5 ms·

Teslas marketing has been in direct conflict with its capabilities, and hopefully they’ll get smacked down hard enough to stop being reckless with what they cla

by Zetice 3y ago

Teslas marketing has been in direct conflict with its capabilities, and hopefully they’ll get smacked down hard enough to stop being reckless with what they claim vs. what they disclaim later on. It’s called Full Self Driving. That matters, even if they clarify in the fine print.

mholt 3y ago
FSD wasn't released until the year after these crashes.
- shkkmo 3y ago
  Tesla has been reckless with their self driving claims and safety for far longer than FSD has been available to the public. The suggestion here is that getting hit for those earlier reckless claims might hopefully get them to be less deceptive going forward.
- stetrain 3y ago
  They've been taking money for a packaged called "Full Self Driving" since 2016.
  - Ukv 3y ago
    They've been taking money for cars with hardware capabilities to later become full-self driving, to my understanding. Could consider it taking money to pre-order FSD, but GP's point that it wasn't released yet is still relevant.
    - stetrain 3y ago
      All the cars produced have the same “FSD” hardware regardless of options selected. They are selling a software packaged called “Full Self Driving” that includes some current features, some “beta” features, and promises of additional functionality. Yes, Tesla has not yet released any non-beta feature that is really “Full Self Driving” but the marketing can be pretty muddled on what the car does today vs what it may do in the future.
      - Ukv 3y ago
        Here's what the options screen would have looked like around the time: https://i.imgur.com/v9YzIlf.png https://i.imgur.com/v9YzIlf.png The FSD computer required for the latter ("HW3") is a real physical part: https://i.imgur.com/WSWzOGQ.png https://i.imgur.com/WSWzOGQ.png
        stetrain 3y ago
        Yes, but which option you check doesn't change which hardware you car comes with. The HW3 situation was Tesla updating the hardware for people who both bought an older car and paid for the FSD "preorder" package, since they later determined that the computer shipped in those older cars was not enough for upcoming functionality, despite saying in 2016 that all of their cars had the hardware necessary for Level 5 Self-Driving. https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now... > Tesla CEO Elon Musk says the new hardware will support Level 5 autonomy, which means the cars can drive themselves completely. However, Tesla will not enable full self-driving immediately. Instead, Musk says the company will roll out features to enhance safety and assist drivers, eventually leading to full autonomy. https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/elon-musk-says-all-tesla-models-will-have-self-driving-hardware/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/elon-musk-says-all-tesla-... So they've been selling a product called "Full Self Driving" since 2016, and also claiming along the way that the current hardware in the car is capable of "Full Self Driving" in the future, pending safety testing and regulatory approval. They also have a marketing video that says "The person in the driver's seat is only there for legal reasons. The car is driving itself" that has also been up since 2016: https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot
        Ukv 3y ago
        > The HW3 situation was Tesla updating the hardware for people who both bought an older car and paid for the FSD "preorder" package Also people who had initially opted for just enhanced autopilot on HW2.5 then later decided to upgrade to FSD. > So they've been selling a product called "Full Self Driving" since 2016 They've been selling hardware capability (hence the HW3 upgrade for those who bought it) for when FSD eventually releases. To me it seems reasonably labelled that it's future functionality and not yet FSD. Either way, FSD had not released at the time and as far as I can tell the allegations target regular autopilot, not about being mislead into preordering FSD capability.
baz00 3y ago
[flagged]
agloe_dreams 3y ago
That won't happen. Tesla is in a complex legal situation where a reaction twoards it also means a reaction towards spaceX and twitter, both of which have parts of the US government happy with.
- ProjectArcturis 3y ago
  Do you really think the judge and jury in this trial are going to be worried about the federal government's relationship with SpaceX and Twitter?
  - agloe_dreams 3y ago
    Do you really think any fine this trial could create would ever be enough? Trials like this tend to spur political action..but my point is clear. Tesla will pay some rounding error fine, the US Gov will do nothing to stop it. This trial cannot possibly generate an actual smackdown without political intervention. This isn't the EU.
    - Spooky23 3y ago
      It’s also perfectly reasonable for a Tesla to be held accountable for mistakes their AI makes. A big part of a valuation of the company is that Tesla can continue to flout any rules and do whatever they want, while blaming anyone and anything in the way. Their valuation assumes that services like self driving will drive P&L. If the company is held accountable, you have to factor in the cost of that. Not good for a stock as highly valued.
    - ProjectArcturis 3y ago
      >Do you really think any fine this trial could create would ever be enough? Certainly! American juries have been known to return multi-billion-dollar punitive damages when they're convinced a company has acted maliciously. Look at JNJ, which is on the hook for $9B for selling baby powder contaminated with asbestos.
    - freejazz 3y ago

by Zetice 3y ago

mholt 3y ago

FSD wasn't released until the year after these crashes.

