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The article does not answer the question(implied) it poses in the title. There is barely an attempt to answer the question. It is a bait and switch. > Lonnie G

The article does not answer the question(implied) it poses in the title. There is barely an attempt to answer the question. It is a bait and switch. > Lonnie Golden, a labor economist at Penn State, said in survey after survey, American workers tend to say that making more money is a higher priority than having access to more paid time off This is close to answering the question, however, it does not address why there is no national PTO law. It explains why workers do not take time off. > Beyond that, Golden said, there’s always been an American discomfort with leisure and time off, and a cultural bias to display our commitment to work as a sign of status. This is closer. As with the first example, this is just explaining why individuals choose not to take time off. The answer is the USA is reluctant to put mandates on employers that would interfere with free association of entities due to our founding being largely influenced by the idea that individuals should be free to make contracts between others. The federal government is also limited in the constitution to only regulating interstate commerce. There are of course many examples where the federal government has ignored this thanks mostly to Wickard v. Filburn (1948). Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn

deleted 3y ago
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theoldlove 3y ago
Not sure your proposed answer is right, but I agree I was hoping for more of an explanation in the article for the US’ unusual position on vacation time.
- echelon 3y ago
  Meta: Why is your comment sorted below the above downvoted (currently appearing in grey) comment?
andsoitis 3y ago
> The answer is the USA is reluctant to put mandates on employers that would interfere with free association of entities due to our founding being largely influenced by the idea that individuals should be free to make contracts between others. Mandating PTO wouldn't be forcing people to make contracts; it would only say that IF you make a particular kind of contract, you need to include the following terms.
- paulmd 3y ago
  You are correct that it would just be another kind of labor regulation, but the us is institutionally biased in favor of employers and against labor protections and it’s always been an uphill battle to enact them here. When they are enacted they are furthermore frequently rolled back or effectively neutered by lobbyist interventions in later congresses. You can speculate and theorize about the reasons why, but the US is almost uniquely hostile to worker protections and benefits among developed countries.
- dantheman 3y ago
  Of course it does it does - people intentionally try to make contracts to provide flexibility around various labor laws and of course the government then tries to reclassify the employment relationship as falling under their purview.
- JamesBarney 3y ago
  It doesn't force people into contracts, but it bans two willing parties from making certain contracts. I've always enjoyed being a contractor because I have unlimited vacation (within reason) and can balance how much time I want to take off with how much money I want to make.
  - andsoitis 3y ago
    > but it bans two willing parties from making certain contracts That’s not in an of itself a bad thing. Other kinds of contracts that are banned include, but are not limited to: - Contracts for the sale or distribution of controlled substances, such as drugs or drug paraphernalia; - Agreements made for illegal activities, such as prostitution or gambling; and. - Employment contracts that permit hiring underage workers.
    - JamesBarney 3y ago
      Sure, I'm not arguing that we don't ban contracts between consenting adults. But I think we should be highly suspicious of them. > - Contracts for the sale or distribution of controlled substances, such as drugs or drug paraphernalia; + Gambling Consent is a gray area due to the addictive nature of the what the buyer is buying. > Prostitution We do ban this, mostly due to I think society finding it icky. >- Employment contracts that permit hiring underage workers. Not between consenting adults.
tauwauwau 3y ago
Its discussed in a recent Planet Money podcast https://www.npr.org/2023/08/17/1194467863/europe-vacation-holiday-paid-time-off https://www.npr.org/2023/08/17/1194467863/europe-vacation-ho...
jandrewrogers 3y ago
This is a good summary, thank you. There is also the (non-obvious to people from other countries) reality that this is the purview of the individual States, the Federal government doesn’t have much jurisdiction here. However, the interesting fact that no States have bothered to legislate it across the entire spectrum of their very diverse politics suggests a more fundamental American view that you allude to. American PTO is insanely diverse in my experience, it varies wildly from one company to the next. You have to ask about it when you join a new company. What I think isn’t obvious, because it is not legislated, is that the variance is really high. Some companies have policies that are extremely generous even by European standards and some are extremely stingy. And then you have random things like summer hours (4 day weeks from May to September), shutting down for a couple weeks around Christmas (fully paid and separate from PTO), etc. It’s all over the map.
- dpig_ 3y ago
  Not American, but for Americans I know who have theoretically limitless PTO - how generous - the reality turns out to be that social pressure and office politics sees workers take even less than they might have in a more limited arrangement.
dclowd9901 3y ago
I too was hoping for a “dig deep” piece that would eventually land on some of the capitalist government theories that drive a lot of this from a lawmaking perspective. It’s so disappointing how shallow reporting has gotten.
burkaman 3y ago
I don't think this really answers the question either. The US has plenty of mandates on employers for things that seem "normal" here, like a minimum wage or maximum working hours or a safe working environment. In many other countries, mandatory PTO is on the same level as these things - for example, PTO is in the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights: https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/article/31-fair-and-just-working-conditions https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/article/31-fair-and-just.... I think we all agree that paid leave is not considered a fundamental right by the majority of Americans, but why not? I feel confident in saying that if paid leave were considered fundamental, the US would make it mandatory. Aversion to legal mandates is not the barrier here.
catlover76 3y ago
Clearly there are a number of federal laws passed by Congress that do impose regulations and restrictions on such free association. Whether or not those things are aligned with some of the views that influenced the drafting of the constitution, the question is why mandated PTO is not among the Federal Government's various such restrictions and regulations.
ponderings 3y ago
I'm told good economists make crazy money and bad ones get a teaching job. He gets his conclusion from US workers (who he refers to as American workers) while in stead he should be wondering why all of the (I'm sure equally greedy) Western countries have these "absurd" vacations. In NL you have to request the vacation way in advance. (Officially it's 2 weeks but then they might turn it down. 6 months in advance is a good idea) The looking forwards to it gradually grows until they have to bring it up every day in ever greater detail. It reminds to request your own, make plans and start their own count down. Secretly it's all about productivity. Like they give you a weekend to recharge for the Monday. Like they let you go home for the night to sleep. Like they give you a lunch break to eat.
orwin 3y ago
I think it just have something to do with how in the US, unions are regulated to be powerless at best, infringe on class warfare at worst. You can't have an union that span over multiple industries, thus unions will only fight for a single group on workers, sometimes against other workers. It makes it impossible to advocate for global labor rights. PTO is an old example, but for a more recent one, if an employer forced me to be available outside of my 40 weekly hours without comp, that would be illegal. I don't have to negociate for it. It's automatic. If your employer control your time, he has to pay you.
sys_64738 3y ago
The USA is a continent sized country where the federal government doesn't control the individual states. State governments control things like PTO so the more liberal a state then the more likely you are to have socialist policies. Yes, PTO is a socialist policy. Right wing states see these types of control as anti-capitalist so the old "reds under the bed" still has a foundation to thrive in. Right wing states don't want any type of workers' rights as it drives up costs and allows labor to organize. Those all impact the capitalist ability to make money as any type of rights cost companies money.
deleted 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago

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theoldlove 3y ago

Not sure your proposed answer is right, but I agree I was hoping for more of an explanation in the article for the US’ unusual position on vacation time.

echelon 3y ago
Meta: Why is your comment sorted below the above downvoted (currently appearing in grey) comment?

andsoitis 3y ago

> The answer is the USA is reluctant to put mandates on employers that would interfere with free association of entities due to our founding being largely influenced by the idea that individuals should be free to make contracts between others. Mandating PTO wouldn't be forcing people to make contracts; it would only say that IF you make a particular kind of contract, you need to include the following terms.

paulmd 3y ago
You are correct that it would just be another kind of labor regulation, but the us is institutionally biased in favor of employers and against labor protections and it’s always been an uphill battle to enact them here. When they are enacted they are furthermore frequently rolled back or effectively neutered by lobbyist interventions in later congresses. You can speculate and theorize about the reasons why, but the US is almost uniquely hostile to worker protections and benefits among developed countries.
dantheman 3y ago
Of course it does it does - people intentionally try to make contracts to provide flexibility around various labor laws and of course the government then tries to reclassify the employment relationship as falling under their purview.
JamesBarney 3y ago
It doesn't force people into contracts, but it bans two willing parties from making certain contracts. I've always enjoyed being a contractor because I have unlimited vacation (within reason) and can balance how much time I want to take off with how much money I want to make.
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > but it bans two willing parties from making certain contracts That’s not in an of itself a bad thing. Other kinds of contracts that are banned include, but are not limited to: - Contracts for the sale or distribution of controlled substances, such as drugs or drug paraphernalia; - Agreements made for illegal activities, such as prostitution or gambling; and. - Employment contracts that permit hiring underage workers.
  - JamesBarney 3y ago
    Sure, I'm not arguing that we don't ban contracts between consenting adults. But I think we should be highly suspicious of them. > - Contracts for the sale or distribution of controlled substances, such as drugs or drug paraphernalia; + Gambling Consent is a gray area due to the addictive nature of the what the buyer is buying. > Prostitution We do ban this, mostly due to I think society finding it icky. >- Employment contracts that permit hiring underage workers. Not between consenting adults.

