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There's an interesting discrepancy between two parts of this: > Flannery has purchased land from farmers for several times more than the market value and becom

by abeppu 3y ago

There's an interesting discrepancy between two parts of this: > Flannery has purchased land from farmers for several times more than the market value and become the biggest landowners in Solano county. > The firm has been sued by farmers who sold their land to the group over what the land owners describe as an “illegal price-fixing conspiracy”. If a group is buying land at multiples of the market value, you'd think the "price-fixing conspiracy" narrative would come from would-be buyers who were priced out, not from sellers.

bell-cot 3y ago
Theory (IANAL) - the conspiracy was the secrecy. If the final (say) 20% of the farmers had known, they would have been able to hold out for 10X their lands' previous market value. Or more.
starkparker 3y ago
That phrasing is wrong in the article. The firm is suing the farmers, as you intuited. https://www.agdaily.com/news/mysterious-company-sues-farmers-over-land-purchase-deal/ https://www.agdaily.com/news/mysterious-company-sues-farmers... > A mystery company that has been buying up farmland around Travis Air Force Base in California in recent years is now suing the farmers it bought the land from, accusing them of conspiring to inflate the value of their properties. > Lots of questions and speculation are floating around about the buyer, Flannery Associates, which has invested close to $1 billion to buy more than 50,000 acres farmland in the Jepson Prairie and Montezuma Hills area of Solano County. According to numerous reports, the company is filing suit for at least $510 million against the farmers. https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/some-california-landowners-fight-while-other-settle-510-mln-antitrust-lawsuit-2023-08-07/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/some-california-lan... > A lawsuit accusing a group of California landowners of conspiring to inflate the price of their land by hundreds of millions of dollars will "drastically expand" the reach of federal antitrust law if it is not dismissed, attorneys for the property holders told a U.S. judge. > In a filing in Sacramento federal court, lawyers for the landowners in northern California on Friday urged U.S. District Judge Troy Nunley to reject "speculative" and "vague" allegations from agricultural land buyer Flannery Associates. > Flannery, seeking more than $510 million in damages for alleged price-fixing, in May sued various family land trusts and estates over the sale of properties in the Jepson Prairie and Montezuma Hills area of Solano County between San Francisco and Sacramento.
- pphysch 3y ago
  What's the difference between price discovery and price fixing in this case? If you hear on the grapevine that a bunch of billionaires are keenly interested in buying a certain thing that you own, and willing to pay over current market prices, well... It's not like ALL of this land was simultaneously listed on a public market before the rich guys came up with their plan, right?
  - salawat 3y ago
    That's the rich for you. I'll pay you over market price to get the thing I want, then hire lawyers to sue you to recover what I paid or ensure it mostly goes to the local lawyers you'll have to hire to defend yourself. If moneybags comes, keep in mind: you don't have to sell. Moneybags, keep in mind: the price I'm willing to sell at is not price fixing. I just may not want to sell to you.
    - ffhhttt 3y ago
      > That's the rich for you It’s one group of very rich people (possibly) trying to screw over other rich people, though. > I just may not want to sell to you. You almost definitely do though. You just want more money because you know that the buyer doesn’t really have a choice.
      - frumper 3y ago
        Wanting a sell at a certain price doesn’t mean you want to sell at a lower price. The desire to sell is often directly correlated to the price. If someone offered me double for our families house, I’d sell. If they offer me slightly over market value I’d just hang up the phone. For most people there is a price, it’s probably not what an average buyer sees as a reasonable price if it’s not on the market.
  - scoofy 3y ago
    Deliberate wash sales to increase “market” price would be a trivial way to prove this. Otherwise it’s very speculative.
shihab 3y ago
> The purchases burst into public view this spring when lawyers for Flannery filed a lawsuit in U.S. District Court, accusing landowners of colluding to inflate prices. This is from the article linked.
Ekaros 3y ago
Wouldn't this entirely destroy any price discovery in market? So you could not sell for example stock for higher price if it goes up? If you hear that other people are selling it?

by abeppu 3y ago

bell-cot 3y ago

Theory (IANAL) - the conspiracy was the secrecy. If the final (say) 20% of the farmers had known, they would have been able to hold out for 10X their lands' previous market value. Or more.

starkparker 3y ago

That phrasing is wrong in the article. The firm is suing the farmers, as you intuited. https://www.agdaily.com/news/mysterious-company-sues-farmers-over-land-purchase-deal/ https://www.agdaily.com/news/mysterious-company-sues-farmers... > A mystery company that has been buying up farmland around Travis Air Force Base in California in recent years is now suing the farmers it bought the land from, accusing them of conspiring to inflate the value of their properties. > Lots of questions and speculation are floating around about the buyer, Flannery Associates, which has invested close to $1 billion to buy more than 50,000 acres farmland in the Jepson Prairie and Montezuma Hills area of Solano County. According to numerous reports, the company is filing suit for at least $510 million against the farmers. https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/some-california-landowners-fight-while-other-settle-510-mln-antitrust-lawsuit-2023-08-07/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/some-california-lan... > A lawsuit accusing a group of California landowners of conspiring to inflate the price of their land by hundreds of millions of dollars will "drastically expand" the reach of federal antitrust law if it is not dismissed, attorneys for the property holders told a U.S. judge. > In a filing in Sacramento federal court, lawyers for the landowners in northern California on Friday urged U.S. District Judge Troy Nunley to reject "speculative" and "vague" allegations from agricultural land buyer Flannery Associates. > Flannery, seeking more than $510 million in damages for alleged price-fixing, in May sued various family land trusts and estates over the sale of properties in the Jepson Prairie and Montezuma Hills area of Solano County between San Francisco and Sacramento.

pphysch 3y ago
What's the difference between price discovery and price fixing in this case? If you hear on the grapevine that a bunch of billionaires are keenly interested in buying a certain thing that you own, and willing to pay over current market prices, well... It's not like ALL of this land was simultaneously listed on a public market before the rich guys came up with their plan, right?
- salawat 3y ago
  That's the rich for you. I'll pay you over market price to get the thing I want, then hire lawyers to sue you to recover what I paid or ensure it mostly goes to the local lawyers you'll have to hire to defend yourself. If moneybags comes, keep in mind: you don't have to sell. Moneybags, keep in mind: the price I'm willing to sell at is not price fixing. I just may not want to sell to you.
  - ffhhttt 3y ago
    > That's the rich for you It’s one group of very rich people (possibly) trying to screw over other rich people, though. > I just may not want to sell to you. You almost definitely do though. You just want more money because you know that the buyer doesn’t really have a choice.
    - frumper 3y ago
      Wanting a sell at a certain price doesn’t mean you want to sell at a lower price. The desire to sell is often directly correlated to the price. If someone offered me double for our families house, I’d sell. If they offer me slightly over market value I’d just hang up the phone. For most people there is a price, it’s probably not what an average buyer sees as a reasonable price if it’s not on the market.
- scoofy 3y ago
  Deliberate wash sales to increase “market” price would be a trivial way to prove this. Otherwise it’s very speculative.

shihab 3y ago

> The purchases burst into public view this spring when lawyers for Flannery filed a lawsuit in U.S. District Court, accusing landowners of colluding to inflate prices. This is from the article linked.

Ekaros 3y ago

Wouldn't this entirely destroy any price discovery in market? So you could not sell for example stock for higher price if it goes up? If you hear that other people are selling it?