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I feel like burning some karma, so here's an unpopular opinion: the recent rise of gender dysphoria can be explained by the increasing endocrine disruptor load

I feel like burning some karma, so here's an unpopular opinion: the recent rise of gender dysphoria can be explained by the increasing endocrine disruptor load of the younger generations.

verisimi 3y ago
[flagged]
- ljf 3y ago
  Gender dysphoria is not about lacking a hormone. People born a man with 100 percent of the testosterone they 'should' have, can still have a total need to transition to Female. Giving them more testosterone won't help.
  - hypertele-Xii 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - begett 3y ago
      [flagged]
  - verisimi 3y ago
    No. Testosterone in men has drastically declined. It used to be ~50% higher than today. https://testosteronedecline.com/testosterone-levels-100-years-ago/ https://testosteronedecline.com/testosterone-levels-100-year... > As you can see, average testosterone in the USA was something like 625 ng/dl in the 70’s, until the early 80’s. This is reasonably high testosterone. But since then it has been falling steadily. > For the average American man in the period of 2013 – 2016, testosterone was 420 ng/dl. (source)
    - nyanpasu64 3y ago
      The reason trans people suffer with their natal puberty and hormones is not because they aren't receiving enough hormone, but because they're receiving the wrong hormones which disrupt the brain and/or cause undesired sexual characteristics (including bodily proportions and bone/fat distribution) which cause existential mental distress. Giving extra testosterone to men with low testosterone may help, but giving extra testosterone to trans women forced through a male puberty is psychological and physical abuse.
      - verisimi 3y ago
        But giving hormones to children (who may not recognise the future repercussions of their childhood decisions) to prevent puberty etc is not psychological or physical abuse? How is that not active, literal abuse? The suggestion I'm making is therapeutic - it is supportive of the biology of the person who is suffering with a unbalanced hormones. At the end of the treatment I propose, it remains a possibility that the person can live a normal life, being able to reproduce etc - as opposed to becoming sterilised.
        nyanpasu64 3y ago
        You're wrong. Trans people don't have unbalanced hormones, they have normal amounts of the wrong hormones, both as teens and adults. Puberty causes irreversible physical effects with lifelong psychological harms, and forcing more of the wrong hormones is even more harmful. And in the vast majority of cases, people during and after puberty who are harmed by natal hormones, continue to be harmed by them throughout their adulthood, and regret going through natal puberty (not hormone replacement therapy). You don't know better than trans people what their needs are, and you demonstrably don't even know what trans people are (given that you think they need extra hormones to be fertile), so stop trying to convince people to poison them by overdosing them on hormones which will cause bodily changes (skeletal changes, voice dysphoria, hair loss) that traumatize them for the rest of their life. As for whether preserving fertility (banking sperm or eggs) before starting hormones (as teens or adults) is a worthwhile tradeoff on an individual level, that's a choice for an individual to make. In no circumstances is it not abuse to force more of natal hormones into a trans person already harmed by them.
polynomial 3y ago
It's a theory at least.
labster 3y ago
We know we are adding a lot of environmental estrogens. Establishing a causal relationship between that fact and human behavior is hard, and may or may not exist. Also I’m sure it would only explain part of the observed increase, since there are social factors at play.
- hnbad 3y ago
  There's a number of flaws with the "thesis" (to put it charitably): - Not every trans person experiences gender dysphoria - Trans people have existed historically and widespread non-binary gender identities have been observed in indigenous societies prior to modern pollution - There are men who take estrogen for health benefits and they generally don't report gender dysphoria or desire to transition - Men with low testosterone levels generally don't report gender dysphoria or desire to transition - There's no literature whatsoever suggesting any link between hormone levels or other endocrinologic factors and gender dysphoria or the desire to transition - Being openly trans was practically illegal and subject to mockery, harrassment and violence until fairly recently, even more so than being an openly gay man was - Due to the "underground" nature of trans identities, many elder trans people lacked the language or concepts to express their identity, instead landing on more socially acceptable identities (e.g. gay men or lesbians) or adopted labels like "transvestite" whereas young people are more likely to embrace identities under the queer, trans and non-binary umbrella - While society and the law has become a lot more accepting of queer and trans identities, access to mental health and medical care like hormone treatments and surgery is often gatekept to "protect" people seeking it (with the implication being that they are likely wrong about thinking they need it) and a diagnosis of "gender dysphoria" is usually one of the most reliable ways to gain access to these even when it doesn't accurately describe the person's experience ("autogynophilia" is the mirror version of this where "gender euphoria" specifically for trans women when allowed to express themselves as women is medicalized and framed as a sexual fetish to delegtimize it) For the record, I'm not trans but I know and have spoken to trans people in my personal life and have read a lot about it from "both sides".
