13 ms·

There were many factually correct, and even historically interesting responses. But not a single response answered the question.

antegamisou 3y ago
Welcome to *.stackexchange.com
wongarsu 3y ago
I'm not sure there is a good answer, beyond "the US stuck with Edison's 110V, Europe went with 230V because it's cheaper". Both 110V and 230V are reasonable choices. And of course technically the US primarily uses 230V split between two phases. But Europe mostly uses 3-phase 400V, with each phase delivering 230V (because phases are 120° offset to each other), so then we are just talking about 230V vs 400V, and two vs three phases.
- oblio 3y ago
  > Both 110V and 230V are reasonable choices. Are they, though? With modern appliances, power requirements are going up and 110V is struggling to keep up. One example would be an induction hob. I know that technically US homes can access 230V but they aren't wired for that, probably 99% are wired just for 110V except for maybe a few special lines.
  - wongarsu 3y ago
    Interestingly enough, European oven/hob combos mostly run on 400V 3-phase power. Same for many tankless water heaters. That's certainly one advantage of 230V per phase. It's probably also one factor in the decision to power things by gas vs electric.
    - rootusrootus 3y ago
      But are they more powerful? AFAIK it's pretty common for a European range to be in the 7000-10000 watt range. That's also normal in the US on single phase 240V. And I can go buy a 36000 watt tankless water heater from Home Depot. I think it's a wash, either system can deliver however much power you need. The reason for gas in the US is because people like it. It's been seen as upscale for decades to have a gas cooktop. It also helps that gas water heaters don't require electricity and work in an outage. Our residential natural gas distribution network is extensive and reliable, and it's pretty straightforward to use the same appliances on propane for people out in the sticks.
      - vel0city 3y ago
        Depending on the market it can also be cheaper per BTU to heat with gas than with electricity, at least resistive heating. Heat pumps are starting to challenge that math, but with higher upfront costs and more complexity as tradeoffs.
  - michaelt 3y ago
    > With modern appliances, power requirements are going up Things like lightbulbs and TVs and computers and refrigerators are using less power than ever before. Of course, if people are buying electric cars or replacing gas furnaces with electric heat pumps, then you're right on that side of things.
    - oblio 3y ago
      > Things like lightbulbs and TVs and computers and refrigerators are using less power than ever before. Are they, though? Lightbulbs, sure, we won with LEDs. But TVs, especially the huge, high brightness ones we have nowadays? And with the extra computing needed? Computers, same, I only see power usage going up. I mean PCs, we're not comparing things with mainframes here :-) Refrigerators: are they really more efficient? Now add: heat pump, induction stove, electric oven, more powerful AC, humidifiers/dehumidifiers, etc.
      - michaelt 3y ago
        Compared to the age of CRTs, modern TVs are much more power efficient. And compared to the age of the Pentium 4 with its 100W+ TDP, laptops now outsell desktop computers by a long way. (I would agree that things like high-end gaming GPUs are using more power than ever before - but they're also a much smaller % of sales than ever before)
        oblio 3y ago
        > Compared to the age of CRTs, modern TVs are much more power efficient. According to the internet a CRT TV used to use about 100W, while a big LCD TV can use more. Regarding desktops, don't forget that these days we have many more electronic device in a home. Smart speakers, home media devices, consoles, etc, etc. Electronics probably use, in aggregate 5-10x what the old family PC used to use, I'd imagine.
        selectodude 3y ago
        A 32” Sony trinitron would pull down about 200W. An 85” LCD will pull down about 150W.
  - wil421 3y ago
    Laundry, stove, and ovens use 240V outlets (assuming no gas). It’s not very common but I know a few people with wood working tools who have installed 240v outlets. Wood framed houses make it easy to change wiring. To change my gas stove/oven back to 240v induction would be a 15 foot run of romex, a new outlet, and probably an updated circuit breaker. Possible for a DIYer to do.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    Every US home I've lived in had 240V access in the kitchen for appliances like electric ranges. They absolutely are wired for that. Practically nobody's house only has 120V.
    - gibspaulding 3y ago
