9 ms·

Something I heard a few years back put my life experience as a kid in perspective. At least for me, in the most important way possible, it doesn't sound like re

Something I heard a few years back put my life experience as a kid in perspective. At least for me, in the most important way possible, it doesn't sound like regular school at all. The main deep life impacting characteristic of standard public schools is coerced unwelcome company. You're forced by law to be around the same bullies for 5, 10, even 12 years. The natural order with organic friendships (and indeed probably since antiquity) is that those who act as a bully or jerk get ostracized. It is both justice and instructive for those who get excluded from one circle and must rethink their social approach to possible get accepted in another. It is how socialization is supposed to work. Parents won't force their kids to continue to be around others they dislike, schools are totally ok with the violation of right OTOH (basically if you have a right of free association you also have a right of non association btw).

dj_mc_merlin 3y ago
I'm unsure if you're saying that coerced unwelcome company is a good or a bad thing. While kids can be mean, it's just a reflection of humans in general and this kind of behaviour doesn't go away when you block it out. People get more mature but there's a lot of similarity between how people act in high school and in the work place, it's just a lot more skillfully and subtly done. Exposing kids to this reality doesn't seem bad to me.
- david-gpu 3y ago
  > Exposing kids to this reality doesn't seem bad to me. I hope your children don't get "exposed to this reality" in school, as you put it. The sorts of harrassment that school bullies inflict on their victims is, to put it simply, not tolerated anywhere else. Why should it be tolerated when it happens in school, where the victims have no choice but to attend every day?
  - WicWacWok 3y ago
    > The sorts of harrassment that school bullies inflict on their victims is, to put it simply, not tolerated anywhere else. Workplace bullying is fairly common too, it just follows the corporate hierarchy.
    - ThrowawayTestr 3y ago
      If my co-worker gave me a wedgie or beat me up during our lunch break I would have them arrested.
      - WicWacWok 3y ago
        Seems like a rather puerile form of bullying, no? With adults it looks much different. Mockery in front of peers, openly manipulative behavior, talking shit behind peoples' backs, etc etc
  - dj_mc_merlin 3y ago
    Is it good that children get bullied or ostracized? Obviously not. It is far preferable however to the alternative of never having experienced that humans can act like this. We're sometimes assholes to each other for poor animalistic reasons, and that's probably not going away in my lifetime. One should be prepared for other people to act like this. > Why should it be tolerated when it happens in school, where the victims have no choice but to attend every day? Since it's where they go to learn that this behaviour exists but is bad. You need to have lighter sanctions in order to teach people about behaviour without ruining their lives in the process.
    - scarmig 3y ago
      In real life, you can choose not to associate with the same person or clique 8 hours a day 5 days a week for thirteen years. Worst case scenario would be in a job situation, but here's the thing: you can find a new job. You can't find a new school. In public school, you can either report the abuse to an authority figure who has little or no ability to actually remedy the situation, or you can... sit there and suffer? Fight back? While outside of it, you have more ways to remedy a bad situation than "just make your abuser respect you."
    - laserlight 3y ago
      > It is far preferable however to the alternative of never having experienced that humans can act like this. Should we get our children bullied deliberately then? It is not necessary to be bullied to learn that humans can act like that. I've never been assaulted, for instance, but I know that it's possible and act accordingly.
- silverpepsi 3y ago
  I really disagree with all the comments that make reference to reality - no that is not at all what "reality" is. The fact of the matter is that as an adult, I can draw a line in the sand and either leave a job or report someone who is making the workplace hostile. I can have arguments with friends, but I can also decide certain friendships are over because they've passed a reasonable max threshold for toxicity. As a kid, you're repeatedly forced into situations where you dont have these same rights - in my experience. Schools try to trick you into thinking they're arbitrators above the law. They incentivize victims sucking it up, because if you get punched in the face at school, both parties involved will be suspended. However, it didn't strike me until I was in my 20s - this is all a trick - I could call the cops and press charges instead. One of the deceptions of my childhood anyway. Assault is a crime, school is not a special jurisdiction outside US law. The idea that anyone's circle of chosen friends is not reality to me is nuts, of course everyone faces some amount of conflict with friends. Why does it have to necessarily be conflict from someone you hate with all your being(at a public school) to train you for life? Someone who'll physically assault you? That seems like a made up arbitrary rule. I'm in my 40s and have yet to experience anything like what I did as a 11 year old in my adult life. what exact training for real life did I need that was so valuable to my future? etc.. School sucked!
