labor. 4. You could argue being a sex worker is far more exploitive of women. I think it’s not our place to say they can’t do that, as long as it’s voluntary.
      - Minor49er 3y ago
        I hope you realize that what you are advocating for in both of those cases leads to the exploitation of the poorest classes. You may want to read the article I cited for Point 4 to see why this is a really bad idea (and also the DHS infographic I posted). Not only are you advocating for the commoditization of human life, you are asking for the creation of an organ harvesting industry. Does this not violate any ethical standards you have?
  - jncfhnb 3y ago
    Designer children is good if the design is “free of oppressive afflictions”. Frankly it seems unethical to do otherwise if it’s an option.
    - swader999 3y ago
      Good luck with agreeing on oppressive afflictions. Some would argue that some affliction is even desirable.
      - Supermancho 3y ago
        There is not going to be debate over every single aspect of human suffering. eg Progeria and parietal bone defects
      - jncfhnb 3y ago
        Don’t see how that matters
        Avicebron 3y ago
        I mean, I can see it going pretty south if some people decide that a certain skin color qualifies as an "oppressive affliction"
        jncfhnb 3y ago
        Ok, but so what? We can agree that some people will be upset if some things are genetically curated. Is that an argument for a blanket ban against genetic curation? Because I think it’s weak as hell.
        Avicebron 3y ago
        Well if we swap "genetic curation" with "eugenics" I think you'd be hard pressed to stand up in front of a group and argue that in 2023.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    I am willing to say releasing women from the burden and risks of pregnancy is good.
    - hackinthebochs 3y ago
      Why don't we just build the experience machine if features of our nature are burdens to be discarded at the earliest opportunity? It is not obvious that a life devoid of any hardship should be the ultimate goal of technology. Some of you are way too quick to discard core aspects of humanity out of some bastardized concept of the good.
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        Not sure if I should respond, but are we really debating if preventing someone from experiencing the risks and pain involved in pregnancy and childbirth is a bastardized concept of “good”? Should we remove the option for women to receive epidurals, lest they get to miss out on a “core” aspect of humanity? What other kinds of pain and risk do you think people should be subject to? FYI, evolution does not care about the wellbeing of the individual, nor is there any inherent reason the mechanism that evolution comes up with should be held up as the ideal.
        remarkEon 3y ago
        Childbirth is not just some miserable medical procedure. The entire event is a pair bonding activity for the parents and child. Deleting that because it makes you uncomfortable is unwise.
        spondylosaurus 3y ago
        I'm gonna guess that you're not someone who can personally get pregnant, or else you might be signing a different tune on this one, lol. Childbirth is remarkably dangerous, even under current medical standards. Even a successful natural birth tends to bring a whole host of complications afterwards, and it's not unreasonable to want to avoid that. Let me be uncharitable here: do you really think a mom would love her baby any less just because she rip open her entire perineum in the process of pushing that baby out? (If so, I guess I have bad news for C-section babies...)
  - Supermancho 3y ago
    > It’s the first step toward commoditizing human life, It's also the first step toward other things...like solar exploration and maybe extra-solar exploration.
    - remarkEon 3y ago
      Please elaborate on the connection between AWT and FTL technology. I missed that node in the tech tree.
      - Supermancho 3y ago
        > Please elaborate on the connection between AWT and FTL technology. I don't know why you need to make things up, then try to argue about it. Seems like a waste of time.
        remarkEon 3y ago
        You're the one that's imagining that AWT leads to leaving the solar system.
        Supermancho 3y ago
        > You're the one that's imagining that AWT leads to leaving the solar system. That's not what I said. Technology is not a singular set of advancements to the next. As usual, nothing but bad faith responses. Good luck with whatever.
      - slashdev 3y ago
        See the concept of generational starships.
  - kevinventullo 3y ago
    It’s way past the first step. Contemplate the terminology “Human Resources”.
  - brnt 3y ago
    Human reproduction is at or over the limits of what is possible: our heads really don't fit through our pelvii anymore. The trajectory of our species and our genus has been going in the direction of brain enlargement, so it would seem only natural we use that brain to enable evolution of the brain by changing our strenuous births. Remember, there's a ton of science and experience involved in keeping mothers alive already. It is only natural to make the next step. Designing kids and/or producing (for capitalistic purposes) them seems orthogonal to artificial wombs to me: that requires other things besides merely a couple who ask a hospital to fertilize their egg with their sperm and place it in a device.
    - pfannkuchen 3y ago
      > It is only natural to make the next step. One concern is that standardized use of this would seriously risk making humans go extinct in the future. If we completely remove the selection constraint that humans are able to reproduce, over time functionality bugs will creep into that area. If, at any point in the future, society collapses to the point where we are no longer able to build these machines, we may no longer be able to reproduce and will simply die off. Maintaining this constraint on humans seems prudent. If and when we can manipulate genetics well enough to fix the issue in the actual human organism in a way that is not fragile, then that would be fine.
    - remarkEon 3y ago
      >...our heads really don't fit through our pelvii anymore. The trajectory of our species and our genus has been going in the direction of brain enlargement ... I'm interested in reading more about this trend. But whatever the data, it does not sound "natural" to take that phenomenon and apply a mechanical solution to the problem. Taken to its logical conclusion, human reproduction becomes dependent on the availability of these mechanical interventions. That sounds like a really bad idea, at least to me. >Designing kids and/or producing (for capitalistic purposes) them seems orthogonal to artificial wombs to me: that requires other things besides merely a couple who ask a hospital to fertilize their egg with their sperm and place it in a device. It may sound that way, but needing a woman to gestate the new human is a barrier to this activity. Celebrities and the uber-wealthy, in some cases, already essentially rent the reproductive systems of ostensibly willing women for this purpose. Having an artificial means do to this would remove that barrier and significantly expand the market, so one proceeds from the other.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - WorldMaker 3y ago
    Artificial surrogacy and "designer children" are two different, somewhat orthogonal concerns. Most IVF today involves no genetics modification. It's always been a slippery slope argument that surrogacy "inevitably" leads to genetically designing children. Artificial wombs would certainly change the economics of surrogacy, but it's also a bit of a slippery slope to think it would commoditize it. It doesn't change most of what we know about IVF and likely keeps the same (relatively high) costs, it maybe just disrupts the labor market for surrogacy. (Which today from what I hear is an extremely expensive market prone to shortages.)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
seydor 3y ago
It will get there