      It sounds like you've always lived in relatively new/high end houses then. Older houses might have a dedicated 240 plug for the dryer and the stove if they're not natural gass, but for everything else there are plenty of homes full of ungrounded 10 amp 120v circuits.
      - vel0city 3y ago
        My current house was built in '82. Is that a new house? That's 41 years old at this point. Its a pretty average single family suburban build for the time, not anything especially fancy even for its day. Loads of houses we looked at in the area were built in the 70s and 60s and often had electric 240V appliances in the kitchen. That's about 60 years old, is that a new? A single car garage 1500sqft 3bdr house in a suburb sound like a high end house? And yeah, my house is full of 120V circuits, but once again the house has 240V at the panel and could run 240V anywhere in the house if needed. As you pointed out, they probably do have a 240V plug for the dryer, ergo they've got 240V service at the property, so they could wire the kitchen if there's no wiring already. Once again, practically nobody has only 120V service at their home.
        sbradford26 3y ago
        Yeah the only situation I can think of only 120v being available in a house is if it is a separate unit running off a 120v sub panel from the main building. The other option would be some off grid setups for like a tiny home might only run 120v. That is mostly because anything that would require 240v would be too power hungry to run off of the solar system.
      - rootusrootus 3y ago
        That would be by choice, though. My mom's 110 year old house still has some circuits with cloth wiring. But it has a number of new (40-50 year old) circuits that are normal, grounded 5-15 120V. And the kitchen, basement, and garage have 240V receptacles. This is pretty much the same setup as any modern house.
  - sbradford26 3y ago
    Fundamentally the US just wires things differently. If a house has an electric or induction hob(Cooktop) it will be permanently wired for 240v. All your high power devices such as HVAC, ovens, cooktops, and EV chargers have dedicated lines at 240v for them. Every house in the US other than some super niche scenarios has 240V. Yes largely most everything is wired for 120V and only a few special lines at 240v but that is because those are the only things that really require more power.
    - ponector 3y ago
      While in Europe every regular socket has 230V but induction has 400V with 5-wired connection. It is amazing how fast it can boil water!
      - bluGill 3y ago
        Power = V*A. You can get any given power output out of any voltage by following the formula. The number of wires is not a factor at all. Number of wires and voltage is a factor in cost of install of course, but nothing else.
      - sbradford26 3y ago
        Yes European ones will run on higher voltage but largely they are equally powerful. US Version: https://www.bosch-home.com/us/productslist/cooking-baking/cooktops/induction-cooktops/NITP660SUC#/Tabs=section-technicalspecs/Togglebox=accessories/Togglebox=manuals/Togglebox=accessoriesOthers/ https://www.bosch-home.com/us/productslist/cooking-baking/co... UK Version: https://www.bosch-home.co.uk/product-list/cooking-baking/hobs/induction-hobs/PXX975KW1E#/Tabs=section-manuals/Togglebox=accessories/Togglebox=combinables/Togglebox=manuals/Togglebox=accessoriesOthers/ https://www.bosch-home.co.uk/product-list/cooking-baking/hob... Largely they have the same power output. While the total power available is actually higher for the US version at 12kW versus 11.1 kW for the UK version. That is because the US version needs to be on a 50 amp 240v circuit versus the max 16 amp circuit for the UK version. Even this Bosch one: https://www.bosch-home.co.uk/product-list/cooking-baking/hobs/venting-hobs/PXX875D67E#/Tabs=section-technical-overview/Togglebox=accessories/Togglebox=manuals/Togglebox=accessoriesOthers/ https://www.bosch-home.co.uk/product-list/cooking-baking/hob... Which clearly calls out 400v 3 phase has a lower power output at 7.4 kW. The max output to a single pan/pot typically is going to max out around 3.3-3.7 kW. I don't know the exact reasoning behind that but I assume it might cause issues with cookware if you go much higher than that.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- johann8384 3y ago
  US Power is typically 240v split-phase, a single phase, not two phases. The transformer is 7200v to 240v. The Neutral line to your house is center tapped on the transformer giving you 120v from Hot to Neutral and 240v from Hot to Hot. I have L14-30 and L5-30 outlets throughout my house and property for example which lets me run higher voltage/amperage workloads more easily. My workshop has an isolation transformer which is 240v primary and 120v secondary. This allows me to run 80A of 120v "stuff" in my workshop but it's a 40A 240v load from the perspective of the main panel in the house.