  - dj_mc_merlin 3y ago
    > I can draw a line in the sand and either leave a job or report someone who is making the workplace hostile Because you have the money and possibility of acquiring another job relatively quickly (I suppose, otherwise you would not give up your survival means for such a reason). Not an option for everyone. > They incentivize victims sucking it up, because if you get punched in the face at school, both parties involved will be suspended. This part is stupid, I agree. When I got beaten up at school, I punched back and explained it after. The perpetrator ended up going to juvenile prison at some point (for unrelated charges). I wasn't punished in any way since that was seen as an appropriate response. So we had different experiences.
    - synecdoche 3y ago
      > Because you have the money and possibility of acquiring another job relatively quickly (I suppose, otherwise you would not give up your survival means for such a reason). Not an option for everyone. Workplace conflicts usually don’t involve assault. Lines are usually drawn by standing your ground, explaining one’s position and taking the chances and picking the battles. If it comes to getting assaulted one better be prepared. If the manager doesn’t agree one might get fired, or it is time to look for options. Nothing in life is a must, but there are consequences to everything and one better choose wisely. But then, the ability to make good judgements comes from experience and experience is gained by experiencing the consequences of decisions or choices one has made in the past, including bad ones. Resigning, from a position of employment, or situations in life in general should not be the first option, at least not without considering the above.
vasco 3y ago
Learning how to deal with adversity and dumb people was school's greatest gift. The world is full of both.
- CuriouslyC 3y ago
  Maybe your public school experience was mostly decent, but for a lot of people it's hell and it actively breeds misanthropy. You can learn to deal with stupid and difficult people without being exposed to soul poisoning doses of both.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    Can you? Because I don't think recent child development trends bear out children learning things in spite of being exposed to less of it. If it sucked, and the requirement for it to happen is removed, it simply doesn't happen. And the lessons that it taught remain unlearned.
    - CuriouslyC 3y ago
      Research shows that people learn well when there is the right amount of stress, and the right challenge. If the stress and challenge exceeds that amount it can quickly become destructive, which is what we see in your typical public school for any child who isn't primarily concerned with "fitting in." At best, public school is useful. At worst, it's a massive waste of time and absolutely destructive to a young psyche. You can expose your children to that massive asymmetry, but it's not necessary, people who cared got along just fine before public education, it's really there to uplift the lowest common denominator.
      - ethbr1 3y ago
        "Fitting in" is no small thing. The world would be better today if more people had the ability to empathize with someone not-them, sufficiently adjust their own way of interacting to put others at ease, and generally be less abrasive and fragile. And if we want to talk in absolutes... At best, public school provides an opportunity to learn socialization that cannot be replicated in a home environment. At worst, you get murdered.
Modified3019 3y ago
Exactly, while the appearance of a sufficiently modern homeschool can start to “rhyme” with public school for practical material reasons, in reality the underlying incentives are completely different. For me, it was charter schools that saved the day. The charter school teachers couldn’t just sit on their ass like public school teachers when some little shit decided to try to ruin my day.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
soligern 3y ago
That doesn’t sound right. For all of human history bullies who were bigger and stronger made the rules. The weak were ostracized. If anything, what you’re doing in homeschooling is reverting away from the norm and creating a sheltered environment. This is a double edged sword, you can turn your kids into fragile beings incapable of dealing with a harsh world but at the same time they will probably have productive, predictable and carefree childhoods. The best case scenario is to be rich enough so you can create a bubble for your kids that lasts from birth all the way to their graves. It’s very possible, all the wealthiest people do it.
- a-user-you-like 3y ago
  If you weren’t bullied growing up then maybe we can find some for you now, as you seem to be advocating this for kids.
  - soligern 3y ago
    Definitely not advocating for bullying, just pointing out that you can’t harken back to antiquity and call homeschooling a continuation of that paradigm in this particular sense.
- jprete 3y ago