spondylosaurus 3y ago

Sounds like any widespread use is still a ways out if we're in the "setting rules for trials" phase now, but I'm curious what impact artificial wombs would have on abortion laws in the US, if any. The non-religious aspects of the abortion debate partly hinge on this idea of fetal viability (specifically, the time at which most fetuses have a high chance of survival outside the womb), and I could imagine artificial wombs bringing that viability threshold down a bit. Which then opens the door to a whole other debate about whether terminating a pregnancy could (or should) involve transplantation. I know some current bioethics argue that abortion is currently permissible because the death of the fetus is merely a side effect of terminating a pregnancy, rather than its goal...

alaaalawi 3y ago
its really leads to all sorts of question. when markets for eggs and sperms to be sold directly to interested (the layman) are there and the buyer funds the rent of the artificial womb and the food/nutrition + bio conditions. will he be the father or the owner? if more over the buyer have a farm (so to speak) of wombs?
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Perhaps whatever policies exist around surrogate pregnancies now would apply there also.
- bhouston 3y ago
  This already exists just with surrogacy as there are both egg and sperm banks available to those who need them. A lot of Hollywood stars these days are using surrogacy, it is quite common: https://people.com/parents/celebrities-who-have-used-surrogates/ https://people.com/parents/celebrities-who-have-used-surroga...
  - Melting_Harps 3y ago
    > This already exists just with surrogacy as there are both egg and sperm banks available to those who need them. True, and if you saw what played out during COVID you'll realize there is a massive market for this: during COVID healthy, viable sperm supply outstripped supply significnatly, and the market dynamics went into effect. Some so brazen as to advertise on FB to do so [0]. Surrogacy continued to thrive during COVID and was only hampered because of the Russian invasion, it is hoime to perhaps one of the biggest fertility/surrogacy countries on Earth. Lots of children were born during the war and have not been reunited with their families yet, either. It's one of the many stark and bleaker parts of the War and ultimately about the Human Condition that make me think that while we are likely inching closer towards a Brave New World situation, with all the dire implications that go along with it, that when it comes to fertility this might be the best of all bad solutions. Personally, I have chosen to delay having children for what will likely be another decade, after not following in my parent's or siblings footsteps of having children in their 20s. Its a conscious decision but ultimately a forced one: namely political strife, environmental factors and climate change are at the forefront but there are more. And seeing fertility rates absolutely crater in the 21st century in anything but the most economically dire of places (namely Africa and India) I think having the framework ahead of the device might be wise as we will have to eventually kick-start a new baby-boom in order just to reach a semi-parity as millennials like myself enter as the larger cohort with similair delays in childbirth--I''m an outlier in having children, most of my friends over 30 just don't even want children if they haven't already had them. 0: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/08/business/sperm-donors-facebook-groups.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/08/business/sperm-donors-fac... 1: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/12/world/europe/ukraine-surrogate-mothers-babies.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/12/world/europe/ukraine-surr...

bhouston 3y ago

You just know that once these work, some narcissistic billionaire is going to create a whole ton of offspring using this.[1] [1] https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/how-jeffrey-epstein-planned-to-impregnate-20-women-at-a-time-1.3978469 https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/how-jeffrey...

