11 ms·
Uncle Sam accuses SpaceX of not considering asylees and refugees for employment
- fooker 3y agoMeanwhile 'Uncle Sam' will also not let SpaceX hire non-citizen PhDs from US universities. Sometimes it feels like various branches of the US government are set up to sabotage each other.
- propaganja 3y agoThe rabbit hole goes much deeper than that, and more believable by the day.
- firtoz 3y ago> Explaining why this was way off-piste, the DoJ said in a statement yesterday: "Under these regulations, asylees, refugees, lawful permanent residents, US citizens and US nationals working at US companies can access export-controlled items without authorization from the US government. Therefore, these laws do not require SpaceX to treat asylees and refugees differently than US citizens or green card holders."
- ITAR_throwaway 3y ago> Under these regulations ... lawful permanent residents ... can access export-controlled items without authorization from the US government. As someone who works on ITAR-regulated things, that is flat-out wrong.
- krisoft 3y agoThe text of the law seems to disagree with you? § 120.62 U.S. person. U.S. person means a person who is a lawful permanent resident as defined by 8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(20) or who is a protected individual as defined by 8 U.S.C. 1324b(a)(3). And this seems to be interpreted by people[1] that employing lawful permanent residents does not need export authorisation. 1: https://exportcompliancesolutions.com/blog/2018/09/20/u-s-persons-include-just-citizens/ https://exportcompliancesolutions.com/blog/2018/09/20/u-s-pe...
- fooker 3y agoI am not saying the government has made a technical mistake, I'm saying the regulation is nonsense. Sneaking in spies as refugees is a fairly common strategy.
- subroutine 3y agoYeah, a refugee who is also a highly qualified rocket scientist should raise some healthy suspicion at the least.
- Nullabillity 3y agoDo you think rocket scientists are just… immune to war?
- Detrytus 3y agoI think that rocket scientists are usually cherished by totalitarian regimes, not persecuted.
- surfpel 3y agoThat’s a narrow view of where refugees come from. Also doesn’t consider that they can become a talented rocket scientist after becoming a refugee.
- throwaway290 3y agoIf you are smart enough to be a rocket scientist you are more likely to be smart enough to see when your country is being ruled by thieves and going to the dogs. Either you hide it and leave ASAP, you don't hide it and try to change your country for the better (= jail, regime doesn't like people like that) or you suppress your conscience (or not have it) and enjoy a nice lifestyle. The last option is more rare because smart people are usually allergic to propaganda
- Detrytus 3y ago
- elif 3y agoYeah... But spaceX does have to face the consequences if one of them ends up being a foreign intelligence asset. Seems like a reasonable precaution to me considering the stakes. Besides, they have the largest applicant pool of any company in the country. It's completely reasonable to believe this is purely a consequence of meritocracy and not even a conscious choice.
- iraqmtpizza 3y agohow much secret information is SpaceX really getting from the federal government? probably near nothing
- kcplate 3y agoWell, they certainly know plenty more details about the military payloads they occasionally carry than the general public.
- iraqmtpizza 3y agoprobably not much more than you can tell by looking at it. there's no way to hide in space except by bringing your own cover. other than what it looks like, they know its mass, how to move it around, and how it physically separates from the launch vehicle. not particularly interesting
- krisoft 3y ago> they have the largest applicant pool of any company in the country. What do you mean by that? How would that be even possible with ITAR? > It's completely reasonable to believe this is purely a consequence of meritocracy and not even a conscious choice. How can it be “not even a conscious choice”? This is a large company. They train their HR people who they can or cannot hire. How can that training be “not even a conscious choice”?
- 1letterunixname 3y agoThe government isn't a hivemind, it's a "city" unto itself with different factions with different interests. Only when one awakens to this reality can one see what is going on is not necessarily a malicious, cynical conspiracy by design but ambivalent neglect by Tragedy of the Commons for the most part. Except for campaign financing pulling the strings of the political class at the top, that adds a good 90% of the corruption.
- eru 3y agoMoney isn't actually all that important in politics. Including campaign financing. See https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/09/18/too-much-dark-money-in-almonds/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/09/18/too-much-dark-money-in... for some numbers and a deeper analysis. (Also, whenever you hear about some scandal in the news that involves politicians and money, the sums are almost always laughably low compared to eg government budget or compensation for top CEOs in the private sector. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDU_donations_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDU_donations_scandal for a German example.) I agree with the rest of your comment about organisations being made up of different people with different motivations, not a hive mind.
