4 ms·

Can someone explain in plain numbers how one mile of railroad can cost £396 million unless the whole thing is cutting through the city center?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
doublerabbit 3y ago
Corruption.
- franciscop 3y ago
  We at Spain are the (western Europeans) kings of corruption and we still build very cheap according to the article, so that doesn't explain it: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26014387 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26014387
  - nextos 3y ago
    Spain has a long tradition in civil engineering and is able to reach some of the lowest costs per km in multiple infrastructures, despite a difficult landscape, and execute complex projects well. Two things really help: * Government has an engineering corps that draft really detailed specs for all projects, and ensure compliance * Laws that allow confiscating land in the name of public interest The second item tends to be problematic in common law frameworks typical of the Anglosphere.
  - jasec57322 3y ago
    I'll explain it, since no other local has bothered to. In the UK, those who know don't call the so-called 'DfT - Department for Transport', we call it Department for Roads, because that's what it is. But those who actually know are not yet a majority. The majority think 'Dr Beeching' (an mere frontman), destroyed the railways, yet have never heard the name Ernest Marples. Since the Marples creature unleashed carnage decades ago, there hasn't been a single government in Westminster which has not been anti-railways. Nobody wants 'HS2'. The railway industry does not want it. The PR for it is ridiculous even by Unicorn-chaining HM Gov standards (see: Gareth Dennis), even the contractors admit its a farce. Not only does 'HS2' reflect the bigotry of UKpolitik against real civilised transport, but it reflects a much greater stagnation and overall decline in the 'yu-kay' formerly Great Britain.
DrBazza 3y ago
Hs2 is going through the most densely populated part of the Uk, and in tunnels. And in addition to queuing, we also seem to enjoy bureaucracy. There will have been a decade of planning employing dozens if not hundreds of people before a shovel is in the ground. Then of course every new station has to be ‘special’ in some way. So we pay some architects firm absurd amounts to use Tibetan Yak hair insulated, Alaskan larch clad stations for some weird Green box ticking exercise.
- ricardobeat 3y ago
  As the article points out, Japan is densely populated and builds at 1/4 of the cost. That alone cannot explain it.
  - DrBazza 3y ago
    We don’t do viaducts over streets or houses. We have to tunnel under tunnels, and so much bureaucracy. Newts on the site? Need to be moved. Some other animals? Need to wait a year to move them. Bats? Careful there. Well motivated neighbourhood group? Some sort of legal challenge. Protestors in tunnels that can’t be removed for months. The list is endless.
  - throwaway5959 3y ago
    Graft.
  - kmlx 3y ago
    > As the article points out, Japan is densely populated and builds at 1/4 of the cost. Japan has totally different regulatory, employment and procurement systems than anywhere in Europe.
    - chii 3y ago
      Looking at safety and operational outcomes, those differences in regulations don't seem to have a negative effect. So they're not sacrificing something for this efficiency it seems. So why doesn't europe or britain adopt these different regulations and make their own system more efficient?
bluescrn 3y ago
Decades of government trying to keep property prices pumped up to ridiculous levels
- DrBazza 3y ago
  Indeed. Ever increasing prices of UK property is desirable to keep entire sectors of the economy in work, most working with percentage fees of the property prices: estate agents, legal and conveyancing, house builders, plumbers, decorators, electricians and so on. And that doesn't cover other secondary effects like pensions investing in properties, landlords with huge portfolios, small 'investors' putting their savings into housing, and so on.
  - bluescrn 3y ago
    The main effect is that we've moved from a single average income being able to support a family to two incomes barely being able to cope. Soon it's going to need 3-4 incomes, and maybe relationships will have to move from couples/traditional families to 'polycules' sharing a home just to pay the bills.
erremerre 3y ago
You need to prove that the construction of the train is not going to affect negatively the area environmentally. This translates as, you need to dry boreholes along the place, take samples, send the samples to a laboratory, get the data, save the data, store the data, build a system that deals with the data (because different laboratories have different methods) standardise everything, and present the data. You need to do that every month or so. You need to make sure that the watercourses are suitable for fishes and other animals. 40 years ago, you had a watercourse, you threw a 200mm pvc pipe, call it a culvert and carry on. Now if you really want to preserve the watercourse you need a super oversized culvert that can contain the whole watercourse. But such a culvert is dangerous (people can go inside), so you need to install a grill. Now you need to study the flood risk of the culvert with a blocked grill. That is in addition to the multiple flood risk assessment that need to be done for a linear project, basically one for each watershed that it crosses. An what if the design changes for whatever reason, like not being compliant with the flood risk assessment? Oh you need to start again, and repeat everything. Plus in engineering, every time you change something in any of the steps, you need at least 4 pair of eyes to check the change. So the reason is bureaucracy. These rules are important, but in linear engineering projects, they do impose a high toll on the project price, because you need to make sure they comply on every mile of the project. That is from my point of view, I am pretty sure there are other stuff that increases the price.
- MichaelZuo 3y ago
  Spot on, a 2x increase in complexity can easily increase final cost by 20x in the real world, 5x by 50x, etc...
- 7952 3y ago
  It is just good design. But that includes a lot of things that cross traditional discipline boundaries. So there is a large communication overhead between different teams.
LightBug1 3y ago
Overpriced contracts given to political allies comes to mind. De rigueur for the UK ... even when peoples lives depend on the subject of those contracts. We're a rotten/ing country.
- DrBazza 3y ago
  If this were even remotely true, companies like Hitachi, Skanska, Bechtel and so on, would never have received contracts. Given that the contract bidding process is publicly recorded, you'd think the newspapers would be all over it if 'Overpriced contracts given to political allies'. A partial list: SCS JV: Skanska, Costain, Strabag. Align JV: Bouygues Travaux Publics, Sir Robert McAlpine and VolkerFitzpatrick. EKFB JV: Eiffage, Kier, Ferrovial, Bam Nuttall. A fuller list: https://www.building.co.uk/focus/which-construction-firms-have-landed-hs2-contracts-so-far/5101271.article https://www.building.co.uk/focus/which-construction-firms-ha...