shkkmo 3y ago
Tesla has been reckless with their self driving claims and safety for far longer than FSD has been available to the public. The suggestion here is that getting hit for those earlier reckless claims might hopefully get them to be less deceptive going forward.
stetrain 3y ago
They've been taking money for a packaged called "Full Self Driving" since 2016.
- Ukv 3y ago
  They've been taking money for cars with hardware capabilities to later become full-self driving, to my understanding. Could consider it taking money to pre-order FSD, but GP's point that it wasn't released yet is still relevant.
  - stetrain 3y ago
    All the cars produced have the same “FSD” hardware regardless of options selected. They are selling a software packaged called “Full Self Driving” that includes some current features, some “beta” features, and promises of additional functionality. Yes, Tesla has not yet released any non-beta feature that is really “Full Self Driving” but the marketing can be pretty muddled on what the car does today vs what it may do in the future.
    - Ukv 3y ago
      Here's what the options screen would have looked like around the time: https://i.imgur.com/v9YzIlf.png https://i.imgur.com/v9YzIlf.png The FSD computer required for the latter ("HW3") is a real physical part: https://i.imgur.com/WSWzOGQ.png https://i.imgur.com/WSWzOGQ.png
      - stetrain 3y ago
        Yes, but which option you check doesn't change which hardware you car comes with. The HW3 situation was Tesla updating the hardware for people who both bought an older car and paid for the FSD "preorder" package, since they later determined that the computer shipped in those older cars was not enough for upcoming functionality, despite saying in 2016 that all of their cars had the hardware necessary for Level 5 Self-Driving. https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now... > Tesla CEO Elon Musk says the new hardware will support Level 5 autonomy, which means the cars can drive themselves completely. However, Tesla will not enable full self-driving immediately. Instead, Musk says the company will roll out features to enhance safety and assist drivers, eventually leading to full autonomy. https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/elon-musk-says-all-tesla-models-will-have-self-driving-hardware/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/elon-musk-says-all-tesla-... So they've been selling a product called "Full Self Driving" since 2016, and also claiming along the way that the current hardware in the car is capable of "Full Self Driving" in the future, pending safety testing and regulatory approval. They also have a marketing video that says "The person in the driver's seat is only there for legal reasons. The car is driving itself" that has also been up since 2016: https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot
        Ukv 3y ago
        > The HW3 situation was Tesla updating the hardware for people who both bought an older car and paid for the FSD "preorder" package Also people who had initially opted for just enhanced autopilot on HW2.5 then later decided to upgrade to FSD. > So they've been selling a product called "Full Self Driving" since 2016 They've been selling hardware capability (hence the HW3 upgrade for those who bought it) for when FSD eventually releases. To me it seems reasonably labelled that it's future functionality and not yet FSD. Either way, FSD had not released at the time and as far as I can tell the allegations target regular autopilot, not about being mislead into preordering FSD capability.

baz00 3y ago

[flagged]

agloe_dreams 3y ago

That won't happen. Tesla is in a complex legal situation where a reaction twoards it also means a reaction towards spaceX and twitter, both of which have parts of the US government happy with.

ProjectArcturis 3y ago
Do you really think the judge and jury in this trial are going to be worried about the federal government's relationship with SpaceX and Twitter?
- agloe_dreams 3y ago
  Do you really think any fine this trial could create would ever be enough? Trials like this tend to spur political action..but my point is clear. Tesla will pay some rounding error fine, the US Gov will do nothing to stop it. This trial cannot possibly generate an actual smackdown without political intervention. This isn't the EU.
  - Spooky23 3y ago
    It’s also perfectly reasonable for a Tesla to be held accountable for mistakes their AI makes. A big part of a valuation of the company is that Tesla can continue to flout any rules and do whatever they want, while blaming anyone and anything in the way. Their valuation assumes that services like self driving will drive P&L. If the company is held accountable, you have to factor in the cost of that. Not good for a stock as highly valued.
  - ProjectArcturis 3y ago
    >Do you really think any fine this trial could create would ever be enough? Certainly! American juries have been known to return multi-billion-dollar punitive damages when they're convinced a company has acted maliciously. Look at JNJ, which is on the hook for $9B for selling baby powder contaminated with asbestos.
  - freejazz 3y ago