- willcipriano 3y ago[flagged]
- naasking 3y ago> Sometimes it feels like various branches of the US government are set up to sabotage each other. Not sabotage each other, but sabotage people they no longer like.
- fooker 3y agoDirectly yes. In this case though, Spacex is enormously important to US national security and NASA. It's effectively NASA skunkworks.
- chr1 3y agoIf they care so deeply about non-citizens maybe they should pull a Caracalla move and grant citizenship to everyone in their empire?
- subroutine 3y agoOr at least the refugees who are well qualified rocket scientists.
- tempodox 3y agoYour obsession with rocket scientists raises some suspicion.
- subroutine 3y agoYour suspicion of people mentioning rocket scientists in a Space X post raises some suspicions.
- thefounder 3y agoYeah, these from Iran, North Korea, China and Russia should get hired first.
- chr1 3y agoTo be fair among people with appropriate qualification, there are many more americans who think USA is an "evil capitalistic empire" than immigrants who would support in any way the country they have escaped from. Also Soviets got lot's of technologies from communist sympathizers in US, but in the end that did not help them much. So letting SpaceX to handle its trade secrets the way it wants, and hire whomever it wants, is the best way to go.
- crop_rotation 3y agoBy the time Caracalla gave everyone citizenship, roman citizenship was a burden and not the same heavily sought after thing as before. American citizenship is still extremely heavily sought.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- tpmx 3y agoMeanwhile: https://www.nasa.gov/careers/working-with-nasa https://www.nasa.gov/careers/working-with-nasa Other than extremely rare exceptions, you must be a U.S. citizen in order to work for NASA as a civil service employee.
- MrBuddyCasino 3y agoAt least you get to choose between sued for either ITAR or Civil Rights Law violations.
- olliej 3y agoHowever you can (and many do) work for nasa as an employee of a contractor. Working for NASA as a "civil servant" means "are an employee of the federal government", which is a very different thing in employment law. It is also a different thing in terms of compensation: a friend of mine just started working at NASA in Mountain View. They were given two offers for the same job "you work directly for NASA for $60k as an entry level federal employee with federal employee benefits" or "you work for a contractor for 100k and shitty contractor benefits". They went the "I need to pay Bay Area rent" path, but have found that because they aren't "civil servant" they essentially cannot work with other organizations or universities.
- throwaway2037 3y agoHat tip. Good share. Serious question: Are there and well known examples of these exceptions? I cannot believe that anyone with exclusively Five Eyes citizenships would not be accepted.
- realjhol 3y ago[flagged]
- jongjong 3y agoWhat disturbs me the most is that there is a kind of activist aspect behind all the corruption... Apparently a lot of people believe and support these corrupt ideologies and portray the corruption as a kind social service and they keep virtue signaling; essentially bragging about their involvement in censorship and anti-freedom hate-mongering. It's like they expect people to thank them for ruining everything and being be embodiment of evil, insanity and corruption... These people see everything as superficial labels and make no effort to reconcile these labels with reality (quite the opposite). They only care about their social status and winning at all cost within this abstract, elaborate facade of a society they've created. And the number of people involved appears to be substantial based on their influence. There are a lot of insane people out there and they're calling the shots. Something changed in the last few decades. Such people would never have been given any power a few decades years ago.
- amanaplanacanal 3y agoI can’t tell if you are talking about Musk and his supporters or the DOJ.
- 5452454 3y ago[flagged]
- TheGigaChad 3y ago[dead]
- bettercallsalad 3y agoHate to tell you it has always been this way. If you are a person of color, you knew in US there is a two tier Justice system and there is a reason why your parents would tell you to never talk to the police. It is good that only after all these years its now dawning on to others especially people from the right (who would have thought right ). But the bigger point is - selective prosecution, pushing the whole weight of mighty US Justice System to individuals just to overwhelm them knowing fully well this is not typically necessary, special treatment for individuals with axis of connections and credentials - these have been the typical hallmarks of US Justice System. Sooner we rid of this whole “American exceptionalism” concept the better we are to face the reality which is US is no different than other empires that existed on the face of the planet where nation states and those who really rule it override the so called “we the people”. Yes you plebes have rights and what not and get to have some nice things like social services but you piss off the wrong people and do that enough - you will be behind the bar in no time. Protecting civil rights, protecting rule of law etc are just vessel slogans for this nation state to wave its might and protect its most powerful.