tauwauwau 3y ago

Its discussed in a recent Planet Money podcast https://www.npr.org/2023/08/17/1194467863/europe-vacation-holiday-paid-time-off https://www.npr.org/2023/08/17/1194467863/europe-vacation-ho...

jandrewrogers 3y ago

This is a good summary, thank you. There is also the (non-obvious to people from other countries) reality that this is the purview of the individual States, the Federal government doesn’t have much jurisdiction here. However, the interesting fact that no States have bothered to legislate it across the entire spectrum of their very diverse politics suggests a more fundamental American view that you allude to. American PTO is insanely diverse in my experience, it varies wildly from one company to the next. You have to ask about it when you join a new company. What I think isn’t obvious, because it is not legislated, is that the variance is really high. Some companies have policies that are extremely generous even by European standards and some are extremely stingy. And then you have random things like summer hours (4 day weeks from May to September), shutting down for a couple weeks around Christmas (fully paid and separate from PTO), etc. It’s all over the map.

dpig_ 3y ago
Not American, but for Americans I know who have theoretically limitless PTO - how generous - the reality turns out to be that social pressure and office politics sees workers take even less than they might have in a more limited arrangement.

dclowd9901 3y ago

I too was hoping for a “dig deep” piece that would eventually land on some of the capitalist government theories that drive a lot of this from a lawmaking perspective. It’s so disappointing how shallow reporting has gotten.

burkaman 3y ago

I don't think this really answers the question either. The US has plenty of mandates on employers for things that seem "normal" here, like a minimum wage or maximum working hours or a safe working environment. In many other countries, mandatory PTO is on the same level as these things - for example, PTO is in the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights: https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/article/31-fair-and-just-working-conditions https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/article/31-fair-and-just.... I think we all agree that paid leave is not considered a fundamental right by the majority of Americans, but why not? I feel confident in saying that if paid leave were considered fundamental, the US would make it mandatory. Aversion to legal mandates is not the barrier here.

catlover76 3y ago

Clearly there are a number of federal laws passed by Congress that do impose regulations and restrictions on such free association. Whether or not those things are aligned with some of the views that influenced the drafting of the constitution, the question is why mandated PTO is not among the Federal Government's various such restrictions and regulations.

ponderings 3y ago

I'm told good economists make crazy money and bad ones get a teaching job. He gets his conclusion from US workers (who he refers to as American workers) while in stead he should be wondering why all of the (I'm sure equally greedy) Western countries have these "absurd" vacations. In NL you have to request the vacation way in advance. (Officially it's 2 weeks but then they might turn it down. 6 months in advance is a good idea) The looking forwards to it gradually grows until they have to bring it up every day in ever greater detail. It reminds to request your own, make plans and start their own count down. Secretly it's all about productivity. Like they give you a weekend to recharge for the Monday. Like they let you go home for the night to sleep. Like they give you a lunch break to eat.

orwin 3y ago

I think it just have something to do with how in the US, unions are regulated to be powerless at best, infringe on class warfare at worst. You can't have an union that span over multiple industries, thus unions will only fight for a single group on workers, sometimes against other workers. It makes it impossible to advocate for global labor rights. PTO is an old example, but for a more recent one, if an employer forced me to be available outside of my 40 weekly hours without comp, that would be illegal. I don't have to negociate for it. It's automatic. If your employer control your time, he has to pay you.

sys_64738 3y ago

The USA is a continent sized country where the federal government doesn't control the individual states. State governments control things like PTO so the more liberal a state then the more likely you are to have socialist policies. Yes, PTO is a socialist policy. Right wing states see these types of control as anti-capitalist so the old "reds under the bed" still has a foundation to thrive in. Right wing states don't want any type of workers' rights as it drives up costs and allows labor to organize. Those all impact the capitalist ability to make money as any type of rights cost companies money.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]