  > That doesn’t sound right. For all of human history bullies who were bigger and stronger made the rules. The weak were ostracized. That requires more than a little bit of backup before using it as a basis for claiming that homeschooling is bad.
- rayiner 3y ago
  Bullying as in age-segregated schooling doesn’t exist in the real world. Adults and older children police any antisocial children, and the community of adults polices itself (because they’re adults and have mental faculties children lack).
- klntsky 3y ago
  > The best case scenario is to be rich enough so you can create a bubble for your kids that lasts from birth all the way to their graves You don't have to be extra rich for that. Just don't associate, that's the whole point. To avoid a bully it's enough to not go to the same building with him every weekday.
wvenable 3y ago
For some kids, going to school is the only escape from their bullies.
- t0bia_s 3y ago
  For many it is opposite. Going to school means meeting with their bullies.
paraknight 3y ago
I don't get it. Why can't bullying exist in the group homeschool at church? It's functionally equivalent to a school. Are you making a brand new point about traditional homeschooling (parent-child) or replying to the OP in the thread?
- labster 3y ago
  As a child in a public school, you have no right to freedom of association, and no right to freedom from association. Your school chooses your classes, and the state will use violence to ensure you attend those classes, bully or not. In home school, there is less people and more choice. There are no perverse incentives that value attendance over education and health.
  - jbigelow76 3y ago
    In home school, there is less people and more choice. Choice for whom, the student or the teacher? The teachers are the ones with the agendas, in all senses of the word.
    - whatshisface 3y ago
      No parent's agenda is for their child to be kicked around by another kid.
      - watwut 3y ago
        It routinely happens in families and friends groups of parents (kids of parents friend bully the kid). It the setup described above, the kid have less choice over who friends will be.
      - cma 3y ago
        School often serves as a release from parents' social machinations to let you find your own friends from a sampling of the general public.
      - Jka9rhnDJos 3y ago
Aeolun 3y ago
That just sounds like your schools suck. While I was _forced_ to be around the bullies. I was at the same time _forced_ to be around my friends.
- ethbr1 3y ago
  And I think most importantly, forced to make friends. An invaluable life skill.
dgb23 3y ago
I understand freedom of association as going both ways. I don’t think there’s a need for the term “freedom of non association”.
licebmi__at__ 3y ago
> Parents won't force their kids to continue to be around others they dislike Ha, you would be surprised. Parents will totally force kids to be around people they dislike. I mean my parents knew that I was bullied in my private, free association school. Even after one asshole pulled a knife on me and the school wouldn’t do a thing because he was from a rich family in my small town, they still decided to kept me in there because “it has good academic level/learning to deal with these people is good/kids will be kids/<insert other bullshit excuse>”. But hey, maybe you are right and free association is good. After all they kicked me out because of absenteeism when I decided to bail out of school because it was living hell.
- silverpepsi 3y ago
  I see the importance of any argument I'm making on being the best bet for 95% of humans. No policy governing humans is ever going to make imperfect humans perfect, but policies can and do go to far to where they're a detriment to a huge percentage It sounds like your parents were uncool or unreasonable and that sucks, sorry. But I think it's not objective to let it make you think all that was the norm as an adult. My parents were religious nuts. But as an adult I realized how lucky I was. They actually don't have any personality defects such as powerlusting or being egotistical about respect, so as a kid I very definitely avoided all the worst experiences kids often go through growing up with just the minor annoyance of forced bible studies or church visits (in perspective really an annoyance at worst)
softsound 3y ago
I can think of a guy who became a local bomber in my city who was homeschooled. He would put bombs into people's mailboxes or leave packages by their front door, my uncle's family knew them when they went to homecoming stuff together. He was eventually caught and arrested but idk homeschooling isn't for everyone. I worry sometimes how these kids will struggle when they are faced with the real world. Personally I loved going to a charter school and I was really excited we got to have extra large classes sometimes because you can't always fit all your friends in your grade in one class but for specific art classes we often tried too. My charter high school was really great, my college experience was definitely not... It was too small for one thing looking back now. Also won't ostracizing a bully make them more destructive? I know a lot of them become suicidal after a while and more destructive (based on experience understanding those I know better) they did get better though, they just didn't know how to process what they were going through.