- olliej 3y agoAs much as I dislike SpaceX's owner, the phrasing here would seem "reasonable" to me. Remember, Space-X can't use the more "normal"/general "you must be legally permitted to work in the US" because not everyone who can work in the US can work at Space-X, because rockets.
- treme 3y agoJust seems like a politically motivated punishment vs Elon. Out of all the corrupt things US Corps are doing, this is what they are focusing on?
- tpmx 3y agoFrom the DOJ's complaint. Seems to me like it could become quite expensive. https://www.justice.gov/media/1311656/dl?inline https://www.justice.gov/media/1311656/dl?inline THEREFORE, Complainant respectfully requests: ... Order SpaceX to hire applicants who were victims of the discriminatory practices alleged in this Complaint and were qualified for employment; Order SpaceX to pay back pay, including interest, and all other relief available to each individual discriminated against who was qualified and who is found to have suffered uncompensated lost wages due to denied or delayed employment as a result of the discriminatory practices alleged in this Complaint
- wrp 3y agoWould the burden be on the applicants to prove they definitely would have been hired if not for the discrimination?
- iraqmtpizza 3y agoIn a sane world, yes. It could be different in clown world, though, so it is best to consult an attorney which specializes in these matters.
- mgiannopoulos 3y agoI am not a lawyer so who is going to look for these imaginary refugees who didn’t apply for a job because they were discouraged by the wrongly-set job ad? Will the DOJ somehow come up with an estimation of the number of people affected?
- rafram 3y agoRead the complaint. There were specific instances of job applicants being turned away because of this imaginary law. If the DoJ wins the suit, they’ll require SpaceX to look back through their records and put together a full list.
- voxadam 3y agoPreviously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37250388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37250388
- hsjrie 3y ago[flagged]
- bell-cot 3y agoReaction I: This story is only newsworthy "because SpaceX". Reaction II: The statements by the DoJ ("can't discriminate against") and Elan ("at least a green card to be hired") may both be correct...from their respective PoV's: The DoJ is technically right on the law. Vs. Elan knows that any asylees or refugees he hires will, over time, be 100X the legal and security grief that SpaceX has with green cards and citizens - due to everything from Boarder Patrol harassment to the DoD expecting a 5-inch-thick SpaceX Policy manual on how they'll keep any SpaceX employees who the DoD regards with suspicion away from anything slightly sensitive. With said manual backed up by teams of badge-checking security guards, compliance officers, and lawyers - and all on SpaceX's dime.
- partitioned 3y agoIt’s not on their dime. If they are housing sensitive material to keep away they got an extremely lucrative contract that is likely extremely bloated in their favor.
- laurels-marts 3y agoOr they could get that extremely lucrative contract AND not have to deal with all the overhead and hassle that results from hiring non-green card holders. If you could have a rule that tremendously simplifies your hiring process and saves you a lot of headache in the future it makes sense from business perspective, especially when there’s already a lot of grey area.
- foldr 3y agoIf you take government contracts, you have to follow government regulations.
- throwaway2037 3y agoElan knows that any asylees or refugees he hires will, over time, be 100X the legal and security grief that SpaceX has with green cards and citizens Hiring managers who wish to discriminate against physically disabled applicants (and women!) often use the same flawed reasoning. I am glad those laws exist to protect those groups!
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- tomohawk 3y ago[flagged]
- newsclues 3y agoPolitical weaponization of the courts is a pretty dangerous can of worms to open.
- endymi0n 3y agoLooking at recent supreme court rulings in the US, I can‘t even see a lid on the can anymore, and I‘m honestly not even sure there‘s any piece of can left. If the political right does not give a damn about neutral and impartial courts, I guess it‘s fair game to the left as well.
