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> Explaining why this was way off-piste, the DoJ said in a statement yesterday: "Under these regulations, asylees, refugees, lawful permanent residents, US citi

by firtoz 3y ago

> Explaining why this was way off-piste, the DoJ said in a statement yesterday: "Under these regulations, asylees, refugees, lawful permanent residents, US citizens and US nationals working at US companies can access export-controlled items without authorization from the US government. Therefore, these laws do not require SpaceX to treat asylees and refugees differently than US citizens or green card holders."

ITAR_throwaway 3y ago
> Under these regulations ... lawful permanent residents ... can access export-controlled items without authorization from the US government. As someone who works on ITAR-regulated things, that is flat-out wrong.
- krisoft 3y ago
  The text of the law seems to disagree with you? § 120.62 U.S. person. U.S. person means a person who is a lawful permanent resident as defined by 8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(20) or who is a protected individual as defined by 8 U.S.C. 1324b(a)(3). And this seems to be interpreted by people[1] that employing lawful permanent residents does not need export authorisation. 1: https://exportcompliancesolutions.com/blog/2018/09/20/u-s-persons-include-just-citizens/ https://exportcompliancesolutions.com/blog/2018/09/20/u-s-pe...
fooker 3y ago
I am not saying the government has made a technical mistake, I'm saying the regulation is nonsense. Sneaking in spies as refugees is a fairly common strategy.
- subroutine 3y ago
  Yeah, a refugee who is also a highly qualified rocket scientist should raise some healthy suspicion at the least.
  - Nullabillity 3y ago
    Do you think rocket scientists are just… immune to war?
    - Detrytus 3y ago
      I think that rocket scientists are usually cherished by totalitarian regimes, not persecuted.
      - surfpel 3y ago
        That’s a narrow view of where refugees come from. Also doesn’t consider that they can become a talented rocket scientist after becoming a refugee.
      - throwaway290 3y ago
        If you are smart enough to be a rocket scientist you are more likely to be smart enough to see when your country is being ruled by thieves and going to the dogs. Either you hide it and leave ASAP, you don't hide it and try to change your country for the better (= jail, regime doesn't like people like that) or you suppress your conscience (or not have it) and enjoy a nice lifestyle. The last option is more rare because smart people are usually allergic to propaganda
        Detrytus 3y ago
        >> The last option is more rare because smart people are less susceptible to propaganda This is actually bullshit, you can easily manipulate smart person, by appealing to their perceived smartness :) Anyway, just because someone is smart does not mean that they are also highly moral. It's often like: give a person opportunity for professional growth ("you'll be working on our moon landing program") and they will sell their own mother. EDIT: tangentially related https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/apr/01/why-smart-people-are-more-likely-to-believe-fake-news https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/apr/01/why-smart-peop...
        3y ago
- ForHackernews 3y ago
  > Sneaking in spies as refugees is a fairly common strategy. Is it really? Are there any examples we can point to? Refugees are often dispossessed and struggling to build a new life. I guess if you want your spies to gather intelligence on what it's like to drive a cab or bus tables in your geopolitical adversaries, then it might be a great cover identity.
  - sakjur 3y ago
    I’d absolutely plant cab drivers to spy on my geopolitical adversaries. People who have a plausible explanation to be in and around hotels, airports, industrial areas, and a legitimate reason talk to lots of different people would seem like quite good candidates for spying. Maybe a bit too obvious.
    - psychphysic 3y ago
      They'd pick up absolute junk information.
      - Simon_O_Rourke 3y ago
        Absolutely, the amount of yarns I regularly spin to taxi drivers would bankrupt the credulous. My usual one being advice to invest heavily in manganese futures.
      - newsclues 3y ago
        99% would be. But 1% might be something useful.
    - baybal2 3y ago
      Countries indeed used cab drivers as spies, ie USSR
      - fooker 3y ago
        They absolutely did, even Russia does so. https://eng.lsm.lv/article/society/crime/18.08.2023-suspected-taxi-driving-russian-spy-detained-by-latvian-security-service.a520678/ https://eng.lsm.lv/article/society/crime/18.08.2023-suspecte...
elif 3y ago
Yeah... But spaceX does have to face the consequences if one of them ends up being a foreign intelligence asset. Seems like a reasonable precaution to me considering the stakes. Besides, they have the largest applicant pool of any company in the country. It's completely reasonable to believe this is purely a consequence of meritocracy and not even a conscious choice.
- iraqmtpizza 3y ago
  how much secret information is SpaceX really getting from the federal government? probably near nothing
  - kcplate 3y ago
    Well, they certainly know plenty more details about the military payloads they occasionally carry than the general public.
    - iraqmtpizza 3y ago
      probably not much more than you can tell by looking at it. there's no way to hide in space except by bringing your own cover. other than what it looks like, they know its mass, how to move it around, and how it physically separates from the launch vehicle. not particularly interesting
- krisoft 3y ago
  > they have the largest applicant pool of any company in the country. What do you mean by that? How would that be even possible with ITAR? > It's completely reasonable to believe this is purely a consequence of meritocracy and not even a conscious choice. How can it be “not even a conscious choice”? This is a large company. They train their HR people who they can or cannot hire. How can that training be “not even a conscious choice”?

