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The argument about lack of socialization from failure to attend public school might have some basis. But thinking back, I came out of the public schools with s

The argument about lack of socialization from failure to attend public school might have some basis. But thinking back, I came out of the public schools with some pretty anti social behaviors and attitudes that I picked up there. Being cool is so important at that age in that setting. I often wonder what life would have been like had I been taken out say, age 12 or 13 and given a more solid education to match my natural inclinations away from the cruelty, the misbehavior and the general time wasting that characterizes much of public school in the US. Kuddos to you for putting in the effort to give your kids the best possible real education. It has to be a lot of work.

ryandrake 3y ago
Is public school really that cruel these days? I have a 10 year old, and everyone in her class seems so wholesome and... exceedingly tolerant for lack of a better phrase. Compared to when I was a 10 year old where public school was a Lord Of The Flies thunderdome with bullying, and shoving people into lockers, and fights, and in-groups and out-groups and nerds vs. jocks, all the cruel 80s stereotypes. Sure, there's the occasional story of extreme bullying that happens to make the news, but it seems like these are far outliers these days. I see absolutely zero need to pull her out. The academics are ok--not what an expensive private school might offer, but they track well with what I was learning at that age. The social/institutional environment is much better than when I was a kid. The few parents I know who homeschool (admittedly, mostly from my wife's church group) do so for religious separatism reasons, not for educational outcome. They object to public school on ideological grounds and perceived "indoctrination," not on the academics.
- ufmace 3y ago
  It's probably impossible to generalize among all public schools. Some are and some aren't to various degrees depending on a thousand factors. The problem is more like, how do you realize if a particular public school class is bad and what are your practical options once you do.
- mythrwy 3y ago
  I don't know about today and don't have kids. This was in the late 70's/ 80's. It was as you say, Lord of The Flies indeed. Good to hear maybe it has improved. Or maybe the bullying is all online now. I'd like to point out, 10 years old isn't really in the thick of it yet. Might rethink your statement say, Junior year of high school.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  > Is public school really that cruel these days? This is a good question, but how am I supposed to find out the answer with any real certainty short of exposing my kids to it? Not really a sane option. "Hey, kiddo, go dance on the minefield and see if there are any left" isn't my style of parenting. > Sure, there's the occasional story of extreme bullying that happens to make the news, but it seems like these are far outliers these days. It's quite possible that the extremes are just the ones that make the news. The low-intensity torment is in my opinion just as traumatizing, but unless some parent raises a big stink about it then it usually doesn't even rise to the level of neighborhood gossip.
- 1123581321 3y ago
  Still lots of problems (more in middle and high school) but it’s easier to today to discover and move to where the schools are better. Homeschooling in areas with poor public schools tends to be focused on academics and a better environment although the desire to provide religious education exists everywhere. An area where few homeschooling families exist would probably have high graduation rates and low crime rates in its public schools.
- anon291 3y ago
  Excessive tolerance is a form of cruelty.
jawns 3y ago
That argument held sway with me for a long time, but not anymore. Our kids get a decent amount of socialization through all the activities they're involved in, and when other kids find out they're homeschooled, their response is more often genuine surprise rather than "Oh, that figures." The idea that kids learn social skills best by being thrown into a rigid, institutional environment surrounded by hundreds of other kids whose social skills are also far from developed is kinda silly, though. It's like saying criminals will reform themselves best by surrounding themselves with lots of other criminals.
- zerbinxx 3y ago
  One good thing about the rigid institutional environment, for better or worse, is that having exposure to that rigidity and institutional side of things can at least give kids some skills in the long run for navigating the anti-human organizations that form so much of our public and private sectors.
  - tomp 3y ago
    Almost all other societal structures are way less rigid and tyrannical. Name another institution where inmates have to ask for permission to go to the toilet, besides school and jail. Edit: or another institution where people can attack you and you can’t call police to help you.
    - acka 3y ago
      > Name another institution where inmates have to ask for permission to go to the toilet, besides school and jail. Busy call centers, fast food restaurants. Factories: assembly line workers. Chemical plants: process operators. I don't mean to be snarky but I think you would be surprised at the percentage of the population working jobs where they cannot simply leave their station without permission. > Edit: or another institution where people can attack you and you can’t call police to help you. The military: active duty personnel deployed to war zones.
    - fallingknife 3y ago
foogazi 3y ago
> Being cool is so important at that age in that setting. is it ? Maybe it just comes down to personality In my mind I was so uncool that the only way to win was not to play
- bawolff 3y ago
  > In my mind I was so uncool that the only way to win was not to play I mean, if you are thinking about it in those terms it sounds like it was pretty important.
roughly 3y ago
A relative is homeschooling their kids, and they’re not doing a great job of it academically, but those kids are some of the sweetest, most light hearted and caring kids I’ve ever been around. I learned some socialization at public school, sure. I also learned what it was to have a bureaucracy just roll over you because nobody involved cared enough to notice you were there. Those kids will have that experience eventually, but I’m all for delaying it.
- AlwaysRock 3y ago
  Being sweet or conforming to a parents/adults idea of what a good child should act like does not equate to good social skills. It means they understand how to act around adults, likely, because they are around their parents regularly and have that behavior engrained. That has nothing to do with their ability to socialize with their peers. This is a pretty common home school kid issue. Great with adults. Not great with other kids. Adults don't care because they are well behaved and the kids dont know how to vocalize that they have difficulties socializing with others their age.
hackerlight 3y ago
The socialization argument is nonsense. Schools as factory farms came first -- with no regard for socialization -- then the socialization argument was made later to rationalize it. Forcing kids (by constructing their environment in such a way) to have only relationships with kids that are precisely the same age as them is weird. Some healthy relationships with people who are a few years older in positive. Older kids/people need to be embedded in the social circle as role models. You get less bullying and should get faster social development. Homeschooling done right is more similar to how kids developed socially in our ancestral past (all the way up to a few hundred years ago). It's also more similar to how kids develop in much of the world outside of the West where larger family units are more tight knit.
- emodendroket 3y ago
  Yeah things were much better when most people were illiterate but Protestants had to go and mess it up with their ideas that people should be able to read.
enkid 3y ago
There is no and has never been any true evidence that home schooled kids are worse at socialization then the ones that go to a traditional school, at least as far as I can tell. It's a meme that people propagate because it is "common sense," but none of the studies I've looked at supports it.
- gemstones 3y ago
  I was homeschooled and the anecdotal evidence is overwhelming. Try finding adults who were homeschooled who speak fondly of the experience.
  - enkid 3y ago
    I have known several. I've also known an overwhelming number of people from public and private schools who hated those experiences.