  - mrcommentwriter 3y ago
    Interesting, I haven’t heard of anyone doing this before. What is the advantage? Assuming 120v loads are split reasonably equally between each leg of the 240v phase, the load will mostly be on the 240v circuit because both legs are connected in series. The neutral back to the transformer is only used to carry the difference between the 120v load on each leg of the phase, and also to keep the system grounded. I guess if you had a panel close to load capacity, as well as a single very high amp 120v device, the transformer could enable some more capacity by ensuring the load was distributed equally between the phases. However at that point a service upgrade would probably be necessary anyway based on the load calculation rules in the code. Also high amp 120v devices are quite rare as far as I know, so I was wondering why you went with this unusual setup.
JadeNB 3y ago
Do you know the answer? (Of course your remark makes sense even if you don't, but, if you do, then I'd love to know.)
tyingq 3y ago
The one explaining that Edison's DC system they were competing with, in the US, was using ~100v DC. And the public disinformation campaign characterizing AC as unsafe. Including attacking anything higher than approximately 100v as unsafe. That seemed like it answered the question to me.
refurb 3y ago
"Edison's lamps were 100V" is in one of the answers.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  And to me this seems most obvious answers. With possibility that you had other resistive loads at that voltage already sold. And people would be rather gross if they had to replace them.
wiredfool 3y ago
So, not only is the UK 230v, it's also wired in a ring (i.e., your circuit isn't a branch from your junction box, it's a full loop). So, for a given power capacity, you can use much less copper. (from the wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_wiring_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_wiring_in_the_Unite...) UK fixed wiring circuits, unlike those found in almost all other countries, make widespread use of ring circuit designs, as well as radial circuit designs often seen in other countries. (This was one of the recommendations of the Electrical Installations Committee, convened in 1942 as part of the Post War Building Studies programme, which in 1944 determined that the ring final circuit offered a more efficient and lower cost method to support a greater number of sockets.[6]) It continues to be the usual wiring method for domestic and light commercial socket and device wiring in the UK. Lighting circuits, which typically have lower power requirements, are usually radially wired, confusingly sometimes called "loop" wiring. So, the why is: More power, less copper, and that's really useful when you're resource constrained because someone has declared war on you and is blockading your coast, or you're recovering from that.
jqpabc123 3y ago
There is not one single all encompassing answer. Safety was one significant concern. 230-240V is more likely to stop a person's heart. 220 is available in most US homes for specific cases where it is more practical. Speaking from experience, I don't think it is uncommon for a person to have been electrically shocked at some point in their lives --- often when they were a child.
- wongarsu 3y ago
  Maybe common in the US. Europe takes plug and outlet design more serious (as a consequence of 230V), and while the UK plug and continental Europe's Schuko plug are very different both make it basically impossible to accidentally shock yourself.
  - jqpabc123 3y ago
    Plugs are only part of the safety issue. Wire insulation deteriorates over time. Rodents like to chew through it. Water can find it's way in through plumbing or roof leaks. Higher voltage is more likely to start a fire in these instances.
    - izacus 3y ago
      Are there any stats showing that Europe has more issues with electricutions and electrical fires?
      - jqpabc123 3y ago
        According to the European Fire Safety Alliance: The total number of fires of electrical origin in the EU is estimated to be 273,000 per year. According to the US National Fire Protection Assocation: Fire departments responded to an estimated average of 46,700 home fires involving electrical failure or malfunction each year in 2015–2019. Stats aside, which do you think will cause a bigger spark, 110 or 220? https://www.europeanfiresafetyalliance.org/publications/white-paper-residential-electrical-safety/ https://www.europeanfiresafetyalliance.org/publications/whit... https://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Research/Data-research-and-tools/Electrical/Electrical https://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Research/Data-research-and-too...