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

doublerabbit 3y ago

Corruption.

franciscop 3y ago
We at Spain are the (western Europeans) kings of corruption and we still build very cheap according to the article, so that doesn't explain it: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26014387 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26014387
- nextos 3y ago
  Spain has a long tradition in civil engineering and is able to reach some of the lowest costs per km in multiple infrastructures, despite a difficult landscape, and execute complex projects well. Two things really help: * Government has an engineering corps that draft really detailed specs for all projects, and ensure compliance * Laws that allow confiscating land in the name of public interest The second item tends to be problematic in common law frameworks typical of the Anglosphere.
- jasec57322 3y ago
  I'll explain it, since no other local has bothered to. In the UK, those who know don't call the so-called 'DfT - Department for Transport', we call it Department for Roads, because that's what it is. But those who actually know are not yet a majority. The majority think 'Dr Beeching' (an mere frontman), destroyed the railways, yet have never heard the name Ernest Marples. Since the Marples creature unleashed carnage decades ago, there hasn't been a single government in Westminster which has not been anti-railways. Nobody wants 'HS2'. The railway industry does not want it. The PR for it is ridiculous even by Unicorn-chaining HM Gov standards (see: Gareth Dennis), even the contractors admit its a farce. Not only does 'HS2' reflect the bigotry of UKpolitik against real civilised transport, but it reflects a much greater stagnation and overall decline in the 'yu-kay' formerly Great Britain.