  - silisili 3y ago
    Your arguments would be more effective if you provided respected sources for each. As a passerby, some don't pass my smell test, but I'm always willing to learn.
hnbad 3y ago
Sure. And the growth of the movie industry gave rise to left-handedness. The movie industry started to boom in the early 1900s, which is precisely when left-handedness rates skyrocketed: https://i0.wp.com/slowrevealgraphs.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/screen-shot-2021-11-08-at-9.37.02-pm.png https://i0.wp.com/slowrevealgraphs.com/wp-content/uploads/20...
baz00 3y ago
[flagged]
- zo1 3y ago
  [flagged]
- veavo 3y ago
  While I agree with you in principle, having your balls cut off does not sound like an easy thing to go through.
  - baz00 3y ago
    If it's any consolation I know someone who went through that and now wants them back. Ergo, there are problems if you go through that too. Perhaps it's too easy to do it...
    - ryan-c 3y ago
      All surgeries have regret rates. Gender affirming surgeries are one of the lowest at 1-2%. Access to such surgeries is already difficult, people almost always have to wait a year or more and have multiple psych evals. I know several people who have regrets despite being 100% trans - they just would have preferred options that were not available at the time. There are also people who aren't trans that get surgery to change their genitals, and are delighted with results. There are more things in sex and gender than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
      - baz00 3y ago
        Mine is not a philosophy. I'm closely related to someone who has to deal with the fall out of such procedures. The standards being met for surgery are fairly low and the psych evaluations are not always conclusive.
        ryan-c 3y ago
        The optimal regret rate is greater than zero. (regret is the result of "false positives" which are obviously harmful, but "false negatives" are harmful too, probably more so - balance is required)
junek 3y ago
Nah, trans people have been around a lot longer than this. It's more like left-handedness (or good old homosexuality), in that the rate of incidence is not increasing but rather that social repression has backed off slightly and people feel a bit more confident being out. People can be a bit more open about their gender when they're less afraid of being killed for it.
- dxuh 3y ago
  I agree with you, but as far as I know there is a large gender imbalance (Female to Male is much more common than Male to Female - almost twice as common). How would you explain that?
  - krig 3y ago
    I don’t have any research to back this up but I am willing to bet that this is more due to social stigma than any genetic component.
  - ljf 3y ago
    Society is largely still more accepting of Female to Male transition, than Male to Female. Plus the gendered power balance might leave more people adverse to making the shift in public. I would also 'guess' that those who transition and dress moving from female to male, can 'pass' more easily in society. Even if someone still has female features, if they dress like a guy, no one cares.
- lelanthran 3y ago
  > Nah, trans people have been around a lot longer than this. He didn't say that they weren't :-/
- logicchains 3y ago
  > in that the rate of incidence is not increasing but rather that social repression has backed off slightly and people feel a bit more confident being out. What evidence are you basing this statement on?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
newaccount74 3y ago
I think the problem is that popular culture is increasingly moving towards hyper-masculine and hyper-feminine stereotypes. So people who don't fit the mould end up feeling that they aren't a "real" man/woman.
zarzavat 3y ago
The current gender zeitgeist is mostly confined to the western cultural sphere. If it were a biochemical phenomenon you would expect to see it happening everywhere. Personally I think that the way the media talks about the male half of the population is responsible. Nobody ever says anything good about men, the male brand has become as toxic as Enron, and some people don’t want to be associated with it anymore.
- euroderf 3y ago
  If gender is largely a social construction then probably gender dysphoria is too.
- local_person 3y ago
  [dead]
- jklinger410 3y ago
  > If it were a biochemical phenomenon you would expect to see it happening everywhere. You actually do see it happening everywhere.
local_person 3y ago
[dead]
nonethewiser 3y ago
Seems plausible. But social environment is obviously a major factor too. Some of the recent uptrend is likely learned.