ryandrake 3y ago

Is public school really that cruel these days? I have a 10 year old, and everyone in her class seems so wholesome and... exceedingly tolerant for lack of a better phrase. Compared to when I was a 10 year old where public school was a Lord Of The Flies thunderdome with bullying, and shoving people into lockers, and fights, and in-groups and out-groups and nerds vs. jocks, all the cruel 80s stereotypes. Sure, there's the occasional story of extreme bullying that happens to make the news, but it seems like these are far outliers these days. I see absolutely zero need to pull her out. The academics are ok--not what an expensive private school might offer, but they track well with what I was learning at that age. The social/institutional environment is much better than when I was a kid. The few parents I know who homeschool (admittedly, mostly from my wife's church group) do so for religious separatism reasons, not for educational outcome. They object to public school on ideological grounds and perceived "indoctrination," not on the academics.

ufmace 3y ago
It's probably impossible to generalize among all public schools. Some are and some aren't to various degrees depending on a thousand factors. The problem is more like, how do you realize if a particular public school class is bad and what are your practical options once you do.
mythrwy 3y ago
I don't know about today and don't have kids. This was in the late 70's/ 80's. It was as you say, Lord of The Flies indeed. Good to hear maybe it has improved. Or maybe the bullying is all online now. I'd like to point out, 10 years old isn't really in the thick of it yet. Might rethink your statement say, Junior year of high school.
NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
> Is public school really that cruel these days? This is a good question, but how am I supposed to find out the answer with any real certainty short of exposing my kids to it? Not really a sane option. "Hey, kiddo, go dance on the minefield and see if there are any left" isn't my style of parenting. > Sure, there's the occasional story of extreme bullying that happens to make the news, but it seems like these are far outliers these days. It's quite possible that the extremes are just the ones that make the news. The low-intensity torment is in my opinion just as traumatizing, but unless some parent raises a big stink about it then it usually doesn't even rise to the level of neighborhood gossip.
1123581321 3y ago
Still lots of problems (more in middle and high school) but it’s easier to today to discover and move to where the schools are better. Homeschooling in areas with poor public schools tends to be focused on academics and a better environment although the desire to provide religious education exists everywhere. An area where few homeschooling families exist would probably have high graduation rates and low crime rates in its public schools.
anon291 3y ago
Excessive tolerance is a form of cruelty.