dj_mc_merlin 3y ago

I'm unsure if you're saying that coerced unwelcome company is a good or a bad thing. While kids can be mean, it's just a reflection of humans in general and this kind of behaviour doesn't go away when you block it out. People get more mature but there's a lot of similarity between how people act in high school and in the work place, it's just a lot more skillfully and subtly done. Exposing kids to this reality doesn't seem bad to me.

david-gpu 3y ago
> Exposing kids to this reality doesn't seem bad to me. I hope your children don't get "exposed to this reality" in school, as you put it. The sorts of harrassment that school bullies inflict on their victims is, to put it simply, not tolerated anywhere else. Why should it be tolerated when it happens in school, where the victims have no choice but to attend every day?
- WicWacWok 3y ago
  > The sorts of harrassment that school bullies inflict on their victims is, to put it simply, not tolerated anywhere else. Workplace bullying is fairly common too, it just follows the corporate hierarchy.
  - ThrowawayTestr 3y ago
    If my co-worker gave me a wedgie or beat me up during our lunch break I would have them arrested.
    - WicWacWok 3y ago
      Seems like a rather puerile form of bullying, no? With adults it looks much different. Mockery in front of peers, openly manipulative behavior, talking shit behind peoples' backs, etc etc
- dj_mc_merlin 3y ago
  Is it good that children get bullied or ostracized? Obviously not. It is far preferable however to the alternative of never having experienced that humans can act like this. We're sometimes assholes to each other for poor animalistic reasons, and that's probably not going away in my lifetime. One should be prepared for other people to act like this. > Why should it be tolerated when it happens in school, where the victims have no choice but to attend every day? Since it's where they go to learn that this behaviour exists but is bad. You need to have lighter sanctions in order to teach people about behaviour without ruining their lives in the process.
  - scarmig 3y ago
    In real life, you can choose not to associate with the same person or clique 8 hours a day 5 days a week for thirteen years. Worst case scenario would be in a job situation, but here's the thing: you can find a new job. You can't find a new school. In public school, you can either report the abuse to an authority figure who has little or no ability to actually remedy the situation, or you can... sit there and suffer? Fight back? While outside of it, you have more ways to remedy a bad situation than "just make your abuser respect you."
  - laserlight 3y ago
    > It is far preferable however to the alternative of never having experienced that humans can act like this. Should we get our children bullied deliberately then? It is not necessary to be bullied to learn that humans can act like that. I've never been assaulted, for instance, but I know that it's possible and act accordingly.
silverpepsi 3y ago
I really disagree with all the comments that make reference to reality - no that is not at all what "reality" is. The fact of the matter is that as an adult, I can draw a line in the sand and either leave a job or report someone who is making the workplace hostile. I can have arguments with friends, but I can also decide certain friendships are over because they've passed a reasonable max threshold for toxicity. As a kid, you're repeatedly forced into situations where you dont have these same rights - in my experience. Schools try to trick you into thinking they're arbitrators above the law. They incentivize victims sucking it up, because if you get punched in the face at school, both parties involved will be suspended. However, it didn't strike me until I was in my 20s - this is all a trick - I could call the cops and press charges instead. One of the deceptions of my childhood anyway. Assault is a crime, school is not a special jurisdiction outside US law. The idea that anyone's circle of chosen friends is not reality to me is nuts, of course everyone faces some amount of conflict with friends. Why does it have to necessarily be conflict from someone you hate with all your being(at a public school) to train you for life? Someone who'll physically assault you? That seems like a made up arbitrary rule. I'm in my 40s and have yet to experience anything like what I did as a 11 year old in my adult life. what exact training for real life did I need that was so valuable to my future? etc.. School sucked!
- dj_mc_merlin 3y ago
  > I can draw a line in the sand and either leave a job or report someone who is making the workplace hostile Because you have the money and possibility of acquiring another job relatively quickly (I suppose, otherwise you would not give up your survival means for such a reason). Not an option for everyone. > They incentivize victims sucking it up, because if you get punched in the face at school, both parties involved will be suspended. This part is stupid, I agree. When I got beaten up at school, I punched back and explained it after. The perpetrator ended up going to juvenile prison at some point (for unrelated charges). I wasn't punished in any way since that was seen as an appropriate response. So we had different experiences.
  - synecdoche 3y ago
    > Because you have the money and possibility of acquiring another job relatively quickly (I suppose, otherwise you would not give up your survival means for such a reason). Not an option for everyone. Workplace conflicts usually don’t involve assault. Lines are usually drawn by standing your ground, explaining one’s position and taking the chances and picking the battles. If it comes to getting assaulted one better be prepared. If the manager doesn’t agree one might get fired, or it is time to look for options. Nothing in life is a must, but there are consequences to everything and one better choose wisely. But then, the ability to make good judgements comes from experience and experience is gained by experiencing the consequences of decisions or choices one has made in the past, including bad ones. Resigning, from a position of employment, or situations in life in general should not be the first option, at least not without considering the above.