antegamisou 3y ago

Welcome to *.stackexchange.com

wongarsu 3y ago

I'm not sure there is a good answer, beyond "the US stuck with Edison's 110V, Europe went with 230V because it's cheaper". Both 110V and 230V are reasonable choices. And of course technically the US primarily uses 230V split between two phases. But Europe mostly uses 3-phase 400V, with each phase delivering 230V (because phases are 120° offset to each other), so then we are just talking about 230V vs 400V, and two vs three phases.

oblio 3y ago
> Both 110V and 230V are reasonable choices. Are they, though? With modern appliances, power requirements are going up and 110V is struggling to keep up. One example would be an induction hob. I know that technically US homes can access 230V but they aren't wired for that, probably 99% are wired just for 110V except for maybe a few special lines.
- wongarsu 3y ago
  Interestingly enough, European oven/hob combos mostly run on 400V 3-phase power. Same for many tankless water heaters. That's certainly one advantage of 230V per phase. It's probably also one factor in the decision to power things by gas vs electric.
  - rootusrootus 3y ago
    But are they more powerful? AFAIK it's pretty common for a European range to be in the 7000-10000 watt range. That's also normal in the US on single phase 240V. And I can go buy a 36000 watt tankless water heater from Home Depot. I think it's a wash, either system can deliver however much power you need. The reason for gas in the US is because people like it. It's been seen as upscale for decades to have a gas cooktop. It also helps that gas water heaters don't require electricity and work in an outage. Our residential natural gas distribution network is extensive and reliable, and it's pretty straightforward to use the same appliances on propane for people out in the sticks.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      Depending on the market it can also be cheaper per BTU to heat with gas than with electricity, at least resistive heating. Heat pumps are starting to challenge that math, but with higher upfront costs and more complexity as tradeoffs.
- michaelt 3y ago
  > With modern appliances, power requirements are going up Things like lightbulbs and TVs and computers and refrigerators are using less power than ever before. Of course, if people are buying electric cars or replacing gas furnaces with electric heat pumps, then you're right on that side of things.
  - oblio 3y ago
    > Things like lightbulbs and TVs and computers and refrigerators are using less power than ever before. Are they, though? Lightbulbs, sure, we won with LEDs. But TVs, especially the huge, high brightness ones we have nowadays? And with the extra computing needed? Computers, same, I only see power usage going up. I mean PCs, we're not comparing things with mainframes here :-) Refrigerators: are they really more efficient? Now add: heat pump, induction stove, electric oven, more powerful AC, humidifiers/dehumidifiers, etc.
    - michaelt 3y ago
      Compared to the age of CRTs, modern TVs are much more power efficient. And compared to the age of the Pentium 4 with its 100W+ TDP, laptops now outsell desktop computers by a long way. (I would agree that things like high-end gaming GPUs are using more power than ever before - but they're also a much smaller % of sales than ever before)
      - oblio 3y ago
        > Compared to the age of CRTs, modern TVs are much more power efficient. According to the internet a CRT TV used to use about 100W, while a big LCD TV can use more. Regarding desktops, don't forget that these days we have many more electronic device in a home. Smart speakers, home media devices, consoles, etc, etc. Electronics probably use, in aggregate 5-10x what the old family PC used to use, I'd imagine.
        selectodude 3y ago
        A 32” Sony trinitron would pull down about 200W. An 85” LCD will pull down about 150W.
- wil421 3y ago
  Laundry, stove, and ovens use 240V outlets (assuming no gas). It’s not very common but I know a few people with wood working tools who have installed 240v outlets. Wood framed houses make it easy to change wiring. To change my gas stove/oven back to 240v induction would be a 15 foot run of romex, a new outlet, and probably an updated circuit breaker. Possible for a DIYer to do.
- vel0city 3y ago
  Every US home I've lived in had 240V access in the kitchen for appliances like electric ranges. They absolutely are wired for that. Practically nobody's house only has 120V.
  - gibspaulding 3y ago
    It sounds like you've always lived in relatively new/high end houses then. Older houses might have a dedicated 240 plug for the dryer and the stove if they're not natural gass, but for everything else there are plenty of homes full of ungrounded 10 amp 120v circuits.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      My current house was built in '82. Is that a new house? That's 41 years old at this point. Its a pretty average single family suburban build for the time, not anything especially fancy even for its day. Loads of houses we looked at in the area were built in the 70s and 60s and often had electric 240V appliances in the kitchen. That's about 60 years old, is that a new? A single car garage 1500sqft 3bdr house in a suburb sound like a high end house? And yeah, my house is full of 120V circuits, but once again the house has 240V at the panel and could run 240V anywhere in the house if needed. As you pointed out, they probably do have a 240V plug for the dryer, ergo they've got 240V service at the property, so they could wire the kitchen if there's no wiring already. Once again, practically nobody has only 120V service at their home.
