4 ms·

Not only severance but unemployment compensation (which can significantly affect mandatory unemployment insurance costs to the company) can also be avoided by c

by toss1 3y ago

Not only severance but unemployment compensation (which can significantly affect mandatory unemployment insurance costs to the company) can also be avoided by companies if their people quit instead of being laid off. That is why there is the concept of "Constructive Dismissal" (or other similar terms). If the company is significantly degrading your work conditions, hours, requirements, interactions, responsibilities, etc., for the reason of getting you to quit instead of firing you, there may be an issue. If you have immediate better employment options, take them without doing your old company any favors. But if you do not, start making detailed contemporaneous logs of what is happening to you (and what happened before) and talk to an attorney specializing in your state's employment law. Do not take it lying down, especially if you don't have immediate better options.

wkat4242 3y ago
> If you have immediate better employment options, take them without doing your old company any favors. Not sure about the US but here in Europe that's a very bad idea. If you change jobs willingly you give up your "seniority" meaning if your next job lays you off you will get no severance and also lower unemployment benefits. So caving in you would give up a huge chunk of social security. If you have a mortgage in particular I wouldn't risk it. I have 15 years seniority right now. Meaning I'd get full pay for more than a year after being laid off. No way would I quit voluntarily. But this coercion is pretty rare here because unions are strong. They won't put up with that shit. On an individual level it's probably best to play the same game. They screw you just within the lines, you screw them back just within the lines. But again luckily this skullduggery is rare here.
- toss1 3y ago
  Indeed!! - I was speaking only in the US context and I am not a lawyer; not legal advice). Same sort of applies here but usually only if you are a union employee, but then you have your union management who can resolve such issues.
- nradov 3y ago
  Wow that's really terrible advice. If you see a good opportunity then jump on it and don't look back. Otherwise your career will stagnate and you'll eventually get stuck somewhere with no growth potential. As for paying your mortgage, anyone working in a volatile field such as tech should prioritize saving up several months of living expenses. You have to assume that on any given day your employer might get destroyed by an upstart competitor and lay everyone off.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    That's a very US centric view IMO. Here the companies stick around longer. We don't do that survival of the fittest mindset here. And with the ridiculous house prices and crap wages even in tech it's not really possible to save anymore. I'd take social security over anything. My accrued benefits are something I am entitled to and I worked hard for and I wouldn't drop them without a fight.
    - Detrytus 3y ago
      > We don't do that survival of the fittest mindset here. Which is why the gap between US and Europe is widening - 20 years ago EU GDP was on par with US, now it is 2/3rds of it (and that's after adding UK, to make things comparable after Brexit).
      - wkat4242 3y ago
        I don't really care though. I don't always want more more more. I have enough. The only thing that's really crazy expensive is housing but that follows GDP anyway, the real issue is shortage. I even took a pay cut to move to a lower-wage country with higher quality of life. Slower pace, better weather, better infrastructure and social services. I don't even need a car now because public transport is amazing where I live and I really enjoy not having to worry about one. But what I want from my job is stability and security. Not golden mountains in the distance if I work myself down to the bone.
    - nradov 3y ago
      Europe has the same survival of the fittest mindset as the USA. When revenue drops, employees are laid off and businesses go bankrupt or get sold for a pittance. Olivetti, Bull, and Nokia used to be a computing industry leaders. How many people work there now? No one is entitled to anything beyond human rights. Your social security can be cut with the stroke of a pen. In fact, if you live long enough then that will probably happen due to the collapsing demographics in most European countries.
- Detrytus 3y ago
  So, the biggest opportunity you can count on in your current job is to be laid off and get a huge severance? I guess that makes sense for some low level, incompetent employees who live in fear that their incompetence will be discovered and they will be laid off. For people who are actually good at their jobs that's a very limiting approach. But then, unions were invented for slackers.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    No, it's a safety net in case that happens. Not an opportunity.
frumper 3y ago
At least in California, if your employer substantially changes your work duties or schedule, then you can very likely collect UI. Your advice to take better employment options is still the best advice though.

by toss1 3y ago

wkat4242 3y ago

> If you have immediate better employment options, take them without doing your old company any favors. Not sure about the US but here in Europe that's a very bad idea. If you change jobs willingly you give up your "seniority" meaning if your next job lays you off you will get no severance and also lower unemployment benefits. So caving in you would give up a huge chunk of social security. If you have a mortgage in particular I wouldn't risk it. I have 15 years seniority right now. Meaning I'd get full pay for more than a year after being laid off. No way would I quit voluntarily. But this coercion is pretty rare here because unions are strong. They won't put up with that shit. On an individual level it's probably best to play the same game. They screw you just within the lines, you screw them back just within the lines. But again luckily this skullduggery is rare here.

toss1 3y ago
Indeed!! - I was speaking only in the US context and I am not a lawyer; not legal advice). Same sort of applies here but usually only if you are a union employee, but then you have your union management who can resolve such issues.
nradov 3y ago
Wow that's really terrible advice. If you see a good opportunity then jump on it and don't look back. Otherwise your career will stagnate and you'll eventually get stuck somewhere with no growth potential. As for paying your mortgage, anyone working in a volatile field such as tech should prioritize saving up several months of living expenses. You have to assume that on any given day your employer might get destroyed by an upstart competitor and lay everyone off.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  That's a very US centric view IMO. Here the companies stick around longer. We don't do that survival of the fittest mindset here. And with the ridiculous house prices and crap wages even in tech it's not really possible to save anymore. I'd take social security over anything. My accrued benefits are something I am entitled to and I worked hard for and I wouldn't drop them without a fight.
  - Detrytus 3y ago
    > We don't do that survival of the fittest mindset here. Which is why the gap between US and Europe is widening - 20 years ago EU GDP was on par with US, now it is 2/3rds of it (and that's after adding UK, to make things comparable after Brexit).
    - wkat4242 3y ago
      I don't really care though. I don't always want more more more. I have enough. The only thing that's really crazy expensive is housing but that follows GDP anyway, the real issue is shortage. I even took a pay cut to move to a lower-wage country with higher quality of life. Slower pace, better weather, better infrastructure and social services. I don't even need a car now because public transport is amazing where I live and I really enjoy not having to worry about one. But what I want from my job is stability and security. Not golden mountains in the distance if I work myself down to the bone.
  - nradov 3y ago
    Europe has the same survival of the fittest mindset as the USA. When revenue drops, employees are laid off and businesses go bankrupt or get sold for a pittance. Olivetti, Bull, and Nokia used to be a computing industry leaders. How many people work there now? No one is entitled to anything beyond human rights. Your social security can be cut with the stroke of a pen. In fact, if you live long enough then that will probably happen due to the collapsing demographics in most European countries.
Detrytus 3y ago
So, the biggest opportunity you can count on in your current job is to be laid off and get a huge severance? I guess that makes sense for some low level, incompetent employees who live in fear that their incompetence will be discovered and they will be laid off. For people who are actually good at their jobs that's a very limiting approach. But then, unions were invented for slackers.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  No, it's a safety net in case that happens. Not an opportunity.

frumper 3y ago

At least in California, if your employer substantially changes your work duties or schedule, then you can very likely collect UI. Your advice to take better employment options is still the best advice though.