I feel like burning some karma, so here's an unpopular opinion: the recent rise of gender dysphoria can be explained by the increasing endocrine disruptor load of the younger generations.

verisimi 3y ago

[flagged]

ljf 3y ago
Gender dysphoria is not about lacking a hormone. People born a man with 100 percent of the testosterone they 'should' have, can still have a total need to transition to Female. Giving them more testosterone won't help.
- hypertele-Xii 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - begett 3y ago
    [flagged]
- verisimi 3y ago
  No. Testosterone in men has drastically declined. It used to be ~50% higher than today. https://testosteronedecline.com/testosterone-levels-100-years-ago/ https://testosteronedecline.com/testosterone-levels-100-year... > As you can see, average testosterone in the USA was something like 625 ng/dl in the 70’s, until the early 80’s. This is reasonably high testosterone. But since then it has been falling steadily. > For the average American man in the period of 2013 – 2016, testosterone was 420 ng/dl. (source)
  - nyanpasu64 3y ago
    The reason trans people suffer with their natal puberty and hormones is not because they aren't receiving enough hormone, but because they're receiving the wrong hormones which disrupt the brain and/or cause undesired sexual characteristics (including bodily proportions and bone/fat distribution) which cause existential mental distress. Giving extra testosterone to men with low testosterone may help, but giving extra testosterone to trans women forced through a male puberty is psychological and physical abuse.
    - verisimi 3y ago
      But giving hormones to children (who may not recognise the future repercussions of their childhood decisions) to prevent puberty etc is not psychological or physical abuse? How is that not active, literal abuse? The suggestion I'm making is therapeutic - it is supportive of the biology of the person who is suffering with a unbalanced hormones. At the end of the treatment I propose, it remains a possibility that the person can live a normal life, being able to reproduce etc - as opposed to becoming sterilised.
      - nyanpasu64 3y ago
        You're wrong. Trans people don't have unbalanced hormones, they have normal amounts of the wrong hormones, both as teens and adults. Puberty causes irreversible physical effects with lifelong psychological harms, and forcing more of the wrong hormones is even more harmful. And in the vast majority of cases, people during and after puberty who are harmed by natal hormones, continue to be harmed by them throughout their adulthood, and regret going through natal puberty (not hormone replacement therapy). You don't know better than trans people what their needs are, and you demonstrably don't even know what trans people are (given that you think they need extra hormones to be fertile), so stop trying to convince people to poison them by overdosing them on hormones which will cause bodily changes (skeletal changes, voice dysphoria, hair loss) that traumatize them for the rest of their life. As for whether preserving fertility (banking sperm or eggs) before starting hormones (as teens or adults) is a worthwhile tradeoff on an individual level, that's a choice for an individual to make. In no circumstances is it not abuse to force more of natal hormones into a trans person already harmed by them.

polynomial 3y ago

It's a theory at least.

labster 3y ago

We know we are adding a lot of environmental estrogens. Establishing a causal relationship between that fact and human behavior is hard, and may or may not exist. Also I’m sure it would only explain part of the observed increase, since there are social factors at play.

hnbad 3y ago
There's a number of flaws with the "thesis" (to put it charitably): - Not every trans person experiences gender dysphoria - Trans people have existed historically and widespread non-binary gender identities have been observed in indigenous societies prior to modern pollution - There are men who take estrogen for health benefits and they generally don't report gender dysphoria or desire to transition - Men with low testosterone levels generally don't report gender dysphoria or desire to transition - There's no literature whatsoever suggesting any link between hormone levels or other endocrinologic factors and gender dysphoria or the desire to transition - Being openly trans was practically illegal and subject to mockery, harrassment and violence until fairly recently, even more so than being an openly gay man was - Due to the "underground" nature of trans identities, many elder trans people lacked the language or concepts to express their identity, instead landing on more socially acceptable identities (e.g. gay men or lesbians) or adopted labels like "transvestite" whereas young people are more likely to embrace identities under the queer, trans and non-binary umbrella - While society and the law has become a lot more accepting of queer and trans identities, access to mental health and medical care like hormone treatments and surgery is often gatekept to "protect" people seeking it (with the implication being that they are likely wrong about thinking they need it) and a diagnosis of "gender dysphoria" is usually one of the most reliable ways to gain access to these even when it doesn't accurately describe the person's experience ("autogynophilia" is the mirror version of this where "gender euphoria" specifically for trans women when allowed to express themselves as women is medicalized and framed as a sexual fetish to delegtimize it) For the record, I'm not trans but I know and have spoken to trans people in my personal life and have read a lot about it from "both sides".
- silisili 3y ago
  Your arguments would be more effective if you provided respected sources for each. As a passerby, some don't pass my smell test, but I'm always willing to learn.