vasco 3y ago

Learning how to deal with adversity and dumb people was school's greatest gift. The world is full of both.

CuriouslyC 3y ago
Maybe your public school experience was mostly decent, but for a lot of people it's hell and it actively breeds misanthropy. You can learn to deal with stupid and difficult people without being exposed to soul poisoning doses of both.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ethbr1 3y ago
  Can you? Because I don't think recent child development trends bear out children learning things in spite of being exposed to less of it. If it sucked, and the requirement for it to happen is removed, it simply doesn't happen. And the lessons that it taught remain unlearned.
  - CuriouslyC 3y ago
    Research shows that people learn well when there is the right amount of stress, and the right challenge. If the stress and challenge exceeds that amount it can quickly become destructive, which is what we see in your typical public school for any child who isn't primarily concerned with "fitting in." At best, public school is useful. At worst, it's a massive waste of time and absolutely destructive to a young psyche. You can expose your children to that massive asymmetry, but it's not necessary, people who cared got along just fine before public education, it's really there to uplift the lowest common denominator.
    - ethbr1 3y ago
      "Fitting in" is no small thing. The world would be better today if more people had the ability to empathize with someone not-them, sufficiently adjust their own way of interacting to put others at ease, and generally be less abrasive and fragile. And if we want to talk in absolutes... At best, public school provides an opportunity to learn socialization that cannot be replicated in a home environment. At worst, you get murdered.

Modified3019 3y ago

Exactly, while the appearance of a sufficiently modern homeschool can start to “rhyme” with public school for practical material reasons, in reality the underlying incentives are completely different. For me, it was charter schools that saved the day. The charter school teachers couldn’t just sit on their ass like public school teachers when some little shit decided to try to ruin my day.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

soligern 3y ago

That doesn’t sound right. For all of human history bullies who were bigger and stronger made the rules. The weak were ostracized. If anything, what you’re doing in homeschooling is reverting away from the norm and creating a sheltered environment. This is a double edged sword, you can turn your kids into fragile beings incapable of dealing with a harsh world but at the same time they will probably have productive, predictable and carefree childhoods. The best case scenario is to be rich enough so you can create a bubble for your kids that lasts from birth all the way to their graves. It’s very possible, all the wealthiest people do it.