jawns 3y ago

That argument held sway with me for a long time, but not anymore. Our kids get a decent amount of socialization through all the activities they're involved in, and when other kids find out they're homeschooled, their response is more often genuine surprise rather than "Oh, that figures." The idea that kids learn social skills best by being thrown into a rigid, institutional environment surrounded by hundreds of other kids whose social skills are also far from developed is kinda silly, though. It's like saying criminals will reform themselves best by surrounding themselves with lots of other criminals.

zerbinxx 3y ago
One good thing about the rigid institutional environment, for better or worse, is that having exposure to that rigidity and institutional side of things can at least give kids some skills in the long run for navigating the anti-human organizations that form so much of our public and private sectors.
- tomp 3y ago
  Almost all other societal structures are way less rigid and tyrannical. Name another institution where inmates have to ask for permission to go to the toilet, besides school and jail. Edit: or another institution where people can attack you and you can’t call police to help you.
  - acka 3y ago
    > Name another institution where inmates have to ask for permission to go to the toilet, besides school and jail. Busy call centers, fast food restaurants. Factories: assembly line workers. Chemical plants: process operators. I don't mean to be snarky but I think you would be surprised at the percentage of the population working jobs where they cannot simply leave their station without permission. > Edit: or another institution where people can attack you and you can’t call police to help you. The military: active duty personnel deployed to war zones.
  - fallingknife 3y ago

foogazi 3y ago

> Being cool is so important at that age in that setting. is it ? Maybe it just comes down to personality In my mind I was so uncool that the only way to win was not to play

bawolff 3y ago
> In my mind I was so uncool that the only way to win was not to play I mean, if you are thinking about it in those terms it sounds like it was pretty important.

roughly 3y ago

A relative is homeschooling their kids, and they’re not doing a great job of it academically, but those kids are some of the sweetest, most light hearted and caring kids I’ve ever been around. I learned some socialization at public school, sure. I also learned what it was to have a bureaucracy just roll over you because nobody involved cared enough to notice you were there. Those kids will have that experience eventually, but I’m all for delaying it.

AlwaysRock 3y ago
Being sweet or conforming to a parents/adults idea of what a good child should act like does not equate to good social skills. It means they understand how to act around adults, likely, because they are around their parents regularly and have that behavior engrained. That has nothing to do with their ability to socialize with their peers. This is a pretty common home school kid issue. Great with adults. Not great with other kids. Adults don't care because they are well behaved and the kids dont know how to vocalize that they have difficulties socializing with others their age.

hackerlight 3y ago

The socialization argument is nonsense. Schools as factory farms came first -- with no regard for socialization -- then the socialization argument was made later to rationalize it. Forcing kids (by constructing their environment in such a way) to have only relationships with kids that are precisely the same age as them is weird. Some healthy relationships with people who are a few years older in positive. Older kids/people need to be embedded in the social circle as role models. You get less bullying and should get faster social development. Homeschooling done right is more similar to how kids developed socially in our ancestral past (all the way up to a few hundred years ago). It's also more similar to how kids develop in much of the world outside of the West where larger family units are more tight knit.

emodendroket 3y ago
Yeah things were much better when most people were illiterate but Protestants had to go and mess it up with their ideas that people should be able to read.

enkid 3y ago

There is no and has never been any true evidence that home schooled kids are worse at socialization then the ones that go to a traditional school, at least as far as I can tell. It's a meme that people propagate because it is "common sense," but none of the studies I've looked at supports it.

gemstones 3y ago
I was homeschooled and the anecdotal evidence is overwhelming. Try finding adults who were homeschooled who speak fondly of the experience.
- enkid 3y ago
  I have known several. I've also known an overwhelming number of people from public and private schools who hated those experiences.