DrBazza 3y ago

Hs2 is going through the most densely populated part of the Uk, and in tunnels. And in addition to queuing, we also seem to enjoy bureaucracy. There will have been a decade of planning employing dozens if not hundreds of people before a shovel is in the ground. Then of course every new station has to be ‘special’ in some way. So we pay some architects firm absurd amounts to use Tibetan Yak hair insulated, Alaskan larch clad stations for some weird Green box ticking exercise.

ricardobeat 3y ago
As the article points out, Japan is densely populated and builds at 1/4 of the cost. That alone cannot explain it.
- DrBazza 3y ago
  We don’t do viaducts over streets or houses. We have to tunnel under tunnels, and so much bureaucracy. Newts on the site? Need to be moved. Some other animals? Need to wait a year to move them. Bats? Careful there. Well motivated neighbourhood group? Some sort of legal challenge. Protestors in tunnels that can’t be removed for months. The list is endless.
- throwaway5959 3y ago
  Graft.
- kmlx 3y ago
  > As the article points out, Japan is densely populated and builds at 1/4 of the cost. Japan has totally different regulatory, employment and procurement systems than anywhere in Europe.
  - chii 3y ago
    Looking at safety and operational outcomes, those differences in regulations don't seem to have a negative effect. So they're not sacrificing something for this efficiency it seems. So why doesn't europe or britain adopt these different regulations and make their own system more efficient?

bluescrn 3y ago

Decades of government trying to keep property prices pumped up to ridiculous levels

DrBazza 3y ago
Indeed. Ever increasing prices of UK property is desirable to keep entire sectors of the economy in work, most working with percentage fees of the property prices: estate agents, legal and conveyancing, house builders, plumbers, decorators, electricians and so on. And that doesn't cover other secondary effects like pensions investing in properties, landlords with huge portfolios, small 'investors' putting their savings into housing, and so on.
- bluescrn 3y ago
  The main effect is that we've moved from a single average income being able to support a family to two incomes barely being able to cope. Soon it's going to need 3-4 incomes, and maybe relationships will have to move from couples/traditional families to 'polycules' sharing a home just to pay the bills.

erremerre 3y ago

You need to prove that the construction of the train is not going to affect negatively the area environmentally. This translates as, you need to dry boreholes along the place, take samples, send the samples to a laboratory, get the data, save the data, store the data, build a system that deals with the data (because different laboratories have different methods) standardise everything, and present the data. You need to do that every month or so. You need to make sure that the watercourses are suitable for fishes and other animals. 40 years ago, you had a watercourse, you threw a 200mm pvc pipe, call it a culvert and carry on. Now if you really want to preserve the watercourse you need a super oversized culvert that can contain the whole watercourse. But such a culvert is dangerous (people can go inside), so you need to install a grill. Now you need to study the flood risk of the culvert with a blocked grill. That is in addition to the multiple flood risk assessment that need to be done for a linear project, basically one for each watershed that it crosses. An what if the design changes for whatever reason, like not being compliant with the flood risk assessment? Oh you need to start again, and repeat everything. Plus in engineering, every time you change something in any of the steps, you need at least 4 pair of eyes to check the change. So the reason is bureaucracy. These rules are important, but in linear engineering projects, they do impose a high toll on the project price, because you need to make sure they comply on every mile of the project. That is from my point of view, I am pretty sure there are other stuff that increases the price.

MichaelZuo 3y ago
Spot on, a 2x increase in complexity can easily increase final cost by 20x in the real world, 5x by 50x, etc...
7952 3y ago
It is just good design. But that includes a lot of things that cross traditional discipline boundaries. So there is a large communication overhead between different teams.

LightBug1 3y ago

Overpriced contracts given to political allies comes to mind. De rigueur for the UK ... even when peoples lives depend on the subject of those contracts. We're a rotten/ing country.

DrBazza 3y ago
If this were even remotely true, companies like Hitachi, Skanska, Bechtel and so on, would never have received contracts. Given that the contract bidding process is publicly recorded, you'd think the newspapers would be all over it if 'Overpriced contracts given to political allies'. A partial list: SCS JV: Skanska, Costain, Strabag. Align JV: Bouygues Travaux Publics, Sir Robert McAlpine and VolkerFitzpatrick. EKFB JV: Eiffage, Kier, Ferrovial, Bam Nuttall. A fuller list: https://www.building.co.uk/focus/which-construction-firms-have-landed-hs2-contracts-so-far/5101271.article https://www.building.co.uk/focus/which-construction-firms-ha...