a-user-you-like 3y ago
If you weren’t bullied growing up then maybe we can find some for you now, as you seem to be advocating this for kids.
- soligern 3y ago
  Definitely not advocating for bullying, just pointing out that you can’t harken back to antiquity and call homeschooling a continuation of that paradigm in this particular sense.
jprete 3y ago
> That doesn’t sound right. For all of human history bullies who were bigger and stronger made the rules. The weak were ostracized. That requires more than a little bit of backup before using it as a basis for claiming that homeschooling is bad.
rayiner 3y ago
Bullying as in age-segregated schooling doesn’t exist in the real world. Adults and older children police any antisocial children, and the community of adults polices itself (because they’re adults and have mental faculties children lack).
klntsky 3y ago
> The best case scenario is to be rich enough so you can create a bubble for your kids that lasts from birth all the way to their graves You don't have to be extra rich for that. Just don't associate, that's the whole point. To avoid a bully it's enough to not go to the same building with him every weekday.

wvenable 3y ago

For some kids, going to school is the only escape from their bullies.

t0bia_s 3y ago
For many it is opposite. Going to school means meeting with their bullies.

paraknight 3y ago

I don't get it. Why can't bullying exist in the group homeschool at church? It's functionally equivalent to a school. Are you making a brand new point about traditional homeschooling (parent-child) or replying to the OP in the thread?

labster 3y ago
As a child in a public school, you have no right to freedom of association, and no right to freedom from association. Your school chooses your classes, and the state will use violence to ensure you attend those classes, bully or not. In home school, there is less people and more choice. There are no perverse incentives that value attendance over education and health.
- jbigelow76 3y ago
  In home school, there is less people and more choice. Choice for whom, the student or the teacher? The teachers are the ones with the agendas, in all senses of the word.
  - whatshisface 3y ago
    No parent's agenda is for their child to be kicked around by another kid.
    - watwut 3y ago
      It routinely happens in families and friends groups of parents (kids of parents friend bully the kid). It the setup described above, the kid have less choice over who friends will be.
    - cma 3y ago
      School often serves as a release from parents' social machinations to let you find your own friends from a sampling of the general public.
    - Jka9rhnDJos 3y ago

Aeolun 3y ago

That just sounds like your schools suck. While I was _forced_ to be around the bullies. I was at the same time _forced_ to be around my friends.

ethbr1 3y ago
And I think most importantly, forced to make friends. An invaluable life skill.

dgb23 3y ago

I understand freedom of association as going both ways. I don’t think there’s a need for the term “freedom of non association”.

licebmi__at__ 3y ago

> Parents won't force their kids to continue to be around others they dislike Ha, you would be surprised. Parents will totally force kids to be around people they dislike. I mean my parents knew that I was bullied in my private, free association school. Even after one asshole pulled a knife on me and the school wouldn’t do a thing because he was from a rich family in my small town, they still decided to kept me in there because “it has good academic level/learning to deal with these people is good/kids will be kids/<insert other bullshit excuse>”. But hey, maybe you are right and free association is good. After all they kicked me out because of absenteeism when I decided to bail out of school because it was living hell.

silverpepsi 3y ago
I see the importance of any argument I'm making on being the best bet for 95% of humans. No policy governing humans is ever going to make imperfect humans perfect, but policies can and do go to far to where they're a detriment to a huge percentage It sounds like your parents were uncool or unreasonable and that sucks, sorry. But I think it's not objective to let it make you think all that was the norm as an adult. My parents were religious nuts. But as an adult I realized how lucky I was. They actually don't have any personality defects such as powerlusting or being egotistical about respect, so as a kid I very definitely avoided all the worst experiences kids often go through growing up with just the minor annoyance of forced bible studies or church visits (in perspective really an annoyance at worst)

softsound 3y ago

I can think of a guy who became a local bomber in my city who was homeschooled. He would put bombs into people's mailboxes or leave packages by their front door, my uncle's family knew them when they went to homecoming stuff together. He was eventually caught and arrested but idk homeschooling isn't for everyone. I worry sometimes how these kids will struggle when they are faced with the real world. Personally I loved going to a charter school and I was really excited we got to have extra large classes sometimes because you can't always fit all your friends in your grade in one class but for specific art classes we often tried too. My charter high school was really great, my college experience was definitely not... It was too small for one thing looking back now. Also won't ostracizing a bully make them more destructive? I know a lot of them become suicidal after a while and more destructive (based on experience understanding those I know better) they did get better though, they just didn't know how to process what they were going through.