      - sbradford26 3y ago
        Yeah the only situation I can think of only 120v being available in a house is if it is a separate unit running off a 120v sub panel from the main building. The other option would be some off grid setups for like a tiny home might only run 120v. That is mostly because anything that would require 240v would be too power hungry to run off of the solar system.
    - rootusrootus 3y ago
      That would be by choice, though. My mom's 110 year old house still has some circuits with cloth wiring. But it has a number of new (40-50 year old) circuits that are normal, grounded 5-15 120V. And the kitchen, basement, and garage have 240V receptacles. This is pretty much the same setup as any modern house.
- sbradford26 3y ago
  Fundamentally the US just wires things differently. If a house has an electric or induction hob(Cooktop) it will be permanently wired for 240v. All your high power devices such as HVAC, ovens, cooktops, and EV chargers have dedicated lines at 240v for them. Every house in the US other than some super niche scenarios has 240V. Yes largely most everything is wired for 120V and only a few special lines at 240v but that is because those are the only things that really require more power.
  - ponector 3y ago
    While in Europe every regular socket has 230V but induction has 400V with 5-wired connection. It is amazing how fast it can boil water!
    - bluGill 3y ago
      Power = V*A. You can get any given power output out of any voltage by following the formula. The number of wires is not a factor at all. Number of wires and voltage is a factor in cost of install of course, but nothing else.
    - sbradford26 3y ago
      Yes European ones will run on higher voltage but largely they are equally powerful. US Version: https://www.bosch-home.com/us/productslist/cooking-baking/cooktops/induction-cooktops/NITP660SUC#/Tabs=section-technicalspecs/Togglebox=accessories/Togglebox=manuals/Togglebox=accessoriesOthers/ https://www.bosch-home.com/us/productslist/cooking-baking/co... UK Version: https://www.bosch-home.co.uk/product-list/cooking-baking/hobs/induction-hobs/PXX975KW1E#/Tabs=section-manuals/Togglebox=accessories/Togglebox=combinables/Togglebox=manuals/Togglebox=accessoriesOthers/ https://www.bosch-home.co.uk/product-list/cooking-baking/hob... Largely they have the same power output. While the total power available is actually higher for the US version at 12kW versus 11.1 kW for the UK version. That is because the US version needs to be on a 50 amp 240v circuit versus the max 16 amp circuit for the UK version. Even this Bosch one: https://www.bosch-home.co.uk/product-list/cooking-baking/hobs/venting-hobs/PXX875D67E#/Tabs=section-technical-overview/Togglebox=accessories/Togglebox=manuals/Togglebox=accessoriesOthers/ https://www.bosch-home.co.uk/product-list/cooking-baking/hob... Which clearly calls out 400v 3 phase has a lower power output at 7.4 kW. The max output to a single pan/pot typically is going to max out around 3.3-3.7 kW. I don't know the exact reasoning behind that but I assume it might cause issues with cookware if you go much higher than that.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
johann8384 3y ago
US Power is typically 240v split-phase, a single phase, not two phases. The transformer is 7200v to 240v. The Neutral line to your house is center tapped on the transformer giving you 120v from Hot to Neutral and 240v from Hot to Hot. I have L14-30 and L5-30 outlets throughout my house and property for example which lets me run higher voltage/amperage workloads more easily. My workshop has an isolation transformer which is 240v primary and 120v secondary. This allows me to run 80A of 120v "stuff" in my workshop but it's a 40A 240v load from the perspective of the main panel in the house.
- mrcommentwriter 3y ago
  Interesting, I haven’t heard of anyone doing this before. What is the advantage? Assuming 120v loads are split reasonably equally between each leg of the 240v phase, the load will mostly be on the 240v circuit because both legs are connected in series. The neutral back to the transformer is only used to carry the difference between the 120v load on each leg of the phase, and also to keep the system grounded. I guess if you had a panel close to load capacity, as well as a single very high amp 120v device, the transformer could enable some more capacity by ensuring the load was distributed equally between the phases. However at that point a service upgrade would probably be necessary anyway based on the load calculation rules in the code. Also high amp 120v devices are quite rare as far as I know, so I was wondering why you went with this unusual setup.