by firtoz 3y ago

ITAR_throwaway 3y ago

> Under these regulations ... lawful permanent residents ... can access export-controlled items without authorization from the US government. As someone who works on ITAR-regulated things, that is flat-out wrong.

krisoft 3y ago
The text of the law seems to disagree with you? § 120.62 U.S. person. U.S. person means a person who is a lawful permanent resident as defined by 8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(20) or who is a protected individual as defined by 8 U.S.C. 1324b(a)(3). And this seems to be interpreted by people[1] that employing lawful permanent residents does not need export authorisation. 1: https://exportcompliancesolutions.com/blog/2018/09/20/u-s-persons-include-just-citizens/ https://exportcompliancesolutions.com/blog/2018/09/20/u-s-pe...

fooker 3y ago

I am not saying the government has made a technical mistake, I'm saying the regulation is nonsense. Sneaking in spies as refugees is a fairly common strategy.

subroutine 3y ago
Yeah, a refugee who is also a highly qualified rocket scientist should raise some healthy suspicion at the least.
- Nullabillity 3y ago
  Do you think rocket scientists are just… immune to war?
  - Detrytus 3y ago
    I think that rocket scientists are usually cherished by totalitarian regimes, not persecuted.
    - surfpel 3y ago
      That’s a narrow view of where refugees come from. Also doesn’t consider that they can become a talented rocket scientist after becoming a refugee.
    - throwaway290 3y ago
      If you are smart enough to be a rocket scientist you are more likely to be smart enough to see when your country is being ruled by thieves and going to the dogs. Either you hide it and leave ASAP, you don't hide it and try to change your country for the better (= jail, regime doesn't like people like that) or you suppress your conscience (or not have it) and enjoy a nice lifestyle. The last option is more rare because smart people are usually allergic to propaganda
      - Detrytus 3y ago
        >> The last option is more rare because smart people are less susceptible to propaganda This is actually bullshit, you can easily manipulate smart person, by appealing to their perceived smartness :) Anyway, just because someone is smart does not mean that they are also highly moral. It's often like: give a person opportunity for professional growth ("you'll be working on our moon landing program") and they will sell their own mother. EDIT: tangentially related https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/apr/01/why-smart-people-are-more-likely-to-believe-fake-news https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/apr/01/why-smart-peop...
        3y ago
ForHackernews 3y ago
> Sneaking in spies as refugees is a fairly common strategy. Is it really? Are there any examples we can point to? Refugees are often dispossessed and struggling to build a new life. I guess if you want your spies to gather intelligence on what it's like to drive a cab or bus tables in your geopolitical adversaries, then it might be a great cover identity.
- sakjur 3y ago
  I’d absolutely plant cab drivers to spy on my geopolitical adversaries. People who have a plausible explanation to be in and around hotels, airports, industrial areas, and a legitimate reason talk to lots of different people would seem like quite good candidates for spying. Maybe a bit too obvious.
  - psychphysic 3y ago
    They'd pick up absolute junk information.
    - Simon_O_Rourke 3y ago
      Absolutely, the amount of yarns I regularly spin to taxi drivers would bankrupt the credulous. My usual one being advice to invest heavily in manganese futures.
    - newsclues 3y ago
      99% would be. But 1% might be something useful.
  - baybal2 3y ago
    Countries indeed used cab drivers as spies, ie USSR
    - fooker 3y ago
      They absolutely did, even Russia does so. https://eng.lsm.lv/article/society/crime/18.08.2023-suspected-taxi-driving-russian-spy-detained-by-latvian-security-service.a520678/ https://eng.lsm.lv/article/society/crime/18.08.2023-suspecte...

elif 3y ago

Yeah... But spaceX does have to face the consequences if one of them ends up being a foreign intelligence asset. Seems like a reasonable precaution to me considering the stakes. Besides, they have the largest applicant pool of any company in the country. It's completely reasonable to believe this is purely a consequence of meritocracy and not even a conscious choice.

iraqmtpizza 3y ago
how much secret information is SpaceX really getting from the federal government? probably near nothing
- kcplate 3y ago
  Well, they certainly know plenty more details about the military payloads they occasionally carry than the general public.
  - iraqmtpizza 3y ago
    probably not much more than you can tell by looking at it. there's no way to hide in space except by bringing your own cover. other than what it looks like, they know its mass, how to move it around, and how it physically separates from the launch vehicle. not particularly interesting
krisoft 3y ago
> they have the largest applicant pool of any company in the country. What do you mean by that? How would that be even possible with ITAR? > It's completely reasonable to believe this is purely a consequence of meritocracy and not even a conscious choice. How can it be “not even a conscious choice”? This is a large company. They train their HR people who they can or cannot hire. How can that training be “not even a conscious choice”?