- TheAlchemist 3y agoAt this point, I'm not sure if it's Elon trying to turn everything into a conspiracy theory or journalist are playing dumb. This is nothing burger - this is just basic enforcement of some laws, which happen all the time. Just look at the https://www.justice.gov/news/press-releases https://www.justice.gov/news/press-releases website and search "Justice Department Sues". They sue everybody and their mother - that's their job.
- 5452454 3y ago[flagged]
- LightBug1 3y agohttps://nitter.net/CivilRights https://nitter.net/CivilRights
- steeve 3y agoWhy do you assume it’s the only one targeted?
- TheAlchemist 3y agoDid you read what I've wrote ? They're not "choosing" SpaceX - they're suing a lot of companies, all the time. That's their job. I guess if SpaceX chooses to settle, it will be something around 1M$ fine - peanuts. If you did search their site, you would see, that they also sued pretty much every big company. Microsoft settled in a similar case in 2021... I think everybody agrees that it's a weak case, and it's small one - nothing to write articles about. For some reason, those article are getting written.
- 546575 3y ago[dead]
- INTPenis 3y agoUh what? How is this a problem? I work for a large telco in a former socialist country, where the telco is still 51% owned by the government. We have projects that require you to be a national citizen, and pass a security check of course. They're building SPACE ROCKETS. I would imagine even tighter security.
- rafram 3y agoBuilding rockets doesn’t require citizenship in the US. Refugees and asylees are eligible for employment at SpaceX under US law, but SpaceX falsely claimed that they weren’t. That’s illegal. You can have your own take on what the law should say, but excluding a class of people that the law allows to work for you is illegal discrimination.
- mwenge 3y agoWow the comments in here are revealing and dismaying.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- 5452454 3y ago[flagged]
- pc_edwin 3y agoI know most people on HN heavily lean a certain way but come on, blatant persecution of political enemies.. No matter how you try to rationalise this you know this is wrong. Weaponisation of the judicial branch is what you see in countries we look down on with pity. Hate him all you want, the guy is not a racist or a xenophobe. He would much rather have geniuses from all over the world come work for his company. Even if he set up a very expensive system (probs breaks INA & civil rights) to determine and monitor the legibility of refugees and asylees, he'll still inevitably break ITAR. Most companies that has to follow ITAR does the same thing, this is as cut and dry as it gets when it comes targeted prosecution.
- romusha 3y ago[flagged]
- rtbathula 3y agoAll the private companies have the right make their own choices.
- 45466757 3y ago[dead]
- steeve 3y agoOn the other end of the spectrum of that argument: “we hire white people only” I’m sure you can see this can become a problem. EDIT: why the downvote? You are either for total freedom (including that one) or against (so then you need to draw a line). What’s it gonna be?
- rtbathula 3y agoI am not sure why it's getting downvoted. About we hire white people only: H1B has totally changed the dynamics of the world trade. One of the astrophysicists, Michio Kaku, said, H1B is like a magnet attracting all the best minds in the world. So, I think US is doing good allowing all people.
- havnagiggle 3y agoNational origin is a protected class.
- unixhero 3y agoOr Europeans! They claim we cannot work for SpaceX due to ITAR regulations, that rule warrants US only citizens. Very disappoiting.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- throwaway2037 3y agoDOJ will win. This case looks simple to win. SpaceX will likely get a slap on the wrist, a few million dollar fine, and importantly, change their hiring practices. More exciting would be someone blogging/interviewing after getting a job at SpaceX with this special visa status. I like how barista was one of the jobs used as an example. That seems like a good role for someone who has limited language skills upon arrival as a refugee/asylee. I am sure Starbucks has training manuals in at least 50 different languages!
- nullc 3y agoHm. This is a normal practice for companies that do mostly ITAR work. See also NASA: https://www.nasa.gov/careers/working-with-nasa https://www.nasa.gov/careers/working-with-nasa "Other than extremely rare exceptions, you must be a U.S. citizen in order to work for NASA as a civil service employee." You can google up similar examples at other contractors that mostly do ITAR work. When there are exceptions its mostly in the form of alternative facilities in other countries (which usually require you to be a citizen of those countries).
- tim333 3y agoMusk's comment: DOJ needs to sue themselves! ... I just can’t … roflmao … the irony is too much https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1695484357333631134 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1695484357333631134