JadeNB 3y ago

Do you know the answer? (Of course your remark makes sense even if you don't, but, if you do, then I'd love to know.)

tyingq 3y ago

The one explaining that Edison's DC system they were competing with, in the US, was using ~100v DC. And the public disinformation campaign characterizing AC as unsafe. Including attacking anything higher than approximately 100v as unsafe. That seemed like it answered the question to me.

refurb 3y ago

"Edison's lamps were 100V" is in one of the answers.

Ekaros 3y ago
And to me this seems most obvious answers. With possibility that you had other resistive loads at that voltage already sold. And people would be rather gross if they had to replace them.

wiredfool 3y ago

So, not only is the UK 230v, it's also wired in a ring (i.e., your circuit isn't a branch from your junction box, it's a full loop). So, for a given power capacity, you can use much less copper. (from the wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_wiring_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_wiring_in_the_Unite...) UK fixed wiring circuits, unlike those found in almost all other countries, make widespread use of ring circuit designs, as well as radial circuit designs often seen in other countries. (This was one of the recommendations of the Electrical Installations Committee, convened in 1942 as part of the Post War Building Studies programme, which in 1944 determined that the ring final circuit offered a more efficient and lower cost method to support a greater number of sockets.[6]) It continues to be the usual wiring method for domestic and light commercial socket and device wiring in the UK. Lighting circuits, which typically have lower power requirements, are usually radially wired, confusingly sometimes called "loop" wiring. So, the why is: More power, less copper, and that's really useful when you're resource constrained because someone has declared war on you and is blockading your coast, or you're recovering from that.

jqpabc123 3y ago

There is not one single all encompassing answer. Safety was one significant concern. 230-240V is more likely to stop a person's heart. 220 is available in most US homes for specific cases where it is more practical. Speaking from experience, I don't think it is uncommon for a person to have been electrically shocked at some point in their lives --- often when they were a child.

wongarsu 3y ago
Maybe common in the US. Europe takes plug and outlet design more serious (as a consequence of 230V), and while the UK plug and continental Europe's Schuko plug are very different both make it basically impossible to accidentally shock yourself.
- jqpabc123 3y ago
  Plugs are only part of the safety issue. Wire insulation deteriorates over time. Rodents like to chew through it. Water can find it's way in through plumbing or roof leaks. Higher voltage is more likely to start a fire in these instances.
  - izacus 3y ago
    Are there any stats showing that Europe has more issues with electricutions and electrical fires?
    - jqpabc123 3y ago
      According to the European Fire Safety Alliance: The total number of fires of electrical origin in the EU is estimated to be 273,000 per year. According to the US National Fire Protection Assocation: Fire departments responded to an estimated average of 46,700 home fires involving electrical failure or malfunction each year in 2015–2019. Stats aside, which do you think will cause a bigger spark, 110 or 220? https://www.europeanfiresafetyalliance.org/publications/white-paper-residential-electrical-safety/ https://www.europeanfiresafetyalliance.org/publications/whit... https://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Research/Data-research-and-tools/Electrical/Electrical https://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Research/Data-research-and-too...