hnbad 3y ago

Sure. And the growth of the movie industry gave rise to left-handedness. The movie industry started to boom in the early 1900s, which is precisely when left-handedness rates skyrocketed: https://i0.wp.com/slowrevealgraphs.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/screen-shot-2021-11-08-at-9.37.02-pm.png https://i0.wp.com/slowrevealgraphs.com/wp-content/uploads/20...

baz00 3y ago

[flagged]

zo1 3y ago
[flagged]
veavo 3y ago
While I agree with you in principle, having your balls cut off does not sound like an easy thing to go through.
- baz00 3y ago
  If it's any consolation I know someone who went through that and now wants them back. Ergo, there are problems if you go through that too. Perhaps it's too easy to do it...
  - ryan-c 3y ago
    All surgeries have regret rates. Gender affirming surgeries are one of the lowest at 1-2%. Access to such surgeries is already difficult, people almost always have to wait a year or more and have multiple psych evals. I know several people who have regrets despite being 100% trans - they just would have preferred options that were not available at the time. There are also people who aren't trans that get surgery to change their genitals, and are delighted with results. There are more things in sex and gender than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
    - baz00 3y ago
      Mine is not a philosophy. I'm closely related to someone who has to deal with the fall out of such procedures. The standards being met for surgery are fairly low and the psych evaluations are not always conclusive.
      - ryan-c 3y ago
        The optimal regret rate is greater than zero. (regret is the result of "false positives" which are obviously harmful, but "false negatives" are harmful too, probably more so - balance is required)

junek 3y ago

Nah, trans people have been around a lot longer than this. It's more like left-handedness (or good old homosexuality), in that the rate of incidence is not increasing but rather that social repression has backed off slightly and people feel a bit more confident being out. People can be a bit more open about their gender when they're less afraid of being killed for it.

dxuh 3y ago
I agree with you, but as far as I know there is a large gender imbalance (Female to Male is much more common than Male to Female - almost twice as common). How would you explain that?
- krig 3y ago
  I don’t have any research to back this up but I am willing to bet that this is more due to social stigma than any genetic component.
- ljf 3y ago
  Society is largely still more accepting of Female to Male transition, than Male to Female. Plus the gendered power balance might leave more people adverse to making the shift in public. I would also 'guess' that those who transition and dress moving from female to male, can 'pass' more easily in society. Even if someone still has female features, if they dress like a guy, no one cares.
lelanthran 3y ago
> Nah, trans people have been around a lot longer than this. He didn't say that they weren't :-/
logicchains 3y ago
> in that the rate of incidence is not increasing but rather that social repression has backed off slightly and people feel a bit more confident being out. What evidence are you basing this statement on?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

newaccount74 3y ago

I think the problem is that popular culture is increasingly moving towards hyper-masculine and hyper-feminine stereotypes. So people who don't fit the mould end up feeling that they aren't a "real" man/woman.

zarzavat 3y ago

The current gender zeitgeist is mostly confined to the western cultural sphere. If it were a biochemical phenomenon you would expect to see it happening everywhere. Personally I think that the way the media talks about the male half of the population is responsible. Nobody ever says anything good about men, the male brand has become as toxic as Enron, and some people don’t want to be associated with it anymore.

euroderf 3y ago
If gender is largely a social construction then probably gender dysphoria is too.
local_person 3y ago
[dead]
jklinger410 3y ago
> If it were a biochemical phenomenon you would expect to see it happening everywhere. You actually do see it happening everywhere.

local_person 3y ago

[dead]

nonethewiser 3y ago

Seems plausible. But social environment is obviously a major factor too. Some of the recent uptrend is likely learned.