wmf 3y ago
What if surrogacy is cheaper and more reliable than sci-fi. (This also applies to human cloning.)
- bhouston 3y ago
  Surrogacy for now is cheaper. Generally the trend with automation across many industries is that it becomes cheaper in the long run with more predictable/controlled results. At some point in the future, it will probably seem quaint and sort of primitive to grow humans inside of other humans - as well as rely upon random sperm and ovum selection. Why live with the inconvenience and increased risk when there are safer and easier ways to do it with more predictable results.
  - ausbah 3y ago
    funnily enough there’s a new upcoming movie that tackles just that, how wanting a natural birth is “backwards” https://m.imdb.com/title/tt15768848/#:~:text=The%20Pod%20Generation%20(2023)%20is,create%20an%20unforgettable%20cinematic%20experience https://m.imdb.com/title/tt15768848/#:~:text=The%20Pod%20Gen....
    - bhouston 3y ago
      Neat. In fairness, Brave New World also did it back in 1931: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World. None of this is new ideas just that technology is catching up to science fiction.

smartplaya2001 3y ago

Sounds like the beginning of the matrix

xwdv 3y ago

It would be neat if we could find a way to gestate a child in artificial wombs a bit longer, maybe from 9 months to 18 months to have a more developed baby at birth and skip some of the more annoying early months. Then parental leave could really feel more like a vacation to spend time with your child doing meaningful stuff, instead of getting no sleep taking care of an eating and shitting, noise making creature.

boppo1 3y ago
> Then parental leave could really feel more like a vacation to spend time with your child doing meaningful stuff, instead of getting no sleep taking care of an eating and shitting, noise making creature. Then they'd just drop parental leave.
- yazaddaruvala 3y ago
  "Baby bonding leave" should still apply just the same to a child born at 18 months.
pc86 3y ago
Oh man relevant bio is relevant, holy shit. Or this is a borderline brilliant troll account.
therealdkz 3y ago
it would be also neat to have the right to abort up to 18 years and have replacement pipeline ready just in case one does not work out.
crooked-v 3y ago
The comment is a dismissive way to put it, but I find it a conceptually interesting idea, considering that, because of the limitations of our hips, human babies are arguably premature births compared to most other mammals.
seydor 3y ago
How about 15 years or so? they could listen to school lectures in the meanwhile

lifeisstillgood 3y ago

Dolly the sheep was the first clone (who survived). But her life was significantly shorter than a natural sheep, and I understand end of life diseases but hard. In other words there is good argument to be made that Dolly's creation / birth was unethical. Now multiply that about a thousand fold for this awful idea. We have no idea what the complex interplay between womb and foetus is, hormone and other signalling between mother and baby. I know this is a tiny step, but really. Don't any of these people watch movies ? You know how bad this will get ...

seydor 3y ago
If movies are our guide, we should all shoot ourselves right now
- gremlinsinc 3y ago
  if movies are our guide we don't need to, Terminators will do that for us at worst or use us as an energy source like the matrix at Best.
- lifeisstillgood 3y ago
  Humans are story-telling apes. Human culture is transmitted via stories and movies are a vastly powerful widespread story telling mechanism. Yes, movies are our guide. They are probably the most powerful of means to how we find the common set of rules and norms - the "culture war" is not some silly side argument, it is people looking for battle lines in defining the cultural norms of the 21C. Hollywood and Bollywood and xxxwood will play enormous parts in that. And we vote with our entry tickets

WorldMaker 3y ago

An interesting scifi setting that explores some of the morals/ethics/religious impacts of artificial wombs is the Vorkosigan saga. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga

deleted 3y ago

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Racing0461 3y ago

tbh its for the best, abortion/birth control/sperm banks already made "a man" useless (not men, just any individual man). It would just have the same effect on women and then we can move forward with the complete commoditization of m/f intersexual dynamics.

joker_minmax 3y ago
What is the benefit of "complete commoditization of m/f intersexual dynamics"?
- Racing0461 3y ago
  We no longer have to do the whole song and dance. If your a guy/girl and you want a kid, men can do this womb thing if it works out and women can do the whole sperm bank/ots.

joker_minmax 3y ago

Until we fully understand all of the processes in morphogenesis and hormone changes in prenatal development (hint: we don't), I see this pursuit as reckless at best. Furthermore why are we pursuing this in people when the "artificial womb" that happened with sheep was shaky?

dragonwriter 3y ago
The process of setting out regulatory rules including ones on what the criteria are that need to be met for human testing to be allowed? Seems to me that you've actually pointed to the reasons that, given that the technology is being pursued by industry, rulemaking is necessary, not premature.
- joker_minmax 3y ago
  Of course. I'm just seeing that this is a sign of where we are headed.