6 ms·

The biggest problem with the setup you outlined is that the central government has no say in what is being taught to kids. So no matter how similar homeschoolin

The biggest problem with the setup you outlined is that the central government has no say in what is being taught to kids. So no matter how similar homeschooling will look to government-controlled schooling, people with power will never stop attacking it because of that crucial nuisance.

runnerup 3y ago
That depends on the state[0]. West Virginia appears to be the strictest, requiring homeschooled students to score above the median public school standardized assessment score. 0: https://responsiblehomeschooling.org/research/current-policy/assessment-intervention/ https://responsiblehomeschooling.org/research/current-policy...
whimsicalism 3y ago
It's also a ploy to avoid integrated schools, but I think we gave up on the Brown v. Board world a few decades ago. e: Not saying this is the reason but it is certainly the subtextual reason in the southern urban school district I lived in that a lot of kids were homeschooled.
whynotminot 3y ago
The “I don’t want the government perspective imposed on my children” is so funny to me as a homeschooling argument. Go to schoolboard meetings. Talk to your kids and their teachers. Understand what your kids are learning. If you feel a perspective is missing, fill in the gaps. Your kids will be better off for seeing different perspectives, understanding basic argumentation, and coming to their own conclusions. Oh this sounds like a lot of work? Well, the alternative, pulling them out of school and designing their entire education sounds like way more work than just being reasonably engaged?
- MrPatan 3y ago
  What if it's not about missing perspectives, but exposure to infohazards?
  - whynotminot 3y ago
    Explain this more to me. Presumably something so insidious you need to remove your child from even the possibility of being exposed to it. Perhaps, the existence of gay people?
    - mvnuweucxqokii 3y ago
      That's a strawman. The steelman version is something like the following chain of reasoning: (a) gender identity is something that everyone has that is distinct from sex, (b) with enough introspection, everyone can discover their true gender identity, (c) if you don't have a strongly felt gender identity, you need to introspect, (d) if introspection does not yield certainty then this suggests genderfluidity, or even worse that puberty ought be delayed until certainty is achieved. Or how about: an AMAB child playing with a Barbie doll often is strongly suggestive that he might actually be trans. Or how about: values like "being on time" or believing that a math problem has one correct answer are inherently white supremacist and racist. etc.
      - whynotminot 3y ago
        If this is the steel man god help this argument.
        mvnuweucxqokii 3y ago
        Just to be clear: are you saying the argument is bad because these things are never taught, or are you saying that these things are good to teach actually?
      - 0xcde4c3db 3y ago
        I see your "how about" and raise you a [citation needed].
        mvnuweucxqokii 3y ago
        That is a fair ask. To be honest, I am unwilling to devote to this discussion the time which would be required to research examples. I will concede that if these things never happened, I personally would find the infohazard argument non-compelling, though others may have their own feared infohazards. On the flip side, if hypothetically these were common ideas animating public school curricula and/or teacher behavior, would you consider that sufficient justification for homeschooling as being discussed here?
- novok 3y ago
  Uh have you even tried that or know anyone who has? If you have issues with the curriculum, its not getting changed. It’s often set at a state or federal level with a lot of committees and politics.
  - whynotminot 3y ago
    I am not suggesting parents change standardized curriculum every time they have a problem.
  - heavyset_go 3y ago
    States set guidelines but Boards of Education choose curricula for their districts.
    - whatshisface 3y ago
      Given how deeply some of those guidelines reach into what's on each test, the curricula are often distinguished by how they describe the same things.
- pfannkuchen 3y ago
  Are you suggesting that a single parent can meaningfully influence a public school curriculum? That is a ridiculous notion as far as I’m aware.
  - whynotminot 3y ago
    I’m saying you as a parent can talk to your kids and provide the missing perspective. I do not endorse the parents of todays worlds almost continuous crusade to change school curriculum in the face of things they disagree with. Provide context or alternative views to your kids where you feel is appropriate. Let them make their own choices.
    - pfannkuchen 3y ago
      Thanks for clarifying. One problem with this approach is that it is purely additive. What if people want to avoid something being taught? Prior to a certain age, children don’t really understand things in a cold and analytic way. The things they are told shape their moral beliefs and personality (which is why religions are always very controlling of schooling). So, they aren’t really “choosing” in the adult sense, it becomes more of a RNG for whether they will pick up the state selected value system or yours. Of course once a person is old enough they can and should be exposed to everything, to build context.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      You can’t raise children as if they’re little adults. They don’t have fully developed frontal cortexes until their late 20s: https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-teen-brain-7-things-to-know https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-teen-brain-... (“The brain finishes developing and maturing in the mid-to-late 20s. The part of the brain behind the forehead, called the prefrontal cortex, is one of the last parts to mature. This area is responsible for skills like planning, prioritizing, and making good decisions.”). This is science. The very nature of the human animal is that children must be socialized, rather than merely presented information and allowed to make up their own minds: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8Y8R8Lo/ https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8Y8R8Lo/
  - 3y ago
- giantg2 3y ago
  "The “I don’t want the government perspective imposed on my children” is so funny to me as a homeschooling argument." I think it's more the bureaucracy (which is a form of government perspective), and in some cases the lack of quality.
- LudwigNagasena 3y ago
  Does that line of thinking only apply to American public schools that teach values you like or would you suggest the same to Chinese, Russian and Iranian parents?
- Spooky23 3y ago
  The point is that there’s no reasonable - folks doing this have deeply expressed beliefs and if you disagree you’re evil. They only sound reasonable when speaking in general terms. I was a school board president of a catholic school that for the most part aligns with state and professional standards and added faith and cultural material not appropriate in a secular school. The kids get a solid education - We got “invaded” by some extremely conservative folks, funded by some organization who sought to move to a curriculum derived from a homeschool program where books centered (exclusively) around classic western texts. In the K-12 curriculum kids weren’t taught about Asia until WW2. Africa and India do not exist. They were also concerned with “woke” issues, like girls being allowed to wear pants. We were able to “beat” them, but it damaged the institution.
  - whynotminot 3y ago
    > The point is that there’s no reasonable - folks doing this have deeply expressed beliefs and if you disagree you’re evil. They only sound reasonable when speaking in general terms. This is such good point about why this conversation is so frustrating. Because in the abstract, if good faith could be assumed, there's a discussion to be had here. GP responded to me here being like "well what if they were Russian or Chinese schools" -- which does make you have to acknowledge "ok fine, if my kid were in North Korea maybe I would be really worried about what the local public school was teaching." And so you get duped into engaging on the merits. And then you dig just a tad deeper and find out that it's never a high-minded debate about pedagogy or state imposed perspective on like the role of the Federal Reserve or treatment of the Native Americans, it's always bat-shit stupid stuff about Creationism, banning woke books, and demagoguing over gays and trans people. It's so depressing.
    - Spooky23 3y ago
      You’re right. Right wing mass movements are never about high minded anything. It’s all lizard brain stuff. Get people angry about blather and they don’t notice their pockets getting picked. The good news is that there’s a history of these type of trends through history, and these movements burn out.
- rayiner 3y ago
  This overestimates the degree to which (1) children are rational beings; and (2) parental influence determines children’s outcomes. In fact, the biggest influence comes from a child’s peers: https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/a-matter-of-personality/202301/who-influences-teens-more-peers-or-family https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/a-matter-of-person... That’s why families who can afford it send their kids to private school, where their children’s peers are carefully curated. If you can’t afford that, homeschool is a compelling alternative.
- ddj231 3y ago
  This is far more nuance than I remember in public schools. At a young age there is quite a bit of rote memorization of facts. Sure parents can supplement their child’s education, but at the end of the day the child will be forced to adopt the schools viewpoint on certain perspective as the “correct” answer — or suffer in their grades
- Zetice 3y ago
  Try looking at this through the lens of a Native American parent circa 1880, and you may understand a bit better how these people feel. They’re wrong, but we can have sympathy for them, at least.
kiba 3y ago
So, the war is between state imposed ideology versus parental ideology, whatever the ideology might be? What if parental ideology are whacky? What then? Yes, state ideology can be whacky as well, but at least it is in the public and in the open where that can be challenged on a field, instead of uncontested at home.
- LudwigNagasena 3y ago
  If parental ideology is whacky, one family suffers. If state ideology is whacky, million families suffer. Including those who didn’t consent. What if someone can’t keep themselves healthy? Is it a good reason to regulate food consumption? What if someone is an alcoholic? Let’s introduce dry law?
  - sanp 3y ago
    In a democratic system, people can change the government.
sanp 3y ago
Why shouldn’t the government have a say in what is taught to children? Children are not their parent’s property. These are future citizens and I would prefer that society has a say in what is taught to them. In a democratic system the government represents the will of the society.
- lotsoweiners 3y ago
  Ok but I’d rather my kids have be raised understanding and influenced by their parent’s perspective so that they will influence society along those similarly into adulthood.
  - watwut 3y ago
    Yep, the whole point for many homeschooling parents is isolation of kids and ideological inctrination. We just don't think it is noble.
- sintaxi 3y ago
  Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what is for dinner.
  - raisedbyninjas 3y ago
    This hasn't been true in the U.S. for a century when the house reapportionment act was passed. Now the strongest voice the majority has is in the Senate. The body that was designed to give voice to the minority.
  - cma 3y ago
    Minor groups often have excess power from tie breaking between major factions.
- chasd00 3y ago
  You could have a point if the government operating at the local school level was the least bit competent let alone functional. And that’s the government, public schools are shockingly badly run. I have two in middle school and it’s one of the top magnets in DFW yet my wife and I still have to be on top of the school to the point we’ve hired an “advocate” for our kids. Basically, a consultant that makes sure the school keeps the law breaking to a minimum and the accommodations o e of our kids needs are actually made. If we had the option we would gladly homeschool but we don’t so off to the zoo every day..
datadrivenangel 3y ago
Homeschooled students are required to take standardized tests and meet certain scores.
mellavora 3y ago
> So no matter how similar homeschooling will look to government-controlled schooling, people with power will never stop attacking it because of that crucial nuisance. Just like in Florida, where teachers now face felony charges for having the wrong book in the classroom (not as required reading, just having it in the classroom). Yup, that's people with power attacking home-schooling for sure.
- user3939382 3y ago
  [flagged]
- jkhdigital 3y ago
  Can you cite the text of the law which motivates your hypothetical felony?
  - SamBam 3y ago
    "Any adult, not just a teacher, who knowingly provides a minor obscene material described in section 847.012(3), Florida Statues, could be prosecuted for a third-degree felony." > The statute 847.012 [...] also forbids subjects of racial issues and sexual orientation [1] > School officials in at least two counties, Manatee and Duval, have directed teachers this month to remove or wrap up their classroom libraries, according to records obtained by The Washington Post. The removals come in response to fresh guidance issued by the Florida Department of Education in mid-January, after the State Board of Education ruled that a law restricting the books a district may possess applies not only to schoolwide libraries but to teachers' classroom collections, too. [2] 1. https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/verify/florida-teacher-could-face-a-third-degree-felony-for-using-books-literature-in-class-not-approved-by-state/77-9f5a087f-8dcd-4a99-afe1-c9c23b6201cd https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/verify/florida-t... 2. https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/02/01/felony-charges-unapproved-books/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/02/01/felony-charges-unappr...
    - jkhdigital 3y ago
      This is the full text: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0800-0899/0847/Sections/0847.012.html http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Displ... There is no mention of “racial issues” or even sexual orientation here.
justin_kempton 3y ago
We were forced to homeschool our child due to Pandemic, and later, from desire for him to actually learn. It was eye opening! Schools are chaotic, and one of the biggest take aways for the child is conformity. In fact, I believe the entire institution of age based grades started in the militaristic state of Prussia. From the point of view of a state that needs soldiers, having standards and consistency is important. Individualism, and creativity are not very useful in a marching formation. And questioning authority, is equally frowned upon.
- dboreham 3y ago
  Scotland

runnerup 3y ago

That depends on the state[0]. West Virginia appears to be the strictest, requiring homeschooled students to score above the median public school standardized assessment score. 0: https://responsiblehomeschooling.org/research/current-policy/assessment-intervention/ https://responsiblehomeschooling.org/research/current-policy...

whimsicalism 3y ago

It's also a ploy to avoid integrated schools, but I think we gave up on the Brown v. Board world a few decades ago. e: Not saying this is the reason but it is certainly the subtextual reason in the southern urban school district I lived in that a lot of kids were homeschooled.

whynotminot 3y ago

The “I don’t want the government perspective imposed on my children” is so funny to me as a homeschooling argument. Go to schoolboard meetings. Talk to your kids and their teachers. Understand what your kids are learning. If you feel a perspective is missing, fill in the gaps. Your kids will be better off for seeing different perspectives, understanding basic argumentation, and coming to their own conclusions. Oh this sounds like a lot of work? Well, the alternative, pulling them out of school and designing their entire education sounds like way more work than just being reasonably engaged?

MrPatan 3y ago
What if it's not about missing perspectives, but exposure to infohazards?
- whynotminot 3y ago
  Explain this more to me. Presumably something so insidious you need to remove your child from even the possibility of being exposed to it. Perhaps, the existence of gay people?
  - mvnuweucxqokii 3y ago
    That's a strawman. The steelman version is something like the following chain of reasoning: (a) gender identity is something that everyone has that is distinct from sex, (b) with enough introspection, everyone can discover their true gender identity, (c) if you don't have a strongly felt gender identity, you need to introspect, (d) if introspection does not yield certainty then this suggests genderfluidity, or even worse that puberty ought be delayed until certainty is achieved. Or how about: an AMAB child playing with a Barbie doll often is strongly suggestive that he might actually be trans. Or how about: values like "being on time" or believing that a math problem has one correct answer are inherently white supremacist and racist. etc.
    - whynotminot 3y ago
      If this is the steel man god help this argument.
      - mvnuweucxqokii 3y ago
        Just to be clear: are you saying the argument is bad because these things are never taught, or are you saying that these things are good to teach actually?
    - 0xcde4c3db 3y ago
      I see your "how about" and raise you a [citation needed].
      - mvnuweucxqokii 3y ago
        That is a fair ask. To be honest, I am unwilling to devote to this discussion the time which would be required to research examples. I will concede that if these things never happened, I personally would find the infohazard argument non-compelling, though others may have their own feared infohazards. On the flip side, if hypothetically these were common ideas animating public school curricula and/or teacher behavior, would you consider that sufficient justification for homeschooling as being discussed here?
novok 3y ago
Uh have you even tried that or know anyone who has? If you have issues with the curriculum, its not getting changed. It’s often set at a state or federal level with a lot of committees and politics.
- whynotminot 3y ago
  I am not suggesting parents change standardized curriculum every time they have a problem.
- heavyset_go 3y ago
  States set guidelines but Boards of Education choose curricula for their districts.
  - whatshisface 3y ago
    Given how deeply some of those guidelines reach into what's on each test, the curricula are often distinguished by how they describe the same things.
pfannkuchen 3y ago
Are you suggesting that a single parent can meaningfully influence a public school curriculum? That is a ridiculous notion as far as I’m aware.
- whynotminot 3y ago
  I’m saying you as a parent can talk to your kids and provide the missing perspective. I do not endorse the parents of todays worlds almost continuous crusade to change school curriculum in the face of things they disagree with. Provide context or alternative views to your kids where you feel is appropriate. Let them make their own choices.
  - pfannkuchen 3y ago
    Thanks for clarifying. One problem with this approach is that it is purely additive. What if people want to avoid something being taught? Prior to a certain age, children don’t really understand things in a cold and analytic way. The things they are told shape their moral beliefs and personality (which is why religions are always very controlling of schooling). So, they aren’t really “choosing” in the adult sense, it becomes more of a RNG for whether they will pick up the state selected value system or yours. Of course once a person is old enough they can and should be exposed to everything, to build context.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    You can’t raise children as if they’re little adults. They don’t have fully developed frontal cortexes until their late 20s: https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-teen-brain-7-things-to-know https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-teen-brain-... (“The brain finishes developing and maturing in the mid-to-late 20s. The part of the brain behind the forehead, called the prefrontal cortex, is one of the last parts to mature. This area is responsible for skills like planning, prioritizing, and making good decisions.”). This is science. The very nature of the human animal is that children must be socialized, rather than merely presented information and allowed to make up their own minds: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8Y8R8Lo/ https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8Y8R8Lo/
- 3y ago
giantg2 3y ago
"The “I don’t want the government perspective imposed on my children” is so funny to me as a homeschooling argument." I think it's more the bureaucracy (which is a form of government perspective), and in some cases the lack of quality.
LudwigNagasena 3y ago
Does that line of thinking only apply to American public schools that teach values you like or would you suggest the same to Chinese, Russian and Iranian parents?
Spooky23 3y ago
The point is that there’s no reasonable - folks doing this have deeply expressed beliefs and if you disagree you’re evil. They only sound reasonable when speaking in general terms. I was a school board president of a catholic school that for the most part aligns with state and professional standards and added faith and cultural material not appropriate in a secular school. The kids get a solid education - We got “invaded” by some extremely conservative folks, funded by some organization who sought to move to a curriculum derived from a homeschool program where books centered (exclusively) around classic western texts. In the K-12 curriculum kids weren’t taught about Asia until WW2. Africa and India do not exist. They were also concerned with “woke” issues, like girls being allowed to wear pants. We were able to “beat” them, but it damaged the institution.
- whynotminot 3y ago
  > The point is that there’s no reasonable - folks doing this have deeply expressed beliefs and if you disagree you’re evil. They only sound reasonable when speaking in general terms. This is such good point about why this conversation is so frustrating. Because in the abstract, if good faith could be assumed, there's a discussion to be had here. GP responded to me here being like "well what if they were Russian or Chinese schools" -- which does make you have to acknowledge "ok fine, if my kid were in North Korea maybe I would be really worried about what the local public school was teaching." And so you get duped into engaging on the merits. And then you dig just a tad deeper and find out that it's never a high-minded debate about pedagogy or state imposed perspective on like the role of the Federal Reserve or treatment of the Native Americans, it's always bat-shit stupid stuff about Creationism, banning woke books, and demagoguing over gays and trans people. It's so depressing.
  - Spooky23 3y ago
    You’re right. Right wing mass movements are never about high minded anything. It’s all lizard brain stuff. Get people angry about blather and they don’t notice their pockets getting picked. The good news is that there’s a history of these type of trends through history, and these movements burn out.
rayiner 3y ago
This overestimates the degree to which (1) children are rational beings; and (2) parental influence determines children’s outcomes. In fact, the biggest influence comes from a child’s peers: https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/a-matter-of-personality/202301/who-influences-teens-more-peers-or-family https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/a-matter-of-person... That’s why families who can afford it send their kids to private school, where their children’s peers are carefully curated. If you can’t afford that, homeschool is a compelling alternative.
ddj231 3y ago
This is far more nuance than I remember in public schools. At a young age there is quite a bit of rote memorization of facts. Sure parents can supplement their child’s education, but at the end of the day the child will be forced to adopt the schools viewpoint on certain perspective as the “correct” answer — or suffer in their grades
Zetice 3y ago
Try looking at this through the lens of a Native American parent circa 1880, and you may understand a bit better how these people feel. They’re wrong, but we can have sympathy for them, at least.

kiba 3y ago

So, the war is between state imposed ideology versus parental ideology, whatever the ideology might be? What if parental ideology are whacky? What then? Yes, state ideology can be whacky as well, but at least it is in the public and in the open where that can be challenged on a field, instead of uncontested at home.

LudwigNagasena 3y ago
If parental ideology is whacky, one family suffers. If state ideology is whacky, million families suffer. Including those who didn’t consent. What if someone can’t keep themselves healthy? Is it a good reason to regulate food consumption? What if someone is an alcoholic? Let’s introduce dry law?
- sanp 3y ago
  In a democratic system, people can change the government.

sanp 3y ago

Why shouldn’t the government have a say in what is taught to children? Children are not their parent’s property. These are future citizens and I would prefer that society has a say in what is taught to them. In a democratic system the government represents the will of the society.

lotsoweiners 3y ago
Ok but I’d rather my kids have be raised understanding and influenced by their parent’s perspective so that they will influence society along those similarly into adulthood.
- watwut 3y ago
  Yep, the whole point for many homeschooling parents is isolation of kids and ideological inctrination. We just don't think it is noble.
sintaxi 3y ago
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what is for dinner.
- raisedbyninjas 3y ago
  This hasn't been true in the U.S. for a century when the house reapportionment act was passed. Now the strongest voice the majority has is in the Senate. The body that was designed to give voice to the minority.
- cma 3y ago
  Minor groups often have excess power from tie breaking between major factions.
chasd00 3y ago
You could have a point if the government operating at the local school level was the least bit competent let alone functional. And that’s the government, public schools are shockingly badly run. I have two in middle school and it’s one of the top magnets in DFW yet my wife and I still have to be on top of the school to the point we’ve hired an “advocate” for our kids. Basically, a consultant that makes sure the school keeps the law breaking to a minimum and the accommodations o e of our kids needs are actually made. If we had the option we would gladly homeschool but we don’t so off to the zoo every day..

datadrivenangel 3y ago

Homeschooled students are required to take standardized tests and meet certain scores.

mellavora 3y ago

> So no matter how similar homeschooling will look to government-controlled schooling, people with power will never stop attacking it because of that crucial nuisance. Just like in Florida, where teachers now face felony charges for having the wrong book in the classroom (not as required reading, just having it in the classroom). Yup, that's people with power attacking home-schooling for sure.

user3939382 3y ago
[flagged]
jkhdigital 3y ago
Can you cite the text of the law which motivates your hypothetical felony?
- SamBam 3y ago
  "Any adult, not just a teacher, who knowingly provides a minor obscene material described in section 847.012(3), Florida Statues, could be prosecuted for a third-degree felony." > The statute 847.012 [...] also forbids subjects of racial issues and sexual orientation [1] > School officials in at least two counties, Manatee and Duval, have directed teachers this month to remove or wrap up their classroom libraries, according to records obtained by The Washington Post. The removals come in response to fresh guidance issued by the Florida Department of Education in mid-January, after the State Board of Education ruled that a law restricting the books a district may possess applies not only to schoolwide libraries but to teachers' classroom collections, too. [2] 1. https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/verify/florida-teacher-could-face-a-third-degree-felony-for-using-books-literature-in-class-not-approved-by-state/77-9f5a087f-8dcd-4a99-afe1-c9c23b6201cd https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/verify/florida-t... 2. https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/02/01/felony-charges-unapproved-books/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/02/01/felony-charges-unappr...
  - jkhdigital 3y ago
    This is the full text: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0800-0899/0847/Sections/0847.012.html http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Displ... There is no mention of “racial issues” or even sexual orientation here.

justin_kempton 3y ago

We were forced to homeschool our child due to Pandemic, and later, from desire for him to actually learn. It was eye opening! Schools are chaotic, and one of the biggest take aways for the child is conformity. In fact, I believe the entire institution of age based grades started in the militaristic state of Prussia. From the point of view of a state that needs soldiers, having standards and consistency is important. Individualism, and creativity are not very useful in a marching formation. And questioning authority, is equally frowned upon.

dboreham